Enough Armchair Lance Bashing!

[Digger]

As I am a surgical oncologist I can tell you that your friend is wrong. HCG is used as a marker for the diagnosis of testicular cancer and determining a prognosis. The HCG level correlates with the volume of disease (ie, higher levels, the worse the disease), but still increases above normal reference ranges even when the tumor is not palpable or even bothersome. Apart from diagnosis and determining prognosis, HCG levels are also importantly used for post-treatment screening: If HCG levels do not decrease to normal levels or later increase, then this indicates that there is evidence of metastatic spread. This can occur despite there being no physical (or imaging) evidence of measurable disease. So this blows your friend's theory.

From the Testicular Cancer Resource Center: "Blood tests: Some testicular cancers secrete something called tumor markers, high levels of certain proteins that can be detected through blood tests. These markers of testicular cancer include alpha-fetoprotein (AFP), beta human chorionic gonadotropin (ß-HCG) and lactate dehydrogenase (LDH). If a guy's AFP or HCG level are above normal AND there is something wrong with his testicle, then you can assume that he has testicular cancer. If the tumor markers do not fall back to normal after an orchiectomy, then you can usually assume that the cancer has spread, even if no other tests show where it has gone."

Oldnell, you didn't see the above response coming. You just got owned.
Brilliant!!!

 

[Anonymous]

Only just spotted this. Thanks very much.

There's a large group of them that got kicked off the road bike review forum for anti Armstrong trolling, so they decided to set up camp here, and now they act like they own the place.

I got kicked off RBR for impersonating a white supremest Armstrong loving cyclist from South Dakota, I don't know about the rest of you.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Some have survived the RBR forum cull.
It has degenerated, since a few knowledable, anti-Lance posters, who always backed up their posts with evidence, got the boot.

There is one desperate, cry for help, thread that is getting a lot of replies......mostly childish name calling.....because the above folks are now absent.

They were not alone. Several pro-Lance trolls, Jackhammer being one, also got banned. So, it cuts both ways.

This Oldnell person is either a really bad insomniac, or has forgotten these forums have clocks. French time being tres late, indeed.
(of course, he will now be living elsewhere.....)

He is right on one account, though:

that there are a substantial number of French cyclists and cycling fans who like and respect LA.

True.
Which blows away the French, anti-US conspiracy theorists who have been troll fed this bullshit, by none other than LA, himself.

 

[Dude17]

Start here.

http://velocitynation.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

Thanks for the link. I liked the interview. Interesting his comment that the '99 Tour was relatively clean.

 

[Digger]

Thanks for the link. I liked the interview. Interesting his comment that the '99 Tour was relatively clean.

Of the people tested.

 

[Dude17]

Of the people tested.

True.

Andy Shen: Does that say to you that at that time the peloton was relatively clean?

Ashenden: Yeah, it's an interesting observation, 'cause you cast back to the '98 Tour, obviously it was a debacle. And, I've heard anecdotal or off the cuff remarks, that '99 was a new beginning. It had gotten as bad as it could possibly get, or so we would've thought, and '99 was, "Ok, let's start again, we've really got to make an effort to be clean this year."

Well, obviously, based on Lance Armstrong's results, he wasn't racing clean. But for the rest of the samples collected during the Tour, relatively speaking there wasn't a very high prevalence of EPO use in the rest of the peloton, at least in the peloton that was tested, which was your top 3 place getters, for example.

I would tend to think that since they tested all the stage winners (as well as others, obviously) and found only about 8.1% of the samples (outside of Armstrong's) to be tainted of the 87 samples randomly pulled, that the rest of the peleton was either relatively clean or really weren't doing their doping right to help them win.

 

[Digger]

True.



I would tend to think that since they tested all the stage winners (as well as others, obviously) and found only about 8.1% of the samples (outside of Armstrong's) to be tainted of the 87 samples randomly pulled, that the rest of the peleton was either relatively clean or really weren't doing their doping right to help them win.

MA: The prologue was interesting. First race of the event, every one of those samples had EPO in them. So it seems a little odd, the first day of the next year's race, and all of your place getters have got EPO in their urine. On the one hand, yes, it seemed less prevalent than you would've otherwise thought, but on the other there's still evidence there was doping in the peloton. Not just by Lance Armstrong.

AS: I guess it's possible that some guys were injecting during the Tour, and some had an EPO program leading up to the Tour and counted on the effects to remain with them?

MA: It's conceivable. It's widely known that you don't have to be using EPO to get the benefits. You can have a treatment regime that could last as little as ten days, and the benefits are substantial and they'll stay with you for four weeks afterwards. And certainly for the Tour, which is three weeks. So, you don't have to use EPO during the Tour to get the benefits.

 

[Dude17]

MA: It's conceivable. It's widely known that you don't have to be using EPO to get the benefits. You can have a treatment regime that could last as little as ten days, and the benefits are substantial and they'll stay with you for four weeks afterwards. And certainly for the Tour, which is three weeks. So, you don't have to use EPO during the Tour to get the benefits.

So, they weren't doing their doping right to help them win.

 

[poupou]

In 1999, after Festina, riders were afraid to be raided by police so a lot of teams left their EPO home but they injected a "massive" dose before the race, that is the reason why all tests of the first stage were positive.
Effect of first generation EPO lasts around 2 weeks, of course with a slight decrease in performance, probably they rode the last week in the same physical conditions as a clean rider riding his first week of TDF : fresh and with a hematocrit still high or normal.

 

[marinoni]

Love to help you out but...

Been wanting to rant about something for a while, this is only a rant....

Let me say straight out...I am no Lance fan. I would have preferred that he stayed retired. There is all kinds of smoke around him from his first go round as a pro, as well as his second go round. We all know the stories.

That said, give it a rest. Stop *****ing and moaning, bringing up the same info (accurate or not). Stop crashing any thread about anyone else and adding a comment about Lance being a doper. I am not talking about something that might happen today or in the future. I am referring to tired stories we have all heard countless times before. Until some new info comes along, could we agree to leave the past lie?

I say this because I have always been the type to step in and defend someone who is getting ganged up on. With all the people on this forum that club Lance like he is a defensless baby seal, I am starting to feel sympathy for him...and I do not like it!

Thank you for your time.

...Rant over.

I'd love to help you out but...NO! Thanks for the image though. The next time my baby seal clubbing group gets together I'll know who to think of. Give my swing a little extra somethin.

 

[Anonymous]

I'd love to help you out but...NO! Thanks for the image though. The next time my baby seal clubbing group gets together I'll know who to think of. Give my swing a little extra somethin.

Gives the term "LA Clubbing" new meaning...

 

[Bagster]

Lance bashing is not solely related to whether he doped or not, it is also due to his behaviour, the bullying of Christophe Bassons, his actions in regards to Filippo Simeoni, his duplicitious behaviour towards AC this year, his disrespecting of riders(Sastre/Vandevelde) the way he treated those who left his inner circle, his blatant use of nationalism & stereotyping to slam the French (Cavendish was recently slammed for saying '****ing Frenchies' or something, mild compared to Lances jibe a few years back about the French soccer team testing positive for being assholes). Who remembers that.I could go on and on but if anybody can find a rider who committed as many unclassy deeds in recent times, then please direct us in their direction.

The best thing Lance ever done was retire, the worst thing he ever done was come back. When he is around, too much time, media etc is devoted to him taking away from the rest of the sport. All he brings to the sport is those who know nothing about the sport, who want to know nothing about the sport other than Lance and spend their time defending him based on what he says.

Quite simply, find me another rider who is so easy to dislike.

What he brings to the sport is $$$$$ in media coverage, increased TV viewing which directly relates to increased advertising, increased exposure to the masses who don't obsess on everything doping but just see Lance as the Tiger Woods of cycling. Not to mention the millions of dollars he raises for cancer sufferers around the world...what an *** he is for doing that huh? I don't feel the need to defend him, he speaks his mind and that upsets some people, no different to what Hinault did/does on a frequent basis or Merckx and Antequiel before him...all type A abrasive personalities...all winners. Some of the things that people say about him on these very forums are far worse than anything he has said to others but TFT and his mates are quite happy to hurl rocks around in glass houses oblivious to their own total hypocrisy. At the end of the day much of the criticism of Lance smack very much of a case of losers just hating winners and forums like this are full of wannabe's and never were's who get off on the tall poppy syndrome.

 

[rhubroma]

What he brings to the sport is $$$$$ in media coverage, increased TV viewing which directly relates to increased advertising, increased exposure to the masses who don't obsess on everything doping but just see Lance as the Tiger Woods of cycling. Not to mention the millions of dollars he raises for cancer sufferers around the world...what an *** he is for doing that huh? I don't feel the need to defend him, he speaks his mind and that upsets some people, no different to what Hinault did/does on a frequent basis or Merckx and Antequiel before him...all type A abrasive personalities...all winners. Some of the things that people say about him on these very forums are far worse than anything he has said to others but TFT and his mates are quite happy to hurl rocks around in glass houses oblivious to their own total hypocrisy. At the end of the day much of the criticism of Lance smack very much of a case of losers just hating winners and forums like this are full of wannabe's and never were's who get off on the tall poppy syndrome.

No you don't get it: we could care less about the cash he brings to the sport. And this is a classic American aditude. It all boils down to money.

Believe it or not, In Europe, while things could have been better financially, cycling wasn't exacrtly going bankrupt. And your hypocrisy piont is ludicrous. He's the biggest hypocrit out there.

And finally your point about us being envious is so pathtic. To the contrary that's in regards to his fanboys. Now they, yes, are envious of him and would want nothing more to achieve what he did. Envious of the man...what for?

In the end all the cash and all his fame matters nothing to us who merely judge the man by his character, and for all the reasons mentioned in the post you responded to: LA stinks.

 

[180mmCrank]

Please do NOT respond to this

I think we have proved some kind of Internet Forum Rule here - if you post strongly expressing a view at one end of a spectrum you simply attract copious posts expressing the polar opposite view.

I guess some folks must just enjoy the banter

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I don't know about anyone else, but I envy every single pro cyclist in the peloton. I only wish I had gotten that far in my cycling days.

 

[Digger]

What he brings to the sport is $$$$$ in media coverage, increased TV viewing which directly relates to increased advertising, increased exposure to the masses who don't obsess on everything doping but just see Lance as the Tiger Woods of cycling. Not to mention the millions of dollars he raises for cancer sufferers around the world...what an *** he is for doing that huh? I don't feel the need to defend him, he speaks his mind and that upsets some people, no different to what Hinault did/does on a frequent basis or Merckx and Antequiel before him...all type A abrasive personalities...all winners. Some of the things that people say about him on these very forums are far worse than anything he has said to others but TFT and his mates are quite happy to hurl rocks around in glass houses oblivious to their own total hypocrisy. At the end of the day much of the criticism of Lance smack very much of a case of losers just hating winners and forums like this are full of wannabe's and never were's who get off on the tall poppy syndrome.

Original.
In future you should provide examples to show us how wrong we really were. Other than that, you're just talking sh**.

 

[Mellow Velo]

What he brings to the sport is $$$$$ in media coverage, increased TV viewing which directly relates to increased advertising, increased exposure to the masses who don't obsess on everything doping but just see Lance as the Tiger Woods of cycling. At the end of the day much of the criticism of Lance smack very much of a case of losers just hating winners and forums like this are full of wannabe's and never were's who get off on the tall poppy syndrome.

May be the case in the US, which you have to realise, in terms of Global cycling, is very small potatoes.
In Europe, he has actually had the opposite effect. Maybe in the UK viewing figures have gone up, but actual race coverage has been cut to accommodate more stuff on the man.
As I posted elsewhere. ENECO Tour, an 8 day PT event usually covered live, dropped, for a 3 day jaunt in Ireland.
Elsewhere, there has been no change.

Much of the Euro criticism of Lance tends to stem from the fact that he hogs the headlines, at the expense of other, more newsworthy cycling stories.
It is now, far harder to discuss general pro cycling topics as the info has all but dried up.

 

[beroepsrenner]

I think you are missing Bagsters point. Maybe its the wording? Most sports fans who are not fanatical enough to disect and analyze the facts only see LA as the media portrays him and to them he is the god of cycling. His appearance at the TDU this year proved that. Normally the mainstream media in Australia wouldnt give a toss about cycling but for the week he was here thats all we got.

 

[Digger]

I think you are missing Bagsters point. Maybe its the wording? Most sports fans who are not fanatical enough to disect and analyze the facts only see LA as the media portrays him and to them he is the god of cycling. His appearance at the TDU this year proved that. Normally the mainstream media in Australia wouldnt give a toss about cycling but for the week he was here thats all we got.

You're right. People know Lance, when they wouldn't know many, if any, other cyclists. But my issue is that these people invariably never know how much of his career and reputation has been built on lies. The end result is that they are following and idolising a myth, and we, the people who know better, are then labelled as jealous losers who are full of hate. How can you reason with that? Are we supposed to just keep our mouths shut while these lies are being propogated?

 

[53 x 11]

Normally the mainstream media in Australia wouldnt give a toss about cycling but for the week he was here thats all we got.

That was a bad week.

BTW I dont hate lance because he doped, he's a *** or because his fans have a single brain cell and spend most of their time mopping up their own dribble.

It is bacause A) His socks are black
B) His knicks are too long.

These are two of the worst crimes one can commit in cycling.

 

[Anonymous]

What he brings to the sport is $$$$$ in media coverage, increased TV viewing which directly relates to increased advertising, increased exposure to the masses who don't obsess on everything doping but just see Lance as the Tiger Woods of cycling. Not to mention the millions of dollars he raises for cancer sufferers around the world...what an *** he is for doing that huh? I don't feel the need to defend him, he speaks his mind and that upsets some people, no different to what Hinault did/does on a frequent basis or Merckx and Antequiel before him...all type A abrasive personalities...all winners. Some of the things that people say about him on these very forums are far worse than anything he has said to others but TFT and his mates are quite happy to hurl rocks around in glass houses oblivious to their own total hypocrisy. At the end of the day much of the criticism of Lance smack very much of a case of losers just hating winners and forums like this are full of wannabe's and never were's who get off on the tall poppy syndrome.

Bit of projection there sweetie. Interesting in its psychological implications. See, only one who hero worships and lives vicariously through the achievements of others would see things that way.

I don't have a problem with people who win. I just don't like lying, doping bullies who twitter like 12 year old girls. I think Contador is a doper, but he seems to be a nice doper, and that makes all the difference in the world in terms of vitriol. Lance sets himself up for the criticism he receives by being a tool.

 

[Mellow Velo]

I think you are missing Bagsters point. Maybe its the wording? Most sports fans who are not fanatical enough to disect and analyze the facts only see LA as the media portrays him and to them he is the god of cycling. His appearance at the TDU this year proved that. Normally the mainstream media in Australia wouldnt give a toss about cycling but for the week he was here thats all we got.

Maybe these "fans" aren't even sport's fans, never mind cycling fans, so don't serve any purpose in this sport.
They are just irrelevant numbers, who will contribute nothing to the sport.
Not what I'd call raising the sport's profile.

Interest in the sport, in mainstream countries such as Spain, has been decreasing, over the past decade. If anybody can revert that trend, it will be a youthful Contador, not an aging Armstrong.

The mainstream media are only interested in two things cycling. Lance and high profile doping cases.
How can that be benifical?

 

[bianchigirl]

And one is a lightning rod for the other - despite how much he thinks he is whitewashing his image with the comeback.

At the end of the day there are only so many ways you can say this but it bears repeating - Lance Armstrong raises the profile of Lance Armstrong NOT the sport of professional cycling. Does his coverage for running the NY Marathon raise the profile of the NY Marathon? Or does it serve to further the Armstrong PR machine?

 

[Deagol]

......- despite how much he thinks he is whitewashing his image with the comeback.

....

I, for one, was in favor of Lance’s comeback initially. However, what I have learned since even the Giro has pretty much changed my mind. There was a lot of informative stuff here on the forum, particularly the Asheden interview, but Lance himself- by his own actions- has changed my mind about that. I’m actually still sort of glad he came back, but for a completely different reason. If he had not come back, I probably would not have been exposed to those things that I have learned, and would therefore have a mistaken impression of him and still believe in the myth. So, for that reason, I am glad he came back. I don’t hate him, and I would object for being labeled a “hater” by anyone. I feel that when I was younger, it was easy to jump on the pro-LA bandwagon, but now I view things with more skepticism. I don’t know who to root for anymore, but it won’t be LA. I hope the “comeback” just fizzles out and maybe he does decide to put his full energies into the cancer foundation and leave the racing alone. I think that would be the best way for him to clean his image up, forget the ego trip and use his enormous resources to help people in need. Who knows, if he does do that, maybe I might call myself a fan once again.

 

[issoisso]

I agree with the original poster. That's enough armchair bashing. We should grab our pitchforks and go out on the streets bashing Armstrong.