Drugs in rugby

[Benotti69]

Neil Francis is a clown unfortunately. It speaks to his character that he'd be first vulture on the scene after Lomu's death.
His piece seems targeted at mummy and daddy bringing the kids to rugby training. Creatine is a hugely common recovery product sold in massive tubs on every highstreet so his angle seems to be that it needs to be policed better. Which is fair enough.
Creatine is also totally legal as a supplement though so I don't understand why people feel it besmirches Lomu's reputation that he might've took it. I'd think that every high-level rugby player takes it or something similar to it. Like everything else it's not healthy to use it to excess. It's a bit mean-spirited to use a person's death to illustrate a point that everyone knows anyway.

Neil Francis is no clown.

Moore, Fortheringhams, Rogers etc are clowns.

If Lomu's easrly death was caused due to the misuse of substances than Neil Francis is doing kids (and their parents) a massive favour by flagging up a warning.

But you cant see that instead shoot the messenger.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/neil-francis-on-jonah-lomu-a-life-lost-needlessly-34222682.html

You may be interested in this.

Any article citing the number of google hits to support a theory is in murky waters, further muddied by the old "I'm only asking questions" routine.

Indeed; google 'coffee cancer' and you get 106,000,000 hits yet most (including myself) continue to drink the stuff!

Junk journalism

Shoot the messenger!

You would be one of those who believed the cigarette manufacturers when they told everone and rolled out scientists for years with the message that smoking is harmless.

Taking creatine to bulk up is not natural. Creatine is a chemical, not a natural product. Taking too much could be harmful, but to dismiss it out of hand as junk journalism, yeah sure.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/neil-francis-on-jonah-lomu-a-life-lost-needlessly-34222682.html

You may be interested in this.

Any article citing the number of google hits to support a theory is in murky waters, further muddied by the old "I'm only asking questions" routine.

Indeed; google 'coffee cancer' and you get 106,000,000 hits yet most (including myself) continue to drink the stuff!

Junk journalism

Shoot the messenger!

You would be one of those who believed the cigarette manufacturers when they told everone and rolled out scientists for years with the message that smoking is harmless.

Taking creatine to bulk up is not natural. Creatine is a chemical, not a natural product. Taking too much could be harmful, but to dismiss it out of hand as junk journalism, yeah sure.

You may want to look that up...

 

[djpbaltimore]

KB is right on that count. The reason that creatine is not regulated by the FDA is that it is a natural product and can be marketed as a supplement. The body can synthesize it from two amino acids building blocks and it is present in all vertebrates. If it was regulated, we would know more about the potential side effects. What is known in the scientific literature is that is relatively safe at reasonable doses of 5-20 grams per day. That is a huge caveat as too often people follow the 'more is better' mantra.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/neil-francis-on-jonah-lomu-a-life-lost-needlessly-34222682.html

You may be interested in this.

Any article citing the number of google hits to support a theory is in murky waters, further muddied by the old "I'm only asking questions" routine.

Indeed; google 'coffee cancer' and you get 106,000,000 hits yet most (including myself) continue to drink the stuff!

Junk journalism

Shoot the messenger!

You would be one of those who believed the cigarette manufacturers when they told everone and rolled out scientists for years with the message that smoking is harmless.

Taking creatine to bulk up is not natural. Creatine is a chemical, not a natural product. Taking too much could be harmful, but to dismiss it out of hand as junk journalism, yeah sure.

You may want to look that up...

The creatine bought in powder form and you add water too is a natural product?

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

KB is right on that count. The reason that creatine is not regulated by the FDA is that it is a natural product and can be marketed as a supplement. The body can synthesize it from two amino acids building blocks and it is present in all vertebrates. If it was regulated, we would know more about the potential side effects. What is known in the scientific literature is that is relatively safe at reasonable doses of 5-20 grams per day. That is a huge caveat as too often people follow the 'more is better' mantra.

One thing we do know. People all react differently to different things. Some people for example are allergic to nuts.

For some creatine might not have any long lasting effects, for others it may destroy their system and do long lasting damage.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

KB is right on that count. The reason that creatine is not regulated by the FDA is that it is a natural product and can be marketed as a supplement. The body can synthesize it from two amino acids building blocks and it is present in all vertebrates. If it was regulated, we would know more about the potential side effects. What is known in the scientific literature is that is relatively safe at reasonable doses of 5-20 grams per day. That is a huge caveat as too often people follow the 'more is better' mantra.

One thing we do know. People all react differently to different things. Some people for example are allergic to nuts.

For some creatine might not have any long lasting effects, for others it may destroy their system and do long lasting damage.

Avoid comparing it to allergic reactions, the two are in no way equivalent. Creatine is essential to healthy life, disorders of the creatine metabolism pathway result in sever neurological effects.


There's a lot of circumstantial evidence that large amounts of supplemental creatine are dangerous. But I can't find any systematic reviews proving it.

 

[djpbaltimore]

True, we really don't know the long-term side effects of taking creatine, especially if used above the recommended doses. That is also true of any drug put out on the market after FDA approval. Due to small sample sizes, clinical studies do not have enough power to pick up the rare side effects and the small increases in incidence of things like heart disease. That is why drugs are monitored closely after mass release and pulled when unforeseen side-effects manifest (e.g Vioxx). Unfortunately, drugs are monitored much better than supplements.

 

[beatthatrat]

Yeah but you don't have people sermonising about the murkiness of eating nuts the day after someone goes into anaphyllactic (sp?) shock.
I agree that Fotheringham, Moore etc are clowns. Unfortunately Neil Francis tops them all. Like a stopped clock, he can be right on occasion but in general he is clownish.

 

[blackcat]

Neil Francis is a clown unfortunately. It speaks to his character that he'd be first vulture on the scene after Lomu's death.
His piece seems targeted at mummy and daddy bringing the kids to rugby training. Creatine is a hugely common recovery product sold in massive tubs on every highstreet so his angle seems to be that it needs to be policed better. Which is fair enough.
Creatine is also totally legal as a supplement though so I don't understand why people feel it besmirches Lomu's reputation that he might've took it. I'd think that every high-level rugby player takes it or something similar to it. Like everything else it's not healthy to use it to excess. It's a bit mean-spirited to use a person's death to illustrate a point that everyone knows anyway.

I thought it was less a recovery product and more just for performance with respect to ATP. yes, you may deplete ATP stores, and creatine aids in replenishing it, but recovery product?

 

[beatthatrat]

Neil Francis is a clown unfortunately. It speaks to his character that he'd be first vulture on the scene after Lomu's death.
His piece seems targeted at mummy and daddy bringing the kids to rugby training. Creatine is a hugely common recovery product sold in massive tubs on every highstreet so his angle seems to be that it needs to be policed better. Which is fair enough.
Creatine is also totally legal as a supplement though so I don't understand why people feel it besmirches Lomu's reputation that he might've took it. I'd think that every high-level rugby player takes it or something similar to it. Like everything else it's not healthy to use it to excess. It's a bit mean-spirited to use a person's death to illustrate a point that everyone knows anyway.

I thought it was less a recovery product and more just for performance with respect to ATP. yes, you may deplete ATP stores, and creatine aids in replenishing it, but recovery product?

Fair enough - nutritional product is probably a better description although I don't like it.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/neil-francis-on-jonah-lomu-a-life-lost-needlessly-34222682.html

You may be interested in this.

Any article citing the number of google hits to support a theory is in murky waters, further muddied by the old "I'm only asking questions" routine.

Indeed; google 'coffee cancer' and you get 106,000,000 hits yet most (including myself) continue to drink the stuff!

Junk journalism

Shoot the messenger!

You would be one of those who believed the cigarette manufacturers when they told everone and rolled out scientists for years with the message that smoking is harmless.

Taking creatine to bulk up is not natural. Creatine is a chemical, not a natural product. Taking too much could be harmful, but to dismiss it out of hand as junk journalism, yeah sure.

You may want to look that up...

The creatine bought in powder form and you add water too is a natural product?

This feels like you're going to go down the same route as natural sugar versus added sugar...

I have no idea how they make it and your body doesn't care. There is no difference between creatine made in a lab or creatine found in your body.

 

[King Boonen]

Neil Francis is a clown unfortunately. It speaks to his character that he'd be first vulture on the scene after Lomu's death.
His piece seems targeted at mummy and daddy bringing the kids to rugby training. Creatine is a hugely common recovery product sold in massive tubs on every highstreet so his angle seems to be that it needs to be policed better. Which is fair enough.
Creatine is also totally legal as a supplement though so I don't understand why people feel it besmirches Lomu's reputation that he might've took it. I'd think that every high-level rugby player takes it or something similar to it. Like everything else it's not healthy to use it to excess. It's a bit mean-spirited to use a person's death to illustrate a point that everyone knows anyway.

I thought it was less a recovery product and more just for performance with respect to ATP. yes, you may deplete ATP stores, and creatine aids in replenishing it, but recovery product?

I think current thinking is it supplements it rather than replenishes it, so it provides a higher base level of creatine than would otherwise be possible through biological synthesis.

 

[unclem0nty]

Given that researchers have linked steroid abuse with (kidney-destroying) nephrotic syndrome, and given that steroids have a far greater performance-enhancing potential than creatine, this all sounds like a big fat red herring to me. The hoary old 'legal supplements' defence.

 

[blackcat]

as the devi's advocate in Jona Lomu's favour, when he took up bodybuilding for a recreation and competition, he really did not dope up by the looks of his physique...

 

[Nellyspania]

Re: Re:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/neil-francis-on-jonah-lomu-a-life-lost-needlessly-34222682.html

You may be interested in this.

Any article citing the number of google hits to support a theory is in murky waters, further muddied by the old "I'm only asking questions" routine.

Indeed; google 'coffee cancer' and you get 106,000,000 hits yet most (including myself) continue to drink the stuff!

Junk journalism

Shoot the messenger!

You would be one of those who believed the cigarette manufacturers when they told everone and rolled out scientists for years with the message that smoking is harmless.

Taking creatine to bulk up is not natural. Creatine is a chemical, not a natural product. Taking too much could be harmful, but to dismiss it out of hand as junk journalism, yeah sure.

Kindly do not cast aspersions on my character because I have a low opinion of a newspaper article!

The article is sloppy IMHO; he infers that Lomu possibly took creatine, which possibly could have led to kidney damage.

 

[Zebadeedee]

Insulin is a natural hormone. Injecting lots of it will kill you.

 

[Nellyspania]

Re:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-34902105

 

[Cake]

It is completely credible that 'roid abuse is rife at amateur level, but that there are no 'roids at pro level where there is more money, should one want to buy said 'roids.

In other news, my backside is a fire engine.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

It is completely credible that 'roid abuse is rife at amateur level, but that there are no 'roids at pro level where there is more money, should one want to buy said 'roids.

In other news, my backside is a fire engine.

And a might fine caboose at that.

It's incredible that the guys with the connections, money and motivation to dope refrain, while the guys with less money, far fewer connections and no real need to are going at it hammer and tong.

Hammer. And tong.

It's like a pyramid resting on its apex.

it makes no sense.

 

[The Carrot]

BBC breakfast had a former Welsh Rugby Captain on this morning talking about this.

He was thoroughly 'on message' with 'it's a problem at the lower levels where people think they'll not get caught' and 'it's people who take steroids for body image reasons who also play rugby'.

WTF?

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

BBC breakfast had a former Welsh Rugby Captain on this morning talking about this.

He was thoroughly 'on message' with 'it's a problem at the lower levels where people think they'll not get caught' and 'it's people who take steroids for body image reasons who also play rugby'.

WTF?

Learning from cycling. Roche, verbruggen and many others always cited the dopers as guys with no talent and at the back of the peloton.

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

BBC breakfast had a former Welsh Rugby Captain on this morning talking about this.

He was thoroughly 'on message' with 'it's a problem at the lower levels where people think they'll not get caught' and 'it's people who take steroids for body image reasons who also play rugby'.

WTF?

The article brings up a really interesting quote from UKAD chief executive Nicole Sapstead:

I think if people really want to cheat the system then they'll find a way

 

[Benotti69]

East Germany were introducing doping to up to 2000 athletes every year from 1968 to 1988, that equals nearly 40,000.

Lots have kidney failure due to steroid abuse. Others with cancers. Some have had to undergo sex change operations due to the doping abuse. Most started at age 14 some as early as 12.

There was an interview on 'Offtheball' this evening with Prof Dr Werner Franke who found the documentation that documented the doping and i will post a link as soon they put it up.

Edit:link

http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/Off_The_Ball/Off_The_Ball_Highlights/114571/

 

[Catwhoorg]

http://www.ukad.org.uk/news/article/world-rugby-confirms-rugby-world-cup-2015-anti-doping-results/

468 Total samples related to RWC 2015
200 IC, 268 OOC

317 Urine
151 Blood (including ABP samples)