Dumoulin.

[Forever The Best]

Re: Re:

He's already far better than Froome in the TT and now pretty much as good at climbing. Plus he's mixing it up in one day races. He's the number one alien in the peloton these days.

That is still and will always be Froome until the day he's beamed back up to return to his home planet.

He gets overshadowed by Sky, but his transformation is probably the most eyebrow raising besides the Sky guys and Zakarin (but he already got busted before turning pro).

Agreed. Whole Sunweb took a big step last year and Dumoulin is getting yet another step this year. Ridiculous.

 

[saganftw]

i think we have to pause the evaluation of dumoulin untill after the third week,if he is as strong as now thats hella suspiscious after giro...if he fades like he is supposed to,thats gonna be at least somewhat realistic

he is still miles away from mr. "trying to win 4 GTs in a row" who i fully expect to be at his best in 3rd week

 

[DFA123]

Re:

There always have been top TT riders who dropped climbers over multiple stages (in other words due to being stronger, not just because they climbed better). This was as true in Coppi's day as it is now.

The amount of pure climbers winning a GT is much smaller than TT winners clinching a TdF.

And yeah, Anquetil won Mountain Stages, Merckx, Zoetemelk (primarily a TT rider) won climbing stages, Hinault, Fignon, Roche, Indurain, Ulrich, LA. Pure climbers generally got crushed.

Pure climbers didn't tend to get crushed in stages with 5000m of climbing, by guys who had never done anything on a mountain before they turned 25.

This is a phenomenon unique to the 2010s.

 

[Franklin]

The age thing is a quite different discussion than the TT thing. More importantly for this thread, Tom Dumoulin is just 27 and was 24 when he showed his first GT potential.

The progression of the career of TD is quite different from the Sky heroes.

And yeah, climbers like Beat Breu (arguably best climber 1982)most definitely got crushed in stages with more climbs, indeed the more mountains, the worse he did. Peter Winnen complained about it as well, said that strong riders as Fignon, Hinault and Lemond had the advantage if it truly got brutal, simply by being more resillient.

Again, history has shown that TdF winners tend to be among the best TT riders of their generation first, climbing was done on power (Fignon, Hinault, Lemond are nice examples of power climber with multiple mountain stage wins). Delgado and Pantani are outliers, not the norm.


@ Roundabout, I'm really sorry that the Vuelta 2015 did happen. It's truly mean of me coming up with verifiable facts

So yeah I fully understand that you are sniping without admitting that indeed the facts show that TD has some pedigree. I mean, why discuss honestly and admit that you are wrong when you can just evade?

 

[Blobs]

Re: Re:

There always have been top TT riders who dropped climbers over multiple stages (in other words due to being stronger, not just because they climbed better). This was as true in Coppi's day as it is now.

The amount of pure climbers winning a GT is much smaller than TT winners clinching a TdF.

And yeah, Anquetil won Mountain Stages, Merckx, Zoetemelk (primarily a TT rider) won climbing stages, Hinault, Fignon, Roche, Indurain, Ulrich, LA. Pure climbers generally got crushed.

Pure climbers didn't tend to get crushed in stages with 5000m of climbing, by guys who had never done anything on a mountain before they turned 25.

This is a phenomenon unique to the 2010s.

Simply not true. Indurain and Riis did this in the 90's. Ullrich too although he showed climbing promise earlier, but was still a big guy dropping the climbers. Lance Armstrong did exactly this 7 times.

I only started watching in the 90's but this was happening at least 20 years prior to the 2010's

 

[Cookster15]

Re:

Very similar to Froome in that he never seems to have a bad day. His bad day constitutes losing about 15-20 seconds.

Unbelievable how these big big power TT riders can drop minute climbers on the big mountain passes. The Giro also proving to be a great preparation for the tour, who would've known.

Tom Dumoulin is only 2Kg heavier than Chris Froome. Did you know this?

 

[Saint Unix]

Imagine in Dumoulin lost his inner fat. He could launch himself to the moon off a moderately steep incline.

 

[ppanther92]

Imagine what Dumoulin would be capable of at Sky. A world class TTer with actual GT talent early on? He would be the best rider we have ever seen (or end up as another Löfkvist).

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Imagine this race with Kelderman working for Dumoulin and Matthews getting up the road every day. It might start to resemble a fair fight. But not quite

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

TT riders, or better, allround riders have always been stronger than pure climbers.

And in the TDF this is more obvious because of all the flat stages that sap the legs from the climbers.
Also I think Sky's train makes it really difficult for explosive climbers like Quintana and in the past Contador to do something. They rely on stop/start attack riding to make the difference. But a constant searing pace leaves them hopelessly outclassed by riders who are used to holding a steady tempo, like Dumoulin, Froome and Thomas for instance

 

[Blanco]

Re:

TT riders, or better, allround riders have always been stronger than pure climbers.

And in the TDF this is more obvious because of all the flat stages that sap the legs from the climbers.
Also I think Sky's train makes it really difficult for explosive climbers like Quintana and in the past Contador to do something. They rely on stop/start attack riding to make the difference. But a constant searing pace leaves them hopelessly outclassed by riders who are used to holding a steady tempo, like Dumoulin, Froome and Thomas for instance

Yeah, if you believe in fairy tales..

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

All tours contador won was no real team train. And a lot of stop start riding.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

lol, this guy is as ridiculous as Thomas. If he wasn't so tactically inept he'd have a palmares like Froome's by now.

More like, if he had the same type of team to back him, as Froome does. That includes doctors, of course. :lol:

 

[MikeS369]

Re:

Very similar to Froome in that he never seems to have a bad day. His bad day constitutes losing about 15-20 seconds.

Unbelievable how these big big power TT riders can drop minute climbers on the big mountain passes. The Giro also proving to be a great preparation for the tour, who would've known.

Reminds me of Indurain who we know was squeaky clean, right.

 

[MikeS369]

Re: Re:

Very similar to Froome in that he never seems to have a bad day. His bad day constitutes losing about 15-20 seconds.

Unbelievable how these big big power TT riders can drop minute climbers on the big mountain passes. The Giro also proving to be a great preparation for the tour, who would've known.

Tom Dumoulin is only 2Kg heavier than Chris Froome. Did you know this?

How much does froome weigh? Sky doesn't even know.

 

[MikeS369]

Re:

There always have been top TT riders who dropped climbers over multiple stages (in other words due to being stronger, not just because they climbed better). This was as true in Coppi's day as it is now.

The amount of pure climbers winning a GT is much smaller than TT winners clinching a TdF.

And yeah, Anquetil won Mountain Stages, Merckx, Zoetemelk (primarily a TT rider) won climbing stages, Hinault, Fignon, Roche, Indurain, Ulrich, LA. Pure climbers generally got crushed.

Quite the list of the who's who of doping.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

TT riders, or better, allround riders have always been stronger than pure climbers.

And in the TDF this is more obvious because of all the flat stages that sap the legs from the climbers.
Also I think Sky's train makes it really difficult for explosive climbers like Quintana and in the past Contador to do something. They rely on stop/start attack riding to make the difference. But a constant searing pace leaves them hopelessly outclassed by riders who are used to holding a steady tempo, like Dumoulin, Froome and Thomas for instance

Absolute partisan nonsense. Steady tempo or stop start - on the climbs it still all comes down to w/kg. And 70kg TT riders are now putting out significantly more w/kg than 57kg climbers. It seems pretty clear that the latest doping is primarily focused on weight loss, and heavier riders can now lose 3-4kg without sacrificing any power - something that the lighter riders can't hope to match.

Froome, Thomas and Dumoulin were so stop-start, they were almost doing track stands in the last few km, followed by sprints. And still continued to put time into most of the other GC riders.

 

[Forever The Best]

Re:

TT riders, or better, allround riders have always been stronger than pure climbers.

And in the TDF this is more obvious because of all the flat stages that sap the legs from the climbers.
Also I think Sky's train makes it really difficult for explosive climbers like Quintana and in the past Contador to do something. They rely on stop/start attack riding to make the difference. But a constant searing pace leaves them hopelessly outclassed by riders who are used to holding a steady tempo, like Dumoulin, Froome and Thomas for instance

A stage with 3 HC climbs shouldn't result in TT riders getting 1-2, no.

 

[samhocking]

Tour de France is not a race for climbers, it's a race for ~70kg endurance specialists. There's a reason 55-60kg riders don't ever win Tour de France today and that's because they are not physiologically suited to its endurance demands. A 4km Pursuit is about as pure an indicator for a humans actual endurance capacity as anything on the road. I can't think of any other discipline that translates more directly to what is happening physiologically at the pointy end of a climb in last 10 minutes anyway. What Sky do is nearly always burn out pure climbers at high threshold, then gain time in last 4km. The fastest riders at 4km at and above threshold and dealing with lactic are 4km pursuit specialists and TT riders, because that is their natural ability.

 

[Saint Unix]

Re:

Tour de France is not a race for climbers, it's a race for ~70kg endurance specialists. There's a reason 55-60kg riders don't ever win Tour de France today and that's because they are not physiologically suited to its endurance demands. A 4km Pursuit is about as pure an indicator for a humans actual endurance capacity as anything on the road. I can't think of any other discipline that translates more directly to what is happening physiologically at the pointy end of a climb in last 10 minutes anyway. What Sky do is nearly always burn out pure climbers at high threshold, then gain time in last 4km. The fastest riders at 4km at and above threshold and dealing with lactic are 4km pursuit specialists and TT riders, because that is their natural ability.

This is some grade A horsesh*t, but OK.

 

[samhocking]

FTP is FTP. Riders with best FTP are Pursuit riders and TT specialists, not climbers. Only if you think only Sky are doping does it not make sense. If you think everyone is doping or nobody is doping the numbers stack up, the riders that win Tour de France are endurance specialists, not climbers even in darkest doping days too. Last non-endurance specialist to win Tour was Pantani. Before him you have to go back to Lucien Van Impe and Luis Ocaña to find climbers winning Tour under 60kg and that's 50 years ago now.

 

[Saint Unix]

Nope. because I think 4km pursuit riders have no business being at the pointy end of a hard mountain stage after pure climbers have been riding at high threshold and shelling off every man and their dogs. Doping or no doping, it doesn't make sense.

The reason TdF winners are usually a combination of TTers and climbers is because they can make up more time on the flats/TTs than they lose on the climbs and the TdF is traditionally the flattest GT of the three. Pure climbers make up a large percentage of winners in the Giro and Vuelta because they're more mountain heavy and the tiny guys usually kick the asses of the heavier guys uphill, doping or no doping. Even ignoring the fact that Dumoulin, Thomas and Froome are all way better at climbing now than their early careers suggest they should be, the fact that they're there after guys like Bardet and Nibali have tried their damnedest to shell them off is suspicious as all hell.

 

[dacooley]

Damn, DFA, you appear to be so knowledgeable about cycling in a broad sense, but so poisonously biased when it comes to all-rounders and diesel-climbers like Dimoulin, Thomas or Froome. Arghhh...

 

[Franklin]

Re: Re:

A stage with 3 HC climbs shouldn't result in TT riders getting 1-2, no.

Greg Lemond looks at you and shrugs.

Seriously, what's this denial of an old truth by inventing a crazy myth that climbers dominated the TdF? It has always been the case that stronger TT riders did better in consecutive mountain stages, especially over several cols. This was the case pre-epo and even pre-old school blood charging.

There's a reason people like Bobbet, Coppi, Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault, Fignon and Lemond dominated both in the TT as in the mountains. They were more resilient.

TT riders, or better, allround riders have always been stronger than pure climbers.

Yeah, if you believe in fairy tales..

It's there in the palmares of the TdF. Why deny reality?

The reason TdF winners are usually a combination of TTers and climbers is because they can make up more time on the flats/TTs than they lose on the climbs and the TdF is traditionally the flattest GT of the three.

Hinault won most time in the mountains (for example 1981 and 1982). Simply because he never cracked.

1984: Fignon won literally every stage that mattered., be it TT or mountainstage. Indeed he made a mockery of everyone by absolutely the most insane power climbing (later duplicated by Riis with veins full of epo).

Same with Greg 1986. Most time gained in mountains. In 1989 besides on Fignon (who gained on him in the mountains, but lost in the two TT's) he gained time on everyone in the mountains (won two mountain stages!).



Do not create a new myth by saying the TTers used to limit time losses... they flat out dominated the TdF mountain stages in the past. If anything, Epo seems to have changed this a bit.

Pure climbers make up a large percentage of winners in the Giro and Vuelta because they're more mountain heavy and the tiny guys usually kick the asses of the heavier guys uphill, doping or no doping.

1. Giro? Sorry. no. The multiple Giro winners all dominated the TT's,
2. Vuelta? More so, but generally the competition used to be a lot less fierce. Merckx and Hinault seldom rode the Vuelta (and if they did they crushed the competition). People like Freddy Maertens and Sean Kelly also won the Vuelta.

Now if we look at TD (this thread) and the Sky boys (other threads), it's clear they are doping. But that these are basically TT guys climbing with the best is simply nothing new at all. It's actually how it used to be, with a bit less "gifts" nowadays. => 1984 1986 are years where the TT guys also didn't gift stages to climbers. Lemond and Fignon won most climbing stages those years, blowing away the Postobon guys, Delgado, the Dutch climbers. In 1985 Herrera had a good year, but he was also quite in the pocket of Hinault (who also had that terrible crash halfway).

And lastly, TD is a doper, but his progression is very different from the Sky boys. It's also quite something to claim TD never showed any promise as a climber as a young guy (especially since he's still young!).

 

[Saint Unix]

Re: Re:

Pure climbers make up a large percentage of winners in the Giro and Vuelta because they're more mountain heavy and the tiny guys usually kick the asses of the heavier guys uphill, doping or no doping.

1. Giro? Sorry. no. The multiple Giro winners all dominated the TT's,
2. Vuelta? More so, but generally the competition used to be a lot less fierce. Merckx and Hinault seldom rode the Vuelta (and if they did they crushed the competition). People like Freddy Maertens and Sean Kelly also won the Vuelta.


And lastly, TD is a doper, but his progression is very different from the Sky boys. It's also quite something to claim TD never showed any promise as a climber as a young guy (especially since he's still young!).

Di Luca, Garzelli, Scarponi, Simoni, Quintana, Pantani and Cunego, and that's just the last 20 years. Compare that to the Tour and it's night and day. Giro? Sorry, yes.

Also, stop putting words in my mouth. There is a massive difference between saying Tom Dumoulin didn't show enough climbing talent in his youth to realistically expect him to ride away from the Quintanas, Landas and Nibalis of this world now and saying he never showed any promise at all.