Enough Armchair Lance Bashing!

[Deagol]

I agree with the original poster. That's enough armchair bashing. We should grab our pitchforks and go out on the streets bashing Armstrong.

Looks like everyone should have been in Dublin, then ..
http://www.velonews.com/article/97144/armstrong-s-tweet-turns-out-more-than-1000-riders-for-a

 

[pmcg76]

Looks like everyone should have been in Dublin, then ..
http://www.velonews.com/article/97144/armstrong-s-tweet-turns-out-more-than-1000-riders-for-a

I mentioned this elsewhere, this was just 2 days after dropping out of the Tour of Ireland. The man who conquered cancer and the Tour couldnt be bothered to cycle up a measly little hill in Cork despite the fact there were thousands of people who had stood in the ****ing rain, many just to see him race. Lance is all about the PR and thats what the gig in Dublin was.

I had another one of those great discussions with a non-cycling friend last weekend at the Tour of Ireland. As somebody else pointed out, all they know about cycling is that Lance is a legend coming back from cancer but the sport itself is dirty as hell with drugs, they fail to see the hypocrisy which is what really irritates many of us. When I pointed out that all Lances competitors had been busted for drugs, I asked if it was therefore logical that Lance was clean. The response was 'I guess not'.

I feel bad sometimes for people like Deagol or ScottSoCal who were previously Lance fans but we have opened their eyes, its like taking away thier innocence but really I cannot stand the hypocrisy of Lance as a clean superhero in a very dirty sport. I dont have heroes in this sport.

 

[Anonymous]

I, for one, was in favor of Lance’s comeback initially. However, what I have learned since even the Giro has pretty much changed my mind. There was a lot of informative stuff here on the forum, particularly the Asheden interview, but Lance himself- by his own actions- has changed my mind about that. I’m actually still sort of glad he came back, but for a completely different reason. If he had not come back, I probably would not have been exposed to those things that I have learned, and would therefore have a mistaken impression of him and still believe in the myth. So, for that reason, I am glad he came back. I don’t hate him, and I would object for being labeled a “hater” by anyone. I feel that when I was younger, it was easy to jump on the pro-LA bandwagon, but now I view things with more skepticism. I don’t know who to root for anymore, but it won’t be LA. I hope the “comeback” just fizzles out and maybe he does decide to put his full energies into the cancer foundation and leave the racing alone. I think that would be the best way for him to clean his image up, forget the ego trip and use his enormous resources to help people in need. Who knows, if he does do that, maybe I might call myself a fan once again.

Many of us had the same transformation. Thoughtful post.

 

[Dude17]

I mentioned this elsewhere, this was just 2 days after dropping out of the Tour of Ireland. The man who conquered cancer and the Tour couldnt be bothered to cycle up a measly little hill in Cork despite the fact there were thousands of people who had stood in the ****ing rain, many just to see him race.

And those other 56 who abandoned that day really suck as well. How dare they?

Want to bash Lance? Shrug, don't really care. But at least be even handed about the bashing. There's enough to bash without distorting what happened.

 

[Digger]

And those other 56 who abandoned that day really suck as well. How dare they?

Want to bash Lance? Shrug, don't really care. But at least be even handed about the bashing. There's enough to bash without distorting what happened.

On the contrary, your posts show you care alot.

And yes, if I were the organisers, I'd be pi**ed with him too.

"Money for nothin and chicks for free"

 

[Dude17]

On the contrary, your posts show you care alot.

And yes, if I were the organisers, I'd be pi**ed with him too.

"Money for nothin and chicks for free"

I care about a lot of things, whether or not someone wants to bash Lance isn't high on the list.

I'd want my MTV, but they stopped showing actual videos long, long ago.

 

[bianchigirl]

But the point is a significant proportion of the crowd weren't there to see the race or to see Johnny Numbnuts, they were there to see St Lance - in exactly the same way that the vast majority of the prologue crowd in London were there for the event not the sport itself - and for him to climb off before the majority of spectators saw him was not respectful. So I repeat the question - does the fact that Armstrong climbing off merits greater press coverage than the race and its eventual winner raise the profile of cycling or of Lance Armstrong?

 

[Dude17]

So I repeat the question - does the fact that Armstrong climbing off merits greater press coverage than the race and its eventual winner raise the profile of cycling or of Lance Armstrong?

Of course the answer is LA for the most part and a little bit for cycling. How many people before LA even saw a bike race? Okay, how many stuck around after his first retirement? Probably not many, but there are probably a few.

So, yep it is all about LA increasing his visibility. I think like a lot of athletes who are used to the limelight, once they are away from the public's attention they feel kind of "hey, wait a minute, why isn't anyone paying attention to me?"

I'll bring up Michael Jordan, for an example from another sport. Out of the game, then back, then out, then back. In ten years, kids who are not basketball fans would not know MJ if he introduced himself. Lance doesn't want that fate for himself, so he's trying to "get the band back together," but in the end, he'll fade just like everyone else. How many non-cycling fans in the US know who Eddy Merckx is?

 

[Digger]

I mentioned this elsewhere, this was just 2 days after dropping out of the Tour of Ireland. The man who conquered cancer and the Tour couldnt be bothered to cycle up a measly little hill in Cork despite the fact there were thousands of people who had stood in the ****ing rain, many just to see him race. Lance is all about the PR and thats what the gig in Dublin was.

I had another one of those great discussions with a non-cycling friend last weekend at the Tour of Ireland. As somebody else pointed out, all they know about cycling is that Lance is a legend coming back from cancer but the sport itself is dirty as hell with drugs, they fail to see the hypocrisy which is what really irritates many of us. When I pointed out that all Lances competitors had been busted for drugs, I asked if it was therefore logical that Lance was clean. The response was 'I guess not'.

I feel bad sometimes for people like Deagol or ScottSoCal who were previously Lance fans but we have opened their eyes, its like taking away thier innocence but really I cannot stand the hypocrisy of Lance as a clean superhero in a very dirty sport. I dont have heroes in this sport.

I admire ScottSoCal, as it's one definition of intelligence - the ability to be open to changing your opinion, in the face of evidence to the contrary. I woudn't have the same inside sources as some people here, whose opinions I greatly respect, but I had doubts about Lance from the start. There were reports coming from France about EPO even in 1999, but people said it was cancer related. In 2000, I read 'It's not about the bike', and that merely confirmed the doubts. It was tripe. So Lance was never a big disappointment to me. How could it be in light of Festina?

HOWEVER, what was a big disappointment was David Walsh's story on Roche being administered EPO by Conconi. (So to people who think he only went after Lance, this is rubbish). Logically I knew he probably did dope, but when you admire someone, you hope against hope. And Kimmage's book, whilst never saying that Kelly or Roche doped, it didn't take much to put two and two together, especially considering he made a point of saying who was clean. For me living in Ireland, you think our sportsmen were too honest and innocent for that. But obviously they weren't. Again shown by Michelle Smith. So I genuinely don't trust many of the top guys - they might be clean, but i don't trust. I believed in Garmin last year, but this year, I have my doubts unfortunately.
My beef with Lance? The hypocrisy, the lies, half truths, using the media, bullying, court cases, clearly not wanting a clean sport, and hiding behind the cancer issue. Let's cut the bs, Kimmage was right, Lance doesn't have a patent on cancer. I don't like bringing up the cancer thing as so many people are affected by it and it is such a sensitive issue. I don't want to upset these people. It's an awful disease. But I find his behaviour around cancer to be disgusting. His ad over the summer, in conjunction with Nike, was simply awful. Every time he gets himself into a tricky situation with the media, the cancer card is played. Greg asked him a tough question in Las vegas, and then bang, Lance comes out with a line which had nothing to do with the question, 'I'm coming back for a noble cause'. I'd like to know how many people know that the money from the TDU didn't make it to this noble cause, but to his back pocket. All 2million Dollars of it. Another one of his defences against doping was that he'd never put drugs in his body after what he'd gone through with cancer. But even most of his most vociferous defenders accept that he did dope at some stage. So there you go, the cancer card again. Cyclingfansanonymous made a brilliant point last winter - If Lance was so worried about cancer awareness, why not ride some obscure tours in a developing country? He rides the Tour of Italy, but doesn't talk to the media, thus seriously diminishing the value to his charity. During the Tour de France, I can't think of anythinh he did, outside of his helmet and some twittering - and that's fine in one sense, but don't keep saying that raising cancer awareness is a big part of your comeback. It isn't. It is about PR, and the product of Lance, and I for one find him f***ing nauseating. Just one line to finish, his good friend, mister Johan Bruyneel had this to say about the doping problems in the early noughties. He said that 'we are having problems because we agreed too easily to blood testing'. And this is Lance's DS.

An example of the hypocrisy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG4odJP-Zuw

Well Lance, you had a chance to enforce what you were talking about, and you dropped him before he got a chance to test you.

 

[Anonymous]

I mentioned this elsewhere, this was just 2 days after dropping out of the Tour of Ireland. The man who conquered cancer and the Tour couldnt be bothered to cycle up a measly little hill in Cork despite the fact there were thousands of people who had stood in the ****ing rain, many just to see him race. Lance is all about the PR and thats what the gig in Dublin was.

I had another one of those great discussions with a non-cycling friend last weekend at the Tour of Ireland. As somebody else pointed out, all they know about cycling is that Lance is a legend coming back from cancer but the sport itself is dirty as hell with drugs, they fail to see the hypocrisy which is what really irritates many of us. When I pointed out that all Lances competitors had been busted for drugs, I asked if it was therefore logical that Lance was clean. The response was 'I guess not'.

I feel bad sometimes for people like Deagol or ScottSoCal who were previously Lance fans but we have opened their eyes, its like taking away thier innocence but really I cannot stand the hypocrisy of Lance as a clean superhero in a very dirty sport. I dont have heroes in this sport.

Truthfully, it was a bit of a let down to realize LA = BS.

The real kick in the nuts for me has been concluding how corrupt the UCI/system is. If it was just about riders taking stupid risks attempting to "game" the system it would be bad enough. But for the world's organizing body to be publically fighting doping while privately supporting the problem just blows me away.

 

[Digger]

Truthfully, it was a bit of a let down to realize LA = BS.

The real kick in the nuts for me has been concluding how corrupt the UCI/system is. If it was just about riders taking stupid risks attempting to "game" the system it would be bad enough. But for the world's organizing body to be publically fighting doping while privately supporting the problem just blows me away.

**** Pound, formerly of WADA, and Hein Verbruggen, the former president of the UCI. The exchange took place after the Festina affair. **** Pound tells the story:

‘I said to him, ‘Damn it, Hein, there’s a real problem in your sport. You really must do something about it.’

He retorted, ‘But it’s the fans’ fault.’

I said, ‘I beg your pardon. How is it the fans’ fault?’

He replied, ‘Well, it’s simple. If they accept to watch a Tour de France at 25km an hour, the riders wouldn’t need all that. But because the fans absolutely require the Tour to run at 42km an hour, the riders have to prepare for it.’

 

[Anonymous]

Truthfully, it was a bit of a let down to realize LA = BS.

The real kick in the nuts for me has been concluding how corrupt the UCI/system is. If it was just about riders taking stupid risks attempting to "game" the system it would be bad enough. But for the world's organizing body to be publically fighting doping while privately supporting the problem just blows me away.

It really does suck, doesn't it? Their efforts are to make cycling look clean, not actually clean up the sport. It is disheartening.

 

[rhubroma]

An example of the hypocrisy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG4odJP-Zuw

Well Lance, you had a chance to enforce what you were talking about, and you dropped him before he got a chance to test you.

I like the bit when he tries to talk aout the ancient Greeks, of which, naturally, he knows absolutely notheing about.

But what takes the cake is when he states that the players' unions of Baseball and Footaball wouldn't stand for their athletes to be tested out of competition, thus basically admiting that doping is a culture in pro sports and that the financial interests of the powerful prevail over those in cleaning sport up.

Thanks Lance, for clarifying that one so well for us.

 

[Hugh Januss]

It really does suck, doesn't it? Their efforts are to make cycling look clean, not actually clean up the sport. It is disheartening.

They do seem to have learned something from the pro sports organizations that make all the money, MLB, NFL, NBA.

 

[Anonymous]

They do seem to have learned something from the pro sports organizations that make all the money, MLB, NFL, NBA.

...its like a virus...

 

[Hugh Januss]

...its like a virus...

Doping? Or money in sports?

 

[Anonymous]

It really does suck, doesn't it? Their efforts are to make cycling look clean, not actually clean up the sport. It is disheartening.

Yep. The conclusion of this, I fear, is that Pro Cycling will eventually have much more in common with Pro Wrestling than an actual sport with an "Olympic Spirit".

How long until we see Contador bash Andy Schleck over the head with a folding chair racing to the top of l'Alpe d'Huez? Actually, I'd probably watch that...

 

[Anonymous]

Doping? Or money in sports?

No, what they learned to mimic.

 

[pmcg76]

And those other 56 who abandoned that day really suck as well. How dare they?

Want to bash Lance? Shrug, don't really care. But at least be even handed about the bashing. There's enough to bash without distorting what happened.

I actually addressed this on the relevant thread, perhaps look at the thread name and you get an idea of where I am coming from. The Tour of Ireland has been marketing itself on Lance this year from the moment it knew he was coming, even my friend said about there being far more marketing around the race than last year. They actually knew it was on this year!!! I never expected him to finish, maybe just go around once for those who had shown up to watch him, dont worry Cavendish didnt score any brownie points this year or last either.

How many of the other pros who dropped out were twittering two days later about going for a ride in a major city, Lance actually seeks the attention so it cuts both ways.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Truthfully, it was a bit of a let down to realize LA = BS.

The real kick in the nuts for me has been concluding how corrupt the UCI/system is. If it was just about riders taking stupid risks attempting to "game" the system it would be bad enough. But for the world's organizing body to be publically fighting doping while privately supporting the problem just blows me away.

Great post - and I empathize with your feelings of being let down as it has happened to me countless times over the years.

It really does suck, doesn't it? Their efforts are to make cycling look clean, not actually clean up the sport. It is disheartening.

This is an excellent post.

This brings me back to the OP by **Uru** - when I write about LA it is not LA bashing or indeed as Bagster said 'Tall Poppy Syndrome".

LA is not the first person to take PED's nor will he be the last and it is indeed the UCI ASO/EPA who have rolled over for his comeback.

I think most comments on LA should be viewed not as a personal affront to him but should be viewed in the broader context of exposing the dark and disgraceful side of our sport.

It should be viewed as to how the media have been manipulated, the truth smothered and the anti-doping efforts watered down in the pursuit to make the sport seem clean.

Also to Bagster - if my motivation to comment on LA was because I didn't have a career better than him then start a thread on Dimitry Muravyev, Kenny Van Hummel or even Adrien Niyonshuti and I will 'swing' by...

 

[Berzin]

You don't have to be American to be American centric. Indeed, English speaking non-Americans tend to be even more American centric due to their anti Americanism.

You obviously never leave your mother's basement long enough to get some fresh air-it's getting stale and jingoistic down there.

Most ignorant Americans(not all, just the ones that are ignorant) who've never traveled anywhere and are blissfully and proudly unaware of any other cultures besides their own will tell you that everyone hates America because they are #1. But if you travel abroad you'd realize that's not the case.

As for the Lance bashing that occurs on certain internet sites, it sounds a lot louder on screen than it does in real life, believe me.

Most people really don't care. The French never cared too much. When Lance shows up to race in France so do the French to watch and cheer for him. So what does that tell you? That your job as crypt keeper for the "Lance Armstrong Egomaniac Express" is not really required.

But nobody is going around claiming they are huge frauds because of this - there is no campaign against them making out they have brought down cycling. Nobody is demanding they retire. I have not heard any details about the people they have fallen out with or their private lives. You're not interested.

So what do you care who gets the focus on this issue or not? The job you've taken up as guardian of Armstrong's virtue has been self-appointed. If you don't like it, start your own site where you can monitor all the Armstrong hate and delete every post that is anti-Lance.

As it is, you come across like a self-righteous, pompous a$$ trying to tell people what and how to think. I'm not bashing you, I'm just pointing out to you that you have no right to tell anyone how to exercise their freedom of speech. If these anti-Lance comments seem hypocritical and/or self-serving to you, well that's just too bad, isn't it?

 

[Anonymous]

You obviously never leave your mother's basement long enough to get some fresh air-it's getting stale and jingoistic down there.

Most ignorant Americans(not all, just the ones that are ignorant) who've never traveled anywhere and are blissfully and proudly unaware of any other cultures besides their own will tell you that everyone hates America because they are #1. But if you travel abroad you'd realize that's not the case.

As for the Lance bashing that occurs on certain internet sites, it sounds a lot louder on screen than it does in real life, believe me.

Most people really don't care. The French never cared too much. When Lance shows up to race in France so do the French to watch and cheer for him. So what does that tell you? That your job as crypt keeper for the "Lance Armstrong Egomaniac Express" is not really required.




So what do you care who gets the focus on this issue or not? The job you've taken up as guardian of Armstrong's virtue has been self-appointed. If you don't like it, start your own site where you can monitor all the Armstrong hate and delete every post that is anti-Lance.

As it is, you come across like a self-righteous, pompous a$$ trying to tell people what and how to think. I'm not bashing you, I'm just pointing out to you that you have no right to tell anyone how to exercise their freedom of speech. If these anti-Lance comments seem hypocritical and/or self-serving to you, well that's just too bad, isn't it?

Welcome. Not too many BPC supporters around here. I think you will fit in nicely.

BTW, excellent post.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I don't have a problem with BPC, at least I take his opinions as opinions, even though I mostly disagree.

Good post though Berzin. I think if you stick around, or do some searching of threads in the past, you'll find a lot of people similar to yourself.

 

[Digger]

Click on the link and scroll down to the last post - Number 39.

This drives me mad. How can you argue with that?

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=180774&page=2

 

[workingclasshero]

Click on the link and scroll down to the last post - Number 39.

This drives me mad. How can you argue with that?

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=180774&page=2

can't everyone just stop loving cancer? now?