Eki frustrated by AC's comments

[mr. tibbs]

I'll try to help you TR. The Basques were a seperate people unto themsleves before they were semi-conquered by the Spanish. They have never accepted being part of Spain and have been fighting an ongoing seperatist war for many years. The Basque hate to be referred to as Spanish and speak a dialect that is difficult to understand by other Spanish speaking people. There is a large Basque community in U.S. in Idaho, I think.

Correct! they're primarily shepherds. There are also some scattered throughout Wyoming, Utah, and that region in general. They serve AMAZING meat, but all of their vegetables (even lettuce, it seems) come from cans.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

An interesting video from AC - no he doesn't 'thank' his team but I think it is clear to see what he does think.

http://www.steephill.tv/players/youtube/?title=tdf-09-st18-contador-interview&id=2X-h3x8wqSE&w=560

 

[Anonymous]

Don't you get that LA sees himself as the ultimate teacher for AC or any of the relatively young riders in the peloton? Whether that's true or not is beside the point. Surely you see how that perception, and AC's apparent reluctance to accept LA in that manner, is central to their relationship, or, rather, the lack thereof?

Wow, you really need to read that statement again and digest the psychological ramifications of it because I think even you can discern the problem with it. How Lance "sees" himself and the requirements he then places upon others and how they relate to him is PRECISELY the problem with Mr Armstrong in this situation. In ANY relationship, you don't get to determine what another thinks of you. They are people, and have the right to do so themselves based on the fact that they actually live their lives. The "I am the center of the universe" mode of thinking is the kind that makes true partnership with anyone impossible, because you require specific behavior for your own selfish needs, not because it benefits the other person. If you offer help, and it isn't taken or desired, and you then berate the person for not accepting, you didn't offer because you really wanted to help.

Also, just because you see yourself as a "teacher" doesn't mean anyone wants to learn what you have to teach.

This isn't just a destructive facet of Mr Armstrong's relationship with people, it is something that we all need to think about. I am only responsible for what I think of you, not what you think of me. If I am GENUINELY concerned with you, whether or not you take any advice or help has nothing to do with my concern. If my help is offered so that you will appreciate me for helping you, then the focus isn't on you or your needs, it is on whether or not I receive adulation for doing so. That my friend is your hero in a nut shell.

 

[dgodave]

I'm truly amazed at the amount of energy expended on this topic.
.
Is anybody here a professional Lance defamer or promoter? Is there any money in this?
.

 

[Carboncrank]

I actually didn't. I've just taken Armstrong's position about Contador, and reversed it and applied it to him. The team demonstrably worked harder on Lance's behalf, but I've seen no public acknowledgment of that work during the final interviews or on his twitter account. According to Armstrong's approach, then he TOO needs to learn that there is no "I" in team. That instead of twittering bs to Contador, he should be thanking his team. He hasn't. In short, I'm demonstrating Armstrong's HYPOCRISY.

We have enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that Lance is full of crap about whether Contador thanked his team mates. We also have plenty of circumstantial evidence that Lance has been less than a team mate to Contador, and taken active steps to minimize him and his success within the team. The fact that you are unwilling to even ACKNOWLEDGE these FACTS, demonstrates that you've let your admiration of Lance color your objectivity.

Let's see, Lance didn't thank his teammates therefor if he'd won the race he wouldn't have. or... that his reaction to being 3rd is held against him because if it was his reaction if he won it would be wrong...or...His not thanking the team publicly after finishing third means it's ok that Alberto didn't thank them after winning? or... it is the same thing as not thanking them after winning?.... or... man.. I don't see how you get on the right side of this.

you create a parallel universe in which he wins the race, but reacts as though he finished 3rd.

That's about as convoluted as I've ever seen a lance hater go.

Or I'm missing something.

Alberto did not do it publicly that anyone can point to.

uncorroborated hearsay is what anti-Lance nutjobs thrive on.

It's really fun watching Lance make you squirm.

 

[Carboncrank]

Wow, you really need to read that statement again and digest the psychological ramifications of it because I think even you can discern the problem with it. How Lance "sees" himself and the requirements he then places upon others and how they relate to him is PRECISELY the problem with Mr Armstrong in this situation. In ANY relationship, you don't get to determine what another thinks of you. They are people, and have the right to do so themselves based on the fact that they actually live their lives. The "I am the center of the universe" mode of thinking is the kind that makes true partnership with anyone impossible, because you require specific behavior for your own selfish needs, not because it benefits the other person. If you offer help, and it isn't taken or desired, and you then berate the person for not accepting, you didn't offer because you really wanted 95to help.

Also, just because you see yourself as a "teacher" doesn't mean anyone wants to learn what you have to teach.

This isn't just a destructive facet of Mr Armstrong's relationship with people, it is something that we all need to think about. I am only responsible for what I think of you, not what you think of me. If I am GENUINELY concerned with you, whether or not you take any advice or help has nothing to do with my concern. If my help is offered so that you will appreciate me for helping you, then the focus isn't on you or your needs, it is on whether or not I receive adulation for doing so. That my friend is your hero in a nut shell.

I don't agree with 95 at all but your Dr Phil psychobabble is genuinely amusing.

 

[lanceismyhero]

Contador proved that cyling is not a team sport. Not only did contador win without a team , he won with a team that was doing everything they could to sabotage him. Contador is a genuine talent who does not need to rely on a team or so-called tactics or peloton politics. Armstrong only won in the past because of his bullying politics and weasal tactics. I would love to see armstrong retroactively lose his 7 tour wins because of the slimey way he won.

 

[lanceismyhero]

I don't agree with 95 at all but your Dr Phil psychobabble is genuinely amusing.

You need to stop posting. Your IQ is extremely low and you are making a fool of yourself.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't agree with 95 at all but your Dr Phil psychobabble is genuinely amusing.

Just learning English huh? Keep trying, you'll get the hang of it in a few years!

 

[Anonymous]

I don't agree with 95 at all but your Dr Phil psychobabble is genuinely amusing.

Tell you what, come of out of the cheap seats and show me where I am wrong.

 

[Anonymous]

Contador proved that cyling is not a team sport. Not only did contador win without a team , he won with a team that was doing everything they could to sabotage him. Contador is a genuine talent who does not need to rely on a team or so-called tactics or peloton politics. Armstrong only won in the past because of his bullying politics and weasal tactics. I would love to see armstrong retroactively lose his 7 tour wins because of the slimey way he won.

You mean like crushing everbody in the final TT and uphill fininshes like Verbier? You mean those kinds of weasal tactics? Love Armstrong or hate him, at least we are all engaged in a somewhat interesting/entertaining dialogue. Except for the above which is the dumbest thing I've read in the last couple of days.

 

[Carboncrank]

You need to stop posting. Your IQ is extremely low and you are making a fool of yourself.

come back and see us after you've seen your second race.

 

[Anonymous]

Originally Posted by Señor_Contador
Before Ekimov and his possie start talking the man down they should worry about picking their riders up at the top of the mountain stages and driving them to the hotel.

What we know to be a fact is that after the Mont Ventoux stage Alberto was purposely left behind by the team and was driven to the hotel by his own brother.

I tell you, that would've never happen to me twice (like it did to Alberto) because, after the first time, I'd make sure Johan, Ekimov and the rest of the LA *****es would get their teeth realigned.

You sure you want to take on Nails?

This is probably the most amusing thing about those arguing for AC. The fact is none of us know what went on and what is continuing to go on. Just what we read in the press and we all know how accurate the press are nowadays. But to think you know something based on a bias then just blow out LA (ok, easy target), JB and now Slava just cracks me up. Some of the most accomplished people in the cycling world just pushed to the side as they don't fit the argument.

Enough to put a smile on your face.

 

[Aguirre]

Could you please explain the Basque/Spanish situation for me?

I posted the Zubeldia link. I'm basque as he is, he lives in Zarauz 20 km from where I do, San Sebastian, and I ocassionally rode with him on the coast.
He is a guy who after being 5 in 2003 and another year I cant racall in TDF now work as a teammate. He is shy and obedient. A really good person.

This is not the place to discuss basque/spanish issues. But, the funny thing is that if someone states whatever in Twitter then this becomes the proof of something said publicly, hence TRUE (its what I get from you). That is a silly argument. The history is full of people who used the media as a political tool for their own benefits. At the contrary is someone, Zubeldia gives an interview to a newspaper, then we doubt...

Contador, Zubeldia and all us we have freedom to use Twitter or not, to have it or not. That doesnt add any extra credit to an argument.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If twitter is the new source of information to be relied on then this will probably close a few threads.

http://twitter.com/cyclingweekly/status/2887293846

 

[Publicus]

Let's see, Lance didn't thank his teammates therefor if he'd won the race he wouldn't have. or... that his reaction to being 3rd is held against him because if it was his reaction if he won it would be wrong...or...His not thanking the team publicly after finishing third means it's ok that Alberto didn't thank them after winning? or... it is the same thing as not thanking them after winning?.... or... man.. I don't see how you get on the right side of this.

you create a parallel universe in which he wins the race, but reacts as though he finished 3rd.

That's about as convoluted as I've ever seen a lance hater go.

Or I'm missing something.

Alberto did not do it publicly that anyone can point to.

uncorroborated hearsay is what anti-Lance nutjobs thrive on.

It's really fun watching Lance make you squirm.

This whole debating thing is new to you, huh? Let me explain it to you like you are a 4th grader:

(1) This is really simple. Rider (B) says that Rider (A) should stop talking and thank his team mates, and implies that Rider (A) suggests that he won because of his own efforts because he hasn't publicly thanked the team. Now Rider (B) has finished, let's say 3rd, after a tremendous amount of work on the part of the team (specifically Rider (K) who sacrificed his podium aspirations for Rider (B)). Rider (B) has not publicly thanked the team in any of his statements or his twitter account, which according to the standard HE IS ADVOCATING SHOULD BE APPLIED TO RIDER (A) means that he hasn't thanked his team mates for their effort. As such, Rider (B) is a hypocrite for advocating a standard that he hasn't lived up to. Or in more cliche terms, he is not practicising what he preaches.

(2) We now have sufficient circumstantial evidence to suggest that Rider (B) is either (I) not telling the truth or (II) is demonstrating that his absence from the team dinner on Saturday and general lack of a relationship with Rider (A) means that he has an insufficient basis to draw conclusions about what actions Rider (A) may or may not have taken.

That's as far as I've gone. Not hating on Lance. Not loving on Alberto. Just pointing out the inconsistency between what Lance is advocating and what Lance is actually doing. Both achieved success with the assistance of the team, with one receiving more than the other. Isn't it odd to argue that only one of them owes their team mates a public thank you? And yet, here you are doing precisely that.

And I just wrote all of that without actually shifting in my chair once.

 

[Anonymous]

Unrelated to their relationship? It's key to their relationship!

Their relationship is clearly affected by the fact that LA believes AC has a lot to learn (like publicly thanking your team) and refuses to acknowledge that, much less learn it.

Don't you get that LA sees himself as the ultimate teacher for AC or any of the relatively young riders in the peloton? Whether that's true or not is beside the point. Surely you see how that perception, and AC's apparent reluctance to accept LA in that manner, is central to their relationship, or, rather, the lack thereof?

Interesting. Remember Kevin Livingston? Went to work for Ullrich & LA was none too happy, I think at least in part if not in total, for the the reason you state above. Hamilton, Landis, Boonen and Levi Leipheimer are a few others that come to mind.

 

[lanceismyhero]

You mean like crushing everbody in the final TT and uphill fininshes like Verbier? You mean those kinds of weasal tactics? Love Armstrong or hate him, at least we are all engaged in a somewhat interesting/entertaining dialogue. Except for the above which is the dumbest thing I've read in the last couple of days.

anybody can do well in a tt if they have lots of reserves from letting everyone else do their work. Armstrong is a show boater and feat accomplisher. he lets everyone do all his work and then puts all his energy in when everyone is looking. This is best illustrated by the fact that armstrong only did well on the tour de france by taking it easy in the other races during the season.

 

[Carboncrank]

This whole debating thing is new to you, huh? Let me explain it to you like you are a 4th grader:

(1) This is really simple. Rider (B) says that Rider (A) should stop talking and thank his team mates, and implies that Rider (A) suggests that he won because of his own efforts because he hasn't publicly thanked the team. Now Rider (B) has finished, let's say 3rd, after a tremendous amount of work on the part of the team (specifically Rider (K) who sacrificed his podium aspirations for Rider (B)). Rider (B) has not publicly thanked the team in any of his statements or his twitter account, which according to the standard HE IS ADVOCATING SHOULD BE APPLIED TO RIDER (A) means that he hasn't thanked his team mates for their effort. As such, Rider (B) is a hypocrite for advocating a standard that he hasn't lived up to. Or in more cliche terms, he is not practicising what he preaches.

(2) We now have sufficient circumstantial evidence to suggest that Rider (B) is either (I) not telling the truth or (II) is demonstrating that his absence from the team dinner on Saturday and general lack of a relationship with Rider (A) means that he has an insufficient basis to draw conclusions about what actions Rider (A) may or may not have taken.

That's as far as I've gone. Not hating on Lance. Not loving on Alberto. Just pointing out the inconsistency between what Lance is advocating and what Lance is actually doing. Both achieved success with the assistance of the team, with one receiving more than the other. Isn't it odd to argue that only one of them owes their team mates a public thank you? And yet, here you are doing precisely that.

And I just wrote all of that without actually shifting in my chair once.

rider A and rider B are not equal in this situation and its incorrect to hold them to the same standard.

Rider B just won the Tour de France. The greatest achievement in his profession.

Rider A did not.

 

[Aguirre]

I'm sure Wiki would be more complete than myself but basically, it is the same as many regions in Europe.

Basque is a specific and separate language. As such the region (which is around the Pyrénées ) and the population have a real, specific identity. Basque language is generally considered as not part of the indo-european languages (unlike French and Spanish)

The very mountainous landscape probably means that they lived fairly quiet for a long part of history. But they are split up by administrative regions: most of the Basque country is part of Spain, yet a smaller area is France.

During the XXth century, Basque nationalism made a return at the time of the Civil War. Franco and the fascists won that one, and the strong central power was not too kind with any form of dissent, esp. regionalism. You even have examples in sport: The Real Madrid Football Club was "Franco's club" (and not just because it was in the capital of Spain), as such the rivalry with Barcelona (Catalunya greatest city) was very much political. The President of FCB was murdered during the civil war by Franco's troops, the club had to go through several problem because of its "Catalanism", had to remove the Catalan flag from its logo, etc...

Nationalism movement in Basque country (and Catalunya) became de facto a resistance movement to Franco regime. Like in Northern Ireland, a clandestine armed movement (ETA) developed in Basque country. They took violent actions against the regime and killed the possible successor of Franco, for instance.

But when Spain turned into a democracy, the revendications didn't die down, even though Spain adopted a fairly decent decentralised system to allow regions to be partly autonomous: ETA continued to take violent action in their revendication for an independant Basque country. Car bombs, political assassinations... The ETA organisation has a political branch (like IRA/Sinn Fein) and has remained active until today.

While France also controls part of the Pays Basque, there was much less trouble, for several reasons. One being that the French Basque country has been considered a "sanctuary/haven" for ETA (no terror attacks -> much less pressure from police).

I suppose the situation is not too different than Bretagne or Corse: majority of the population does not want to break away from France/Spain and does not condone violence. Yet they also have a very strong cultural identity that a self respecting democracy must try to allow and incorpore in the institutions.

Sport is still a vector of the identity. Some Catalan athlets considered at one point asking the IOC to perform under Catalunya's colors.
The Athletic Bilbao football club only hires Basque players (from Spain or France) or formed in Basque clubs.
Euskaltel Euskadi is sponsored by the Basque region (Euskadi) and while there was exceptions to the rule, the vast majority of their riders are Basque or underwent formation in Basque clubs. They had a Venezuelian rider for long, and a French guy (but born in Bayonne, the major Basque city in France).

So, that's why some Spanish may not consider Basque as part of the country anymore (or Basque may not consider Spanish).

I am no specialist, so will be happy to be corrected by one if needed.

Hope that helps.

politics for beginners, but not bad... Zubeldia will say he is basque, no spanish, and even if he goes to radio shack he is suspected not to like Contador. Zubeldia as a real basque character, praises both LA and AC in his interview. And it seems he followed the DS all the time. We saw on their road to PAris Zubeldia and AC (the basque and the spanish) speaking as friends. It shows Zubeldia as being the PERFECT teammate, being caught among the two, and being nice.
BTW, knowing the humild roots of AC, coming from a working class background with a brother with dawn, his own past with "cavercome" (remember, he almost died, two weeks of coma, etc) is unbeliable that he didnt thank the team. He did, of course, all of them except LA, so once again he is so selfish that thinks there is and I in WE.

 

[Carboncrank]

anybody can do well in a tt if they have lots of reserves from letting everyone else do their work. Armstrong is a show boater and feat accomplisher. he lets everyone do all his work and then puts all his energy in when everyone is looking. This is best illustrated by the fact that armstrong only did well on the tour de france by taking it easy in the other races during the season.

ROTFL!!!~

I think someone lied about there age when they registered.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Interesting. Remember Kevin Livingston? Went to work for Ullrich & LA was none too happy, I think at least in part if not in total, for the the reason you state above. Hamilton, Landis, Boonen and Levi Leipheimer are a few others that come to mind.

....Roberto who?

 

[Publicus]

Interesting. Remember Kevin Livingston? Went to work for Ullrich & LA was none too happy, I think at least in part if not in total, for the the reason you state above. Hamilton, Landis, Boonen and Levi Leipheimer are a few others that come to mind.

I don't understand what this is supposed to demonstrate regarding the issue at hand (why Lance's response about team mates was appropriate when AC was answering a question about AC and Lance's relationship). It doesn't justify Lance's over the top response, or suggest that the fault is with AC for not capitulating to Lance's clear psychological disorder.

In fact, it demonstrates that Lance needs counseling. There is nothing healthy about what 95rpm is imputing to Lance. And yet he apparently sees nothing wrong with this situation except that AC didn't capitulate to Lance's narcosis. Amazing...

 

[Publicus]

rider A and rider B are not equal in this situation and its incorrect to hold them to the same standard.

Rider B just won the Tour de France. The greatest achievement in his profession.

Rider A did not.

So we agree: You and Lance are hypocrites. So how easy that was?

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Don't you get that LA sees himself as the ultimate teacher for AC or any of the relatively young riders in the peloton? Whether that's true or not is beside the point. Surely you see how that perception, and AC's apparent reluctance to accept LA in that manner, is central to their relationship, or, rather, the lack thereof?

Wow, you really need to read that statement again and digest the psychological ramifications of it because I think even you can discern the problem with it. How Lance "sees" himself and the requirements he then places upon others and how they relate to him is PRECISELY the problem with Mr Armstrong in this situation.

Oh, please. I'm not about to defend LA's psychological makeup in general, but in this case it's pretty normal, in any profession, for the older more experienced guy to expect some respect and desire to learn from the older in the younger. But the problems in their relationship are much deeper than that, and I know of no reason to believe that because AC didn't see LA as a mentor is why they didn't get along.

In ANY relationship, you don't get to determine what another thinks of you.

Duh. But you can be frustrated by what others think of you, especially when what they're thinking appears to you to be against their best interests.

They are people, and have the right to do so themselves based on the fact that they actually live their lives. The "I am the center of the universe" mode of thinking is the kind that makes true partnership with anyone impossible, because you require specific behavior for your own selfish needs, not because it benefits the other person. If you offer help, and it isn't taken or desired, and you then berate the person for not accepting, you didn't offer because you really wanted to help.

Oh, so now a couple of tweets rises to the level of "berating"?
Lance was frustrated by AC's obstinacy, sure, enough to comment about it. but there is no evidence that those tweets or anything else Lance said or did is why they didn't get along.

Also, just because you see yourself as a "teacher" doesn't mean anyone wants to learn what you have to teach.

Duh. Do you think LA has said or done anything that indicates he doesn't understand this? If so, what. If not, why bring this up?

This isn't just a destructive facet of Mr Armstrong's relationship with people, it is something that we all need to think about. I am only responsible for what I think of you, not what you think of me. If I am GENUINELY concerned with you, whether or not you take any advice or help has nothing to do with my concern. If my help is offered so that you will appreciate me for helping you, then the focus isn't on you or your needs, it is on whether or not I receive adulation for doing so. That my friend is your hero in a nut shell.

I agree with what you say in general.
I disagree with your contention that this general point applies here.

To be clear, I agree that AC has no obligation to see LA as a mentor. But "never admired him" is going way beyond that. I don't know about you, but I would have a difficult time having a productive/positive relationship with someone who has very little respect for me, which we know is the case with someone who is willing to openly say he doesn't, and never had, admiration for the other.