Drugs in rugby

[Bernie's eyesore]

It's an unnecessary distraction to blame Lomu's medical condition on doping.

I showed that there were warnings to the NZers in 1995 to be careful with creatine, that one of the players at the time had the exact same disease allegedly due to creatine that Lomu contracted some years later.

I am sorry you can't put 2+2 together.

If you don't like doping talk, might I suggest other areas of this forum?

Strange that you never brought it up before. Lomu's condition has been public knowledge since 1996. Why didn't you raise this issue before?

 

[buckle]

It's an unnecessary distraction to blame Lomu's medical condition on doping. It is also offensive at a human level. There are plenty of alarming rumours emanating from this sport without resorting to attacking a prematurely dead, retired rugby player...

I am curious that more and more Englishmen are surviving in the NRL. Either the English have caught up or the Australians have cut back the gear. I fancy the latter.

The evidence from UKAD suggests the former.

RU is the most tested positive sport in the UK, RL is the second.

That is interesting. I watched a clip of the Canterbury Bulldogs from 10 years ago with Mark "Shrek" O'Meley, Willie Mason and the very young SBW. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I speculated that perhaps the NRL had placed pressure on the clubs following recent exposés. The net result being that English players were less disadvantaged in the contemporary game. Pure speculation on my part that Super League has always played doping catch-up with the NRL. I further sense that perhaps NRL standards are the lowest they have been in decades.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

It's an unnecessary distraction to blame Lomu's medical condition on doping.

I showed that there were warnings to the NZers in 1995 to be careful with creatine, that one of the players at the time had the exact same disease allegedly due to creatine that Lomu contracted some years later.

I am sorry you can't put 2+2 together.

If you don't like doping talk, might I suggest other areas of this forum?

Strange that you never brought it up before. Lomu's condition has been public knowledge since 1996. Why didn't you raise this issue before?

What are you on about? Try to stick to the topic yeah? You've been a member long enough to know the rules.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

It's an unnecessary distraction to blame Lomu's medical condition on doping.

I showed that there were warnings to the NZers in 1995 to be careful with creatine, that one of the players at the time had the exact same disease allegedly due to creatine that Lomu contracted some years later.

I am sorry you can't put 2+2 together.

If you don't like doping talk, might I suggest other areas of this forum?

Strange that you never brought it up before. Lomu's condition has been public knowledge since 1996. Why didn't you raise this issue before?

What are you on about? Try to stick to the topic yeah? You've been a member long enough to know the rules.

I haven't broken any rules. Why don't you just answer my perfectly valid question?

 

[gooner]

It's an unnecessary distraction to blame Lomu's medical condition on doping.

I showed that there were warnings to the NZers in 1995 to be careful with creatine, that one of the players at the time had the exact same disease allegedly due to creatine that Lomu contracted some years later.

I am sorry you can't put 2+2 together.

If you don't like doping talk, might I suggest other areas of this forum?

Strange that you never brought it up before. Lomu's condition has been public knowledge since 1996. Why didn't you raise this issue before?

What are you on about? Try to stick to the topic yeah? You've been a member long enough to know the rules.

I haven't broken any rules. Why don't you just answer my perfectly valid question?

Because he can't.

 

[gooner]

The idea that just because his family mightn't be reading the clinic, means the discussion should legitimately continue on innuendo grounds is preposterous. This should be a clear cut issue of perspective.

And yes, questioning the timing of this discussion is a perfectly fair question.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

The idea that just because his family mightn't be reading the clinic, means the discussion should legitimately continue on innuendo grounds is preposterous. This should be a clear cut issue of perspective.

And yes, questioning the timing of this discussion is a perfectly fair question.

If you read the article which Dear Wiggo used as evidence that Lomu's kidney condition was caused by doping you'll see that the article is a load of sensationalist nonsense and provides no actual scientific evidence of a link between the use of creatine and kidney problems whatsoever. Indeed, a quick search came up with plenty of articles which suggest there is no evidence to suggest the use of creatine can cause kidney disease although it can make existing kidney problems worse. Here are two.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/layne22.htm

Opponents of creatine supplementation also like to state that creatine is hard on the kidneys and can cause kidney damage with long term use. Once again, there is no scientific evidence to back up their claims. There is scientific evidence to refute these claims however. A new study examined whether or not oral creatine supplementation affected the kidneys of athletes over short-, medium-, and long-term periods of supplementation. The researchers concluded that "no detrimental effects on athletes' kidney functions from short-, medium-, or long-term use of this supplement (8)." Jeff Volek, a doctoral student at the Center for Sports Medicine at Pennsylvania State University recently completed a study that found no negative side effects to creatine use states, "because it is a naturally occurring compound, side effects are not as likely... and it has been proven to be readily handled by the kidneys(4)".

http://examine.com/faq/does-creatine-cause-kidney-problems/

For those with healthy kidneys: No. For those with impaired kidney function, it is highly unlikely but one should still check with their medical doctor.

Please see our Creatine rubric for human clinical studies on the kidney. The net result was that even with one kidney, creatine had no negative effect on the kidneys. This is a topic that has been replicated numerous times in different populations by different researchers, and yet not a single peer-reviewed study or case report has surfaced where creatine is the causative factor behind kidney damage.

In one study, an individual with one kidney that was slightly damaged was loaded with 20g of Creatine a day and no problems were found.[1]

There is some confusion regarding the kidneys with the metabolite (waste product) of creatine, called 'creatinine', which is also a diagnostic criteria for kidney problems. This is a case of a supplement giving a 'false positive' and is in no way harmful, and can be read up more on our creatine disambiguation section.


It's obviously possible that Lomu took creatine and made his existing kidney problems worse but there is no evidence to suggest this. We will never know either way.

 

[blackcat]

think charles yesalis is at penn state

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Another thing, if Lomu's condition had been caused by taking a perfectly legal supplement, wouldn't it be likely that he would have used his high profile to warn people of the dangers. After all, there was no reason for him to cover up his use of creatine as he brokes no rules by taking it.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Re:

think charles yesalis is at penn state

I have no idea of the reliabilty or the credibility of those two articles although there are plenty more out there saying the same thing. They certainly have far more substance to them than a sensationalist, outdated eleven year old article which has been used to dishonour the memory of a man who had died only hours before.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

think charles yesalis is at penn state

I have no idea of the reliabilty or the credibility of those two articles although there are plenty more out there saying the same thing. They certainly have far more substance to them than a sensationalist, outdated eleven year old article which has been used to dishonour the memory of a man who had died only hours before.

the thing is, many on this forum, dont see this a significant character flaw, and it besmirching Lomu and his legacy.

no one asserts overwhelming proof and knowledge, I dont think anyone is smearing anyone.

It is only people who come on here, and project their own worldview and concept of drugs and PEDs = bad, and this is indicting one individual. well guess what, it aint.

And if folks profess this worldview, yet maintain a wish for a solution, they cannot see in the mirror that they are indeed the problem, they cannot handle straighttalking and an honest appraisal of the playing field and culture.

it is a paradox that people maintaing PEDs are evil, that this forces doping under the rug, and there cannot be some amorphous solution, whatever a solution would entail. I could not define a solution, I have no idea what a solution would be. I do not even necessarily assume a need for a solution. For a solution to be needed, would require a problem to be defined and to exist. Folks are too quick to bury doping under a 1 tonne rug.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Re: Re:

think charles yesalis is at penn state

I have no idea of the reliabilty or the credibility of those two articles although there are plenty more out there saying the same thing. They certainly have far more substance to them than a sensationalist, outdated eleven year old article which has been used to dishonour the memory of a man who had died only hours before.

the thing is, many on this forum, dont see this a significant character flaw, and it besmirching Lomu and his legacy.

no one asserts overwhelming proof and knowledge, I dont think anyone is smearing anyone.

It is only people who come on here, and project their own worldview and concept of drugs and PEDs = bad, and this is indicting one individual. well guess what, it aint.

And if folks profess this worldview, yet maintain a wish for a solution, they cannot see in the mirror that they are indeed the problem, they cannot handle straighttalking and an honest appraisal of the playing field and culture.

it is a paradox that people maintaing PEDs are evil, that this forces doping under the rug, and there cannot be some amorphous solution, whatever a solution would entail. I could not define a solution, I have no idea what a solution would be. I do not even necessarily assume a need for a solution. For a solution to be needed, would require a problem to be defined and to exist. Folks are too quick to bury doping under a 1 tonne rug.

I don't disagree with any of that. That's not what I am discussing though. Lomu's condition was known for years and could have been discussed at any time. To suddenly bring it up a few hours after he has died is not about wanting to discuss the issues. You'll notice that Dear Wiggo has made no effort since to discuss the subject he chose to raise beyond a couple of abusive posts aimed at ***edited by mods***

 

[blackcat]

p'raps Dear Wiggo, without wishing to put words in his mouth, is merely in the push-back phase. He has had enough, and is sick and tired of the doping rug-swept-under'y, or however he baptised the phrase, coulda been swept-under-rug'gery or under-rug-swept, or swept-rug-under'y

 

[The Hitch]

The idea that just because his family mightn't be reading the clinic, means the discussion should legitimately continue on innuendo grounds is preposterous. This should be a clear cut issue of perspective.

And yes, questioning the timing of this discussion is a perfectly fair question.

So its "your not allowed to talk about it because gooner says so" or are there some arguments you want to offer?

 

[Benotti69]

I would suggest that when an elite level athlete passes away at a young age that those who know they would be offended avoid the clinic.

Lomu's legacy is intact, unlike Simpson's, Coppi's or Pantani's.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Dear Wiggo has made no effort since to discuss the subject he chose to raise beyond a couple of abusive posts aimed at ***edited by mods***

Your skin must be incredibly thin and sensitive if you found my posts abusive.

What a sheltered life you must lead.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

It's an unnecessary distraction to blame Lomu's medical condition on doping.

I showed that there were warnings to the NZers in 1995 to be careful with creatine, that one of the players at the time had the exact same disease allegedly due to creatine that Lomu contracted some years later.

I am sorry you can't put 2+2 together.

If you don't like doping talk, might I suggest other areas of this forum?

Strange that you never brought it up before. Lomu's condition has been public knowledge since 1996. Why didn't you raise this issue before?

What are you on about? Try to stick to the topic yeah? You've been a member long enough to know the rules.

I haven't broken any rules. Why don't you just answer my perfectly valid question?

Your question is asking my motivation for posting.

This is not the "psychology 101" forum where we get into existentialism.

This is the doping forum, where we discuss doping, its effects and its news, enablers, dopers and events surrounding those things.

"Why didn't you..." is not the beginning of a question pertinent to any topic in The Clinic. We are not discussing posters.

I am sorry this is not painfully obvious to you, because Blind Freddy called and wondered wtf is up.

 

[TailWindHome]

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/neil-francis-on-jonah-lomu-a-life-lost-needlessly-34222682.html

You may be interested in this.

Any article citing the number of google hits to support a theory is in murky waters, further muddied by the old "I'm only asking questions" routine.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/neil-francis-on-jonah-lomu-a-life-lost-needlessly-34222682.html

You may be interested in this.

Any article citing the number of google hits to support a theory is in murky waters, further muddied by the old "I'm only asking questions" routine.

Neil Francis is a former Ireland international, not your average fan with a typewriter posing as a journalist.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/neil-francis-on-jonah-lomu-a-life-lost-needlessly-34222682.html

You may be interested in this.

Any article citing the number of google hits to support a theory is in murky waters, further muddied by the old "I'm only asking questions" routine.

Neil Francis is a former Ireland international, not your average fan with a typewriter posing as a journalist.

Is it a coincidence that two players from the same team, Jonah Lomu and Joely Vidiri, both should acquire Nephrotic Syndrome and even if they had or had not taken Creatine can we link Creatine and Nephrotic Syndrome?

Lomu's condition has been known about for some time, I wonder why Neil Francis didn't bring it up before?

Strange that you never brought it up before. Lomu's condition has been public knowledge since 1996. Why didn't you raise this issue before?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I realise correlation is not causation, but I wondered about the timeline and ...

Jonah Lomu died of cardiac arrest
"The final mechanism was something caused the heart to go into cardiac arrest, most probably a cardiac or pulmonary event," he said.
...
The former All Black winger had been battling a rare kidney disorder known as nephrotic syndrome for many years. It began to make itself apparent even when he was making global headlines steamrolling England into submission at the 1995 Rugby World Cup and afterwards.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11547393&ref=NZH_FBpage

And this is from 2004 -- notice the similarities?

Warning on Super 12's booster


The world's top sports anti-doping agency is warning athletes against a performance-enhancing supplement which has been popular among New Zealand rugby players.

The World Anti-Doping Agency is giving the warning because of potential health risks, in particular to the kidneys and liver.

Joeli Vidiri is among Super 12 players who took creatine. In 2001, he was diagnosed as having nephrotic syndrome, a condition which has led to his kidneys failing. He receives dialysis three times a week.

Vidiri began taking creatine, which he told the Weekend Herald was provided by the Blues, in 1997.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/phil-taylor/news/article.cfm?a_id=125&objectid=3580095

Good post, Dear Wiggo.

 

[buckle]

I've changed my mind. It was right to speculate about the death. The Neil Francis piece opens up questions not only about drug taking but the cynicism of commercialised sports. Excellent work.

 

[beatthatrat]

Neil Francis is a clown unfortunately. It speaks to his character that he'd be first vulture on the scene after Lomu's death.
His piece seems targeted at mummy and daddy bringing the kids to rugby training. Creatine is a hugely common recovery product sold in massive tubs on every highstreet so his angle seems to be that it needs to be policed better. Which is fair enough.
Creatine is also totally legal as a supplement though so I don't understand why people feel it besmirches Lomu's reputation that he might've took it. I'd think that every high-level rugby player takes it or something similar to it. Like everything else it's not healthy to use it to excess. It's a bit mean-spirited to use a person's death to illustrate a point that everyone knows anyway.

 

[Nellyspania]

Re:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/neil-francis-on-jonah-lomu-a-life-lost-needlessly-34222682.html

You may be interested in this.

Any article citing the number of google hits to support a theory is in murky waters, further muddied by the old "I'm only asking questions" routine.

Indeed; google 'coffee cancer' and you get 106,000,000 hits yet most (including myself) continue to drink the stuff!

Junk journalism

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/neil-francis-on-jonah-lomu-a-life-lost-needlessly-34222682.html

You may be interested in this.

Any article citing the number of google hits to support a theory is in murky waters, further muddied by the old "I'm only asking questions" routine.

Neil Francis is a former Ireland international, not your average fan with a typewriter posing as a journalist.

Is it a coincidence that two players from the same team, Jonah Lomu and Joely Vidiri, both should acquire Nephrotic Syndrome and even if they had or had not taken Creatine can we link Creatine and Nephrotic Syndrome?

Lomu's condition has been known about for some time, I wonder why Neil Francis didn't bring it up before?

Strange that you never brought it up before. Lomu's condition has been public knowledge since 1996. Why didn't you raise this issue before?

Apparently Neil Francis has previously written about Lomu, Kidney problems, creatine and NZ rugby's active promotion of bulking up.