Drugs in rugby

[djpbaltimore]

I am not a big Rugby fan, but I did watch the Semis and Finals of the recent Rugby World Cup. With that in mind, I was amazed at how small some of the Rugby players were in the highlight reel of Lomu. Some of them looked like they could suit up for a Futbol match.

 

[levione]

Re: Re:

1995 lomu is certainly not small in comparison to modern wingers. He was 6 feet 5 and 120 k.

The only winger larger in 2015 is Nadolo at 125, and from watching him, one could assume that a lot of that is fat. As for speed he's nowhere near Lomu.
Great NZ wingers since Lomu include Savea (around 105) and Rokocoko (110). No other major nation has wingers any bigger.

I have no doubts that drugs riddle top level sports. For people to be debating whether or not a man who died this morning was part of that problem is little other than sick.

 

[wansteadimp]

Plenty of research linking steroid use with the 'rare kidney disorder nephrotic syndrome' that killed Lomu.

In a study presented recently to the annual meeting of the American Society of Nephrology in San Diego, researchers looked at a small number of bodybuilders who had documented long-term abuse of anabolic steroids and subsequent kidney complications.
Among the 10 men, some had proteinuria, or high levels of protein in the urine, as well as renal insufficiency, or poor kidney function caused by reduced blood flow to the kidneys. Five had full nephrotic syndrome, indicated by proteinuria, low levels of protein in the blood, and high cholesterol. Nine had focal segmental glomerulosclerosis, or scarring in the kidneys.

http://www.drugfreesport.com/newsroom/insight.asp?VolID=49&TopicID=4

My query with this would be that Lomu had a transplant in 2004. The NZ Herald article posted by Dear Wiggo suggests that the disease was on going at his death which suggests that the second kidneys were affected too. I would hope that after the transplant he wouldn't be doping (though he did attempt a comeback so who knows) so I would have thought it was more likely to be caused by a disease than the dope. Unless the disease isn't ongoing and the current issue was a rejection of the transplanted kidneys.

 

[Brad Lamb]

If PED's are the cause (or a contributing factor) to the tragic ending of Lomu's life, I believe that it is more likely to be hGH along with the numerous steroids that is endemic in both branches of rugby.

Given the nature that enhanced performance in a sport such as rugby will be strength, body mass/power and endurance, it seems to me that hGH and steroids (and more than likely blood doping) will expedite performance above just training alone. Creatine is a red herring especially for an elite pro.

The side effects of hGH abuse is well known, but with vital organs such as the heart, liver and kidneys being subjected to excessive growth, one can't be blamed for having a cynical viewpoint considering that this abuse will lead to (potentially) the life-threatening issue of cardiomyopathy, which is a disease of the heart muscle.

As Lomu suffered from kidney problems throughout his career and died of cardiac issues one will naturally come to this conclusion.

This unfortunately is pro level sport in today's age where one cannot ignore an athlete with a kidney disease that had a physiological body composition not seen for a 20 year old making their international debut, dying of a heart attack playing in a sport rife with performance enhancing drug abuse.

I hope though this is just conjecture on my part.

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

1995 lomu is certainly not small in comparison to modern wingers. He was 6 feet 5 and 120 k.

The only winger larger in 2015 is Nadolo at 125, and from watching him, one could assume that a lot of that is fat. As for speed he's nowhere near Lomu.
Great NZ wingers since Lomu include Savea (around 105) and Rokocoko (110). No other major nation has wingers any bigger. Mind people on here don't often let facts get in the way of a good story.

I have no doubts that drugs riddle top level sports. For people to be debating whether or not a man who died this morning was part of that problem is little other than sick.

This.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I have no doubts that drugs riddle top level sports. For people to be debating whether or not a man who died this morning was part of that problem is little other than sick.

unctuous.

we dont know the player from NZ, he is basically a cypher. If you were this person's friend, we are not his friend, we do not know him, and we do not speak of a person from this perspective and touchstone, he is merely a cypher where we can explicate issue of PEDs in rugby

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

1995 lomu is certainly not small in comparison to modern wingers. He was 6 feet 5 and 120 k.

The only winger larger in 2015 is Nadolo at 125, and from watching him, one could assume that a lot of that is fat. As for speed he's nowhere near Lomu.
Great NZ wingers since Lomu include Savea (around 105) and Rokocoko (110). No other major nation has wingers any bigger. Mind people on here don't often let facts get in the way of a good story.

I have no doubts that drugs riddle top level sports. For people to be debating whether or not a man who died this morning was part of that problem is little other than sick.

Wouldn't using his death to try and score internet points against people you have a totally unrelated beef against, be just as sick?

 

[Zebadeedee]

The significance of Lomu was that he was a freak of nature. He wasn't just huge but fast with it. Lomu wouldn't have the same impact today though imo as both defence systems have improved plus much bigger athletes are now routinely playing in the line. Burgess, at the last world cup, was broadly the same size, weight and stature as Lomu although probably (I'm guessing), still not quite as fast.

Lomu was diagnosed with his medical condition when he was twenty or twenty one if that throws any light.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Dont know if Lomu ever took any substance to enhance his carreer but he was by far the most enjoyed player around.

His death is just sad.

 

[levione]

1995 lomu is certainly not small in comparison to modern wingers. He was 6 feet 5 and 120 k.

The only winger larger in 2015 is Nadolo at 125, and from watching him, one could assume that a lot of that is fat. As for speed he's nowhere near Lomu.
Great NZ wingers since Lomu include Savea (around 105) and Rokocoko (110). No other major nation has wingers any bigger. Mind people on here don't often let facts get in the way of a good story.

I have no doubts that drugs riddle top level sports. For people to be debating whether or not a man who died this morning was part of that problem is little other than sick.

Wouldn't using his death to try and score internet points against people you have a totally unrelated beef against, be just as sick?

Debating the size of the man cannot be equated to attempting to drag his reputation through the mud. So the answer is no.

 

[slowspoke]

He was a freak. He would look normal now. I have worked with many an All Black old and new. No comparison. Indeed I would argue Jonah started the arms race.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/jonah-lomu-dead-records-show-new-zealand-legend-won-10-out-of-13-events-at-his-college-athletics-a6738771.html

 

[Zebadeedee]

Worked in what capacity?

Incidentally, at school it's not uncommon for odd individuals to mature physically before others to the point they become dominant at school sports. However, this doesn't predict eventual freakiness as an adult. I was at school with one such person who later featured at Rosslyn Park and briefly made the England team as a full cap before sinking without trace.

 

[slowspoke]

Re:

Worked in what capacity?

Incidentally, at school it's not uncommon for odd individuals to mature physically before others to the point they become dominant at school sports. However, this doesn't predict eventual freakiness as an adult. I was at school with one such person who later featured at Rosslyn Park and briefly made the England team as a full cap before sinking without trace.

I work in media in New Zealand. Please have a look through my earlier posts for more details. As for your freaks, I went to school with Jason White, Scottish Rugby captain. He was 6"2 when he was twelve. 6"2 of muscle as well. Again, now small in comparison! Remember, Jonah was the start of real professionalism, before there money to be made. The more money, the bigger the incentive. Yes, I know was doping before but nothing I've heard, suggests he was....

 

[unclem0nty]

Plenty of research linking steroid use with the 'rare kidney disorder nephrotic syndrome' that killed Lomu.

In a study presented recently to the annual meeting of the American Society of Nephrology in San Diego, researchers looked at a small number of bodybuilders who had documented long-term abuse of anabolic steroids and subsequent kidney complications.
Among the 10 men, some had proteinuria, or high levels of protein in the urine, as well as renal insufficiency, or poor kidney function caused by reduced blood flow to the kidneys. Five had full nephrotic syndrome, indicated by proteinuria, low levels of protein in the blood, and high cholesterol. Nine had focal segmental glomerulosclerosis, or scarring in the kidneys.

http://www.drugfreesport.com/newsroom/insight.asp?VolID=49&TopicID=4

My query with this would be that Lomu had a transplant in 2004. The NZ Herald article posted by Dear Wiggo suggests that the disease was on going at his death which suggests that the second kidneys were affected too. I would hope that after the transplant he wouldn't be doping (though he did attempt a comeback so who knows) so I would have thought it was more likely to be caused by a disease than the dope. Unless the disease isn't ongoing and the current issue was a rejection of the transplanted kidneys.

Transplanted kidneys don't generally last more than 10 or 15 years. Lomu's replacement kidney just conked out in the usual fashion - he was on the waiting list for another.

 

[buckle]

Plenty of research linking steroid use with the 'rare kidney disorder nephrotic syndrome' that killed Lomu.

In a study presented recently to the annual meeting of the American Society of Nephrology in San Diego, researchers looked at a small number of bodybuilders who had documented long-term abuse of anabolic steroids and subsequent kidney complications.
Among the 10 men, some had proteinuria, or high levels of protein in the urine, as well as renal insufficiency, or poor kidney function caused by reduced blood flow to the kidneys. Five had full nephrotic syndrome, indicated by proteinuria, low levels of protein in the blood, and high cholesterol. Nine had focal segmental glomerulosclerosis, or scarring in the kidneys.

http://www.drugfreesport.com/newsroom/insight.asp?VolID=49&TopicID=4

My query with this would be that Lomu had a transplant in 2004. The NZ Herald article posted by Dear Wiggo suggests that the disease was on going at his death which suggests that the second kidneys were affected too. I would hope that after the transplant he wouldn't be doping (though he did attempt a comeback so who knows) so I would have thought it was more likely to be caused by a disease than the dope. Unless the disease isn't ongoing and the current issue was a rejection of the transplanted kidneys.

My dad died in 1966 at the age of 35 from it. It is a debilitating disease. It would be wrong to suggest that doping is responsible. Lomu was a game changer and an outlier. In order to compete rivals had to dope. Therein lies the problem.

Back in 1996, Wigan played in the RU 7's tournament at Twickenham and were astonishing. I suspect that RL teams were in advance of RU in respect of doping. RU has caught up and even surpassed RL.

 

[Zebadeedee]

Buckle wrote:-

"My dad died in 1966 at the age of 35 from it. It is a debilitating disease. It would be wrong to suggest that doping is responsible. Lomu was a game changer and an outlier. In order to compete rivals had to dope. Therein lies the problem."

It is not wrong to suggest anything if the evidence is there even if it's just a tiny, inferential scrap. What's wrong, generally, is to presume someone is doping or clean even, without any evidence. Time and again ostensibly clean athletes with a squeaky clean public image turn out to be dirty. Carl Lewis would be an example.

Personally, I don't believe Lomu did dope. Equally, if it became clear later that he did, it would not surprise either.

 

[blackcat]

Buckle wrote:-

"My dad died in 1966 at the age of 35 from it. It is a debilitating disease. It would be wrong to suggest that doping is responsible. Lomu was a game changer and an outlier. In order to compete rivals had to dope. Therein lies the problem."

It is not wrong to suggest anything if the evidence is there even if it's just a tiny, inferential scrap. What's wrong, generally, is to presume someone is doping or clean even, without any evidence. Time and again ostensibly clean athletes with a squeaky clean public image turn out to be dirty. Carl Lewis would be an example.

Personally, I don't believe Lomu did dope. Equally, if it became clear later that he did, it would not surprise either.

yeah, I dont believe he didnt dope. They were all doing it. He would have to be the minority who did not partake, not plausible.

as DW would say, "good grief". or "sounds legit"

 

[unclem0nty]

Had a hollow laugh reading the BBC's Lomu obituary:

There have probably been four other sportsmen who have shifted the paradigm in the last 50 years. Muhammad Ali did it with his speed and sweet mouth in heavyweight boxing. Michael Jordan revolutionised basketball with his air and all-court ambition, Tiger Woods golf with first his strength and then his relentless finesse. Usain Bolt saved sprinting from the dogs and dragged it to the heavens.

Lomu is in their company. There had been big wingers before and fast ones. Never before had those talents coalesced in the same man: 6ft 5in, 19 stone, capable of running 100m in 10.8 seconds.

I think we all know how Lomu's more recent predecessors on that list went about shifting them paradigms. The manner in which his own abilities are described is hardly helpful either.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

1995 lomu is certainly not small in comparison to modern wingers. He was 6 feet 5 and 120 k.

The only winger larger in 2015 is Nadolo at 125, and from watching him, one could assume that a lot of that is fat. As for speed he's nowhere near Lomu.
Great NZ wingers since Lomu include Savea (around 105) and Rokocoko (110). No other major nation has wingers any bigger. Mind people on here don't often let facts get in the way of a good story.

I have no doubts that drugs riddle top level sports. For people to be debating whether or not a man who died this morning was part of that problem is little other than sick.

Wouldn't using his death to try and score internet points against people you have a totally unrelated beef against, be just as sick?

Debating the size of the man cannot be equated to attempting to drag his reputation through the mud. So the answer is no.

But you weren't just debating the size of the man. You couldn't resist using it as an opportunity to take a pot shot at the existence of the clinic.

Its ok for you to exploit people's deaths but not for others?

 

[beatthatrat]

Re: Re:

1995 lomu is certainly not small in comparison to modern wingers. He was 6 feet 5 and 120 k.

The only winger larger in 2015 is Nadolo at 125, and from watching him, one could assume that a lot of that is fat. As for speed he's nowhere near Lomu.
Great NZ wingers since Lomu include Savea (around 105) and Rokocoko (110). No other major nation has wingers any bigger. Mind people on here don't often let facts get in the way of a good story.

I have no doubts that drugs riddle top level sports. For people to be debating whether or not a man who died this morning was part of that problem is little other than sick.

Wouldn't using his death to try and score internet points against people you have a totally unrelated beef against, be just as sick?

Debating the size of the man cannot be equated to attempting to drag his reputation through the mud. So the answer is no.

But you weren't just debating the size of the man. You couldn't resist using it as an opportunity to take a pot shot at the existence of the clinic.

Its ok for you to exploit people's deaths but not for others?

I see no "pot shots at the existence of the clinic" in what he/she wrote at all. The clinic contains many opinions and it is allowed to disagree with some of those that are being aired.
I can't make sense of your logic in equating both points of view.

 

[buckle]

It's an unnecessary distraction to blame Lomu's medical condition on doping. It is also offensive at a human level. There are plenty of alarming rumours emanating from this sport without resorting to attacking a prematurely dead, retired rugby player...

I am curious that more and more Englishmen are surviving in the NRL. Either the English have caught up or the Australians have cut back the gear. I fancy the latter.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

It's an unnecessary distraction to blame Lomu's medical condition on doping.

I showed that there were warnings to the NZers in 1995 to be careful with creatine, that one of the players at the time had the exact same disease allegedly due to creatine that Lomu contracted some years later.

I am sorry you can't put 2+2 together.

If you don't like doping talk, might I suggest other areas of this forum?

 

[Catwhoorg]

It's an unnecessary distraction to blame Lomu's medical condition on doping. It is also offensive at a human level. There are plenty of alarming rumours emanating from this sport without resorting to attacking a prematurely dead, retired rugby player...

I am curious that more and more Englishmen are surviving in the NRL. Either the English have caught up or the Australians have cut back the gear. I fancy the latter.

The evidence from UKAD suggests the former.

RU is the most tested positive sport in the UK, RL is the second.

 

[The Hitch]

Lomu's condition may very well have had nothing to do with doping. I don't see the problem.with discussing it though if people want to. It's not like it's some out of wack conspiracy theory. We are talking about one of the most physiologicaly gifted athletes in history who rose to prominence during a very doped era in a very very doped sport.

While I sympathize with the idea that you don't want to cause hurt to the bereaved's family, so soon after the death, it is unlikely in the extreme that any of them will ever find this place. As some people keep reminding us all the time, no one reads the clinic anyway.

There are far worse things out there on the internet. Death is a part of life. People discuss these things all the time in real life.

 

[durianrider]

100% juiced to the gills.