Evans and his meeting with Ferrari?

[sniper]

I personally found this article very interesting on how Bannan hooked up with Sassi in 2004 to set up a european headquarters for the AIS.
https://cyclingtips.com/2013/06/home-away-from-home-varese-the-ais-and-orica-greenedge/

 

[Neworld]

Re:

That link doesn't really expose anything that I can see other than one poster claiming that Sassi admitted to doping riders when it was supposedly a requirement, and that he was present at Moser's hour record to help administer the blood doping program that Moser was on. No links to back anything up though. I'm going to do a little digging myself to see if I can find any info on these things.

Oh, let's try to play nicely...

I think one needs to remain unbiased here. Cadel is no more talented that high O2 vector users like Ullrich, Oscar P, Alberto C, Andy Schleck, Valverde, Sastre and although Sastre and Evans never tested positive we all know that means next to nothing. I will say that should not condemn them to positive doping either but be real.

Evans was 'always' on a doping team, always climbing with the best and always vying for the top GC...all in the most rancid of doping years. So, it may seem to be a nice tidy bookend story for some people to embrace Cuddles and hope that he and Sastre never doped...the real question is, can someone pls prove he didn't?

Saeco, Mapei and Team Telekom, Davitamon-Lotto, BMC Racing Team
People do know who the President and Manager of BMC Racing was right? --> Jim Ochowicz. If association to Jim O doesn't reek of collusion, you are lost.

That's just how the cookie crumbles folks. Cuddles doped.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/20025582
Cadel...who was his manager (tony Rominger...no EPO use in de Suisse? )

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

That link doesn't really expose anything that I can see other than one poster claiming that Sassi admitted to doping riders when it was supposedly a requirement, and that he was present at Moser's hour record to help administer the blood doping program that Moser was on. No links to back anything up though. I'm going to do a little digging myself to see if I can find any info on these things.

Oh, let's try to play nicely...

I think one needs to remain unbiased here. Cadel is no more talented that high O2 vector users like Ullrich, Oscar P, Alberto C, Andy Schleck, Valverde, Sastre and although Sastre and Evans never tested positive we all know that means next to nothing. I will say that should not condemn them to positive doping either but be real.

Evans was 'always' on a doping team, always climbing with the best and always vying for the top GC...all in the most rancid of doping years. So, it may seem to be a nice tidy bookend story for some people to embrace Cuddles and hope that he and Sastre never doped...the real question is, can someone pls prove he didn't?

Saeco, Mapei and Team Telekom, Davitamon-Lotto, BMC Racing Team
People do know who the President and Manager of BMC Racing was right? --> Jim Ochowicz. If association to Jim O doesn't reek of collusion, you are lost.

That's just how the cookie crumbles folks. Cuddles doped.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/20025582
Cadel...who was his manager (tony Rominger...no EPO use in de Suisse? )

Nobody is saying that Cadel is clean, or dirty. At least I'm not anyway. My point was that I've never heard Aldo Sassi's name linked to doping his riders until I saw it upthread in a post that grouped Sassi, Ferrari and Salzwedal together to infer that any link to them is suspect. Although I agree that being linked to Ferrari and Salwedal does not look good from a sceptic's position, being linked to Sassi doesn't automatically connect the same dots. The conversation revolved around Sassi's reputation, not Cadels cleanliness. I don't think any of us know enough about Sassi to make a determination about him mainly because he's flown under the radar for all these years without being linked to shenanigans that I know of...

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

That link doesn't really expose anything that I can see other than one poster claiming that Sassi admitted to doping riders when it was supposedly a requirement, and that he was present at Moser's hour record to help administer the blood doping program that Moser was on. No links to back anything up though. I'm going to do a little digging myself to see if I can find any info on these things.

Oh, let's try to play nicely...

I think one needs to remain unbiased here. Cadel is no more talented that high O2 vector users like Ullrich, Oscar P, Alberto C, Andy Schleck, Valverde, Sastre and although Sastre and Evans never tested positive we all know that means next to nothing. I will say that should not condemn them to positive doping either but be real.

Evans was 'always' on a doping team, always climbing with the best and always vying for the top GC...all in the most rancid of doping years. So, it may seem to be a nice tidy bookend story for some people to embrace Cuddles and hope that he and Sastre never doped...the real question is, can someone pls prove he didn't?

Saeco, Mapei and Team Telekom, Davitamon-Lotto, BMC Racing Team
People do know who the President and Manager of BMC Racing was right? --> Jim Ochowicz. If association to Jim O doesn't reek of collusion, you are lost.

That's just how the cookie crumbles folks. Cuddles doped.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/20025582
Cadel...who was his manager (tony Rominger...no EPO use in de Suisse? )

Nobody is saying that Cadel is clean, or dirty. At least I'm not anyway. My point was that I've never heard Aldo Sassi's name linked to doping his riders until I saw it upthread in a post that grouped Sassi, Ferrari and Salzwedal together to infer that any link to them is suspect. Although I agree that being linked to Ferrari and Salwedal does not look good from a sceptic's position, being linked to Sassi doesn't automatically connect the same dots. The conversation revolved around Sassi's reputation, not Cadels cleanliness. I don't think any of us know enough about Sassi to make a determination about him mainly because he's flown under the radar for all these years without being linked to shenanigans that I know of...

Not to bring LeMond into this, but what you say above, is pretty much what some folks here have been doing in regards to Greg.

"He's hung around/eaten/been to a party with known dopers....blah blah blah" & it's an automatic" LeMond was doping/has doped before". Guys been in cycling his whole life, he's still going to associate with suspicious folks. I don't get the lumping of so and so to so and so,making them automatically guilty simply by association. But whatever.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Obviously Cadel is the only clean cyclist to win the tour. Lemond could never even come close to the level of Cadel.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
Nobody is saying that Cadel is clean, or dirty. At least I'm not anyway. My point was that I've never heard Aldo Sassi's name linked to doping his riders until I saw it upthread in a post that grouped Sassi, Ferrari and Salzwedal together to infer that any link to them is suspect. Although I agree that being linked to Ferrari and Salwedal does not look good from a sceptic's position, being linked to Sassi doesn't automatically connect the same dots. The conversation revolved around Sassi's reputation, not Cadels cleanliness. I don't think any of us know enough about Sassi to make a determination about him mainly because he's flown under the radar for all these years without being linked to shenanigans that I know of...

That's fair enough, although I fail to see how Salzwedel is more dodgy than Sassi.

Anyhow, Sassi means the Mapei training centre, which Cadel made use of (e.g. here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/mapei-the-greatest-ever-team/) (and I probably should 've said that more explicitly). While Sassi may have been a good man, if Cadel's links to Mapei and the Mapei training centre cannot be called dodgy, I don't know what can. When Ranieri's Leicester City turned out to be using their services, it gave rise to rather specific doping rumors.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Not to bring LeMond into this, but what you say above, is pretty much what some folks here have been doing in regards to Greg.

"He's hung around/eaten/been to a party with known dopers....blah blah blah" & it's an automatic" LeMond was doping/has doped before". Guys been in cycling his whole life, he's still going to associate with suspicious folks. I don't get the lumping of so and so to so and so,making them automatically guilty simply by association. But whatever.

Guilt by association is a poor argument on its own. However, I think it's fair to say there are degrees of guilt by association which may serve as amplifiers to suspicion on other vectors. If one performs at a consistently top level in a highly EPO-charged peloton AND has long and deep associations with known doping doctors and teams, well the latter is an amplifier for the former. I don't think it's unreasonable for that to be part of the overall picture. By itself it's still weak.

That Cadel performed at top levels during the height of the EPO era, which IMO still continues today, is wildly suspicious to me. It's somewhat more suspicious that he was on doping teams with doping doctors all around during a great deal of that time. But the main things which are suspicious IMO are his performances.

This is markedly different than a rider performing at the top level pre EPO, whose performances are markedly slower than those in the EPO era. That there are occasional and tenuous links to doping teams and doctors during that time isn't much of an amplifier when there really isn't anything to amplify.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

That link doesn't really expose anything that I can see other than one poster claiming that Sassi admitted to doping riders when it was supposedly a requirement, and that he was present at Moser's hour record to help administer the blood doping program that Moser was on. No links to back anything up though. I'm going to do a little digging myself to see if I can find any info on these things.

Oh, let's try to play nicely...

I think one needs to remain unbiased here. Cadel is no more talented that high O2 vector users like Ullrich, Oscar P, Alberto C, Andy Schleck, Valverde, Sastre and although Sastre and Evans never tested positive we all know that means next to nothing. I will say that should not condemn them to positive doping either but be real.

Evans was 'always' on a doping team, always climbing with the best and always vying for the top GC...all in the most rancid of doping years. So, it may seem to be a nice tidy bookend story for some people to embrace Cuddles and hope that he and Sastre never doped...the real question is, can someone pls prove he didn't?

Saeco, Mapei and Team Telekom, Davitamon-Lotto, BMC Racing Team
People do know who the President and Manager of BMC Racing was right? --> Jim Ochowicz. If association to Jim O doesn't reek of collusion, you are lost.

That's just how the cookie crumbles folks. Cuddles doped.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/20025582
Cadel...who was his manager (tony Rominger...no EPO use in de Suisse? )

Nobody is saying that Cadel is clean, or dirty. At least I'm not anyway. My point was that I've never heard Aldo Sassi's name linked to doping his riders until I saw it upthread in a post that grouped Sassi, Ferrari and Salzwedal together to infer that any link to them is suspect. Although I agree that being linked to Ferrari and Salwedal does not look good from a sceptic's position, being linked to Sassi doesn't automatically connect the same dots. The conversation revolved around Sassi's reputation, not Cadels cleanliness. I don't think any of us know enough about Sassi to make a determination about him mainly because he's flown under the radar for all these years without being linked to shenanigans that I know of...

No links to shenanigans?
Are we talking about the same Sassi?
Regardless, Sassi means the Mapei training centre (see e.g. link provided above re Bannan), which Cadel made use of (e.g. here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/mapei-the-greatest-ever-team/).
If the Mapei training centre cannot be called dodgy, I don't know what can.
When Ranieri's Leicester City turned out to be using their services, it gave rise to rather specific doping rumors.

"No links to shenanigans that I know of" is what I said. Like I said earlier upthread, I'm going to spend some time doing a little legwork to bring myself up to speed on Aldo Sassi. I honestly don't know what his history has been other than being known as a clean coach. I wouldn't be surprised if he were involved in the things that others have mentioned in that thread you linked earlier. I just want to see it for myself...

 

[ScienceIsCool]

I think one thing that maybe some people have lost sight of is that the doping facilitators such as Ferrari weren't *just* pharmacists. They are/were very good sports doctors and exercise physiologists. One could imagine that even if they only doped 30% of their riders, the other 70% would still conceivably benefit from their experience. And that goes for clean doctors/physiologists. I could see them have collegial contacts with their dirty counterparts while never discussing doping.

My point is that associations alone really don't establish anything. Cycling is a very small world.

John Swanson

 

[Neworld]

Re:

I'm just tossing these vids in...I was doing some searching and found them, and thought maybe others never saw them either.

Evans raging

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FikzgWE3t0A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrpL6BA6PBQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fe79ZuDKfk

 

[kingjr]

No offense, but I'm fairly sure those have been posted plenty of times here and in other cycling forums over the years. You are aware that he had a shoulder injury in the first vid?

How are they relevant to the thread anyway?

 

[Neworld]

Re:

No offense, but I'm fairly sure those have been posted plenty of times here and in other cycling forums over the years. You are aware that he had a shoulder injury in the first vid?

How are they relevant to the thread anyway?

Ferrari, doping, raging over what appears to be minor contact with reporters that are apart of the job when you are winning a sporting event like the TdF...that was rampant with EPO, steroids, cortisol and overall cheating.

Just that, barely relevant for you I guess.

 

[Irondan]

Meh, those video's just prove that Cuddle's can be an ***. The dot's you're trying to connect by watching a person's behavior for a total of 2 minutes is complete innuendo. Of course Evan's could have been doping during those moments in the video's, but you could say that about everyone who is ever caught on tape being an *** too...

 

[Neworld]

Re:

Meh, those video's just prove that Cuddle's can be an *******. The dot's you're trying to connect by watching a person's behavior for a total of 2 minutes is complete innuendo. Of course Evan's could have been doping during those moments in the video's, but you could say that about everyone who is ever caught on tape being an ******* too...

I agree with you.
But it doesn't help him and CN's attempt to honour his amazingly egalitarian clean career.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re:

Obviously Cadel is the only clean cyclist to win the tour. Lemond could never even come close to the level of Cadel.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

Not to bring LeMond into this, but what you say above, is pretty much what some folks here have been doing in regards to Greg.

"He's hung around/eaten/been to a party with known dopers....blah blah blah" & it's an automatic" LeMond was doping/has doped before". Guys been in cycling his whole life, he's still going to associate with suspicious folks. I don't get the lumping of so and so to so and so,making them automatically guilty simply by association. But whatever.

Guilt by association is a poor argument on its own. However, I think it's fair to say there are degrees of guilt by association which may serve as amplifiers to suspicion on other vectors. If one performs at a consistently top level in a highly EPO-charged peloton AND has long and deep associations with known doping doctors and teams, well the latter is an amplifier for the former. I don't think it's unreasonable for that to be part of the overall picture. By itself it's still weak.

That Cadel performed at top levels during the height of the EPO era, which IMO still continues today, is wildly suspicious to me. It's somewhat more suspicious that he was on doping teams with doping doctors all around during a great deal of that time. But the main things which are suspicious IMO are his performances.

This is markedly different than a rider performing at the top level pre EPO, whose performances are markedly slower than those in the EPO era. That there are occasional and tenuous links to doping teams and doctors during that time isn't much of an amplifier when there really isn't anything to amplify.

Agreed. But in the LeMond III thread, it's mostly become a "Greg was see with so and so, still hangs with known dopers, he's doped", as if that's proof he did.

Its just hilarious to me that people keep coming up with strawman or weak examples of "evidence" of Greg doping, yet provide no concrete proof. Its just " he was seen having dinner with Merckx, therefore because Merckx is an admitted doper, Greg's not only a rotten person, but he's a doper", simply because of that reason.

 

[King Boonen]

The Lemond thread was locked for a reason, lets not have it start again in this thread.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

That link doesn't really expose anything that I can see other than one poster claiming that Sassi admitted to doping riders when it was supposedly a requirement, and that he was present at Moser's hour record to help administer the blood doping program that Moser was on. No links to back anything up though. I'm going to do a little digging myself to see if I can find any info on these things.

Oh, let's try to play nicely...

I think one needs to remain unbiased here. Cadel is no more talented that high O2 vector users like Ullrich, Oscar P, Alberto C, Andy Schleck, Valverde, Sastre and although Sastre and Evans never tested positive we all know that means next to nothing. I will say that should not condemn them to positive doping either but be real.

Evans was 'always' on a doping team, always climbing with the best and always vying for the top GC...all in the most rancid of doping years. So, it may seem to be a nice tidy bookend story for some people to embrace Cuddles and hope that he and Sastre never doped...the real question is, can someone pls prove he didn't?

Saeco, Mapei and Team Telekom, Davitamon-Lotto, BMC Racing Team
People do know who the President and Manager of BMC Racing was right? --> Jim Ochowicz. If association to Jim O doesn't reek of collusion, you are lost.

That's just how the cookie crumbles folks. Cuddles doped.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/20025582
Cadel...who was his manager (tony Rominger...no EPO use in de Suisse? )

Nobody is saying that Cadel is clean, or dirty. At least I'm not anyway. My point was that I've never heard Aldo Sassi's name linked to doping his riders until I saw it upthread in a post that grouped Sassi, Ferrari and Salzwedal together to infer that any link to them is suspect. Although I agree that being linked to Ferrari and Salwedal does not look good from a sceptic's position, being linked to Sassi doesn't automatically connect the same dots. The conversation revolved around Sassi's reputation, not Cadels cleanliness. I don't think any of us know enough about Sassi to make a determination about him mainly because he's flown under the radar for all these years without being linked to shenanigans that I know of...

No links to shenanigans?
Are we talking about the same Sassi?
Regardless, Sassi means the Mapei training centre (see e.g. link provided above re Bannan), which Cadel made use of (e.g. here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/mapei-the-greatest-ever-team/).
If the Mapei training centre cannot be called dodgy, I don't know what can.
When Ranieri's Leicester City turned out to be using their services, it gave rise to rather specific doping rumors.

"No links to shenanigans that I know of" is what I said. Like I said earlier upthread, I'm going to spend some time doing a little legwork to bring myself up to speed on Aldo Sassi. I honestly don't know what his history has been other than being known as a clean coach. I wouldn't be surprised if he were involved in the things that others have mentioned in that thread you linked earlier. I just want to see it for myself...

Cheers and fair enough of course.

Do we have testimonies/claims about him being a clean coach from anybody besides himself and the riders he's coached? Honest question.

 

[Irondan]

Re:

The Lemond thread was locked for a reason, lets not have it start again in this thread.

Bingo...

 

[veganrob]

So maybe there is no compelling evidence to state unequically that Evans doped, but there is a lot of evidence to suggest he did. So when a poster poses some questions that he is shot down like in the Lemond thread.
Closing the Lemond thread was just plain lame. If people don't agree with what sniper or anyonre else posts and get all hurt about it, don't post there. I for one find most of what he posts gives reason to think. And I appreciate it. Maybe I don't agree with it all but so what. Food for Thought. I was 21 when Greg first won TdF so am familiar somewhat with what was going on. I am on record as thinking Greg was an incredible talent and mostly clean. I am willing to be convinced differently.
I will never post in any of the vegan threads because I am not going to get into it with a staunch believer in eaing meat. It's futile. So if people don't like Greg or Cadel being looked at suspiciously, stay out of it. Or, post without killing the messenger.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

So maybe there is no compelling evidence to state unequically that Evans doped, but there is a lot of evidence to suggest he did. So when a poster poses some questions that he is shot down like in the Lemond thread.
Closing the Lemond thread was just plain lame. If people don't agree with what sniper or anyonre else posts and get all hurt about it, don't post there. I for one find most of what he posts gives reason to think. And I appreciate it. Maybe I don't agree with it all but so what. Food for Thought. I was 21 when Greg first won TdF so am familiar somewhat with what was going on. I am on record as thinking Greg was an incredible talent and mostly clean. I am willing to be convinced differently.
I will never post in any of the vegan threads because I am not going to get into it with a staunch believer in eaing meat. It's futile. So if people don't like Greg or Cadel being looked at suspiciously, stay out of it. Or, post without killing the messenger.

The problem isn't rational discourse. I, and many others, have no problem with someone who believes something that I don't. Discussing a contentious issue can be quite rewarding.

However...

Baseless assertions, innuendo, misrepresentation of facts, dropping context to promote a false viewpoint, repetition of proven falsities and presenting conjecture as reality poison the ability to talk at any rational level. That's why people are abandoning otherwise good threads like the Lemond one. Too much chaff and not enough wheat. Try to winnow away and all you get is another load of chaff.

John Swanson

 

[ScienceIsCool]

BTW, this thread is a good example of what I was talking about. With absolutely no reference sources, we're left cleaning up baseless accusations against Sassi. And believe me, it will be brought up time and again that Sassi is sketchy or otherwise suspicious. Poof. There goes the thread.

John Swanson

 

[Irondan]

Re:

So maybe there is no compelling evidence to state unequically that Evans doped, but there is a lot of evidence to suggest he did. So when a poster poses some questions that he is shot down like in the Lemond thread.
Closing the Lemond thread was just plain lame. If people don't agree with what sniper or anyonre else posts and get all hurt about it, don't post there. I for one find most of what he posts gives reason to think. And I appreciate it. Maybe I don't agree with it all but so what. Food for Thought. I was 21 when Greg first won TdF so am familiar somewhat with what was going on. I am on record as thinking Greg was an incredible talent and mostly clean. I am willing to be convinced differently.
I will never post in any of the vegan threads because I am not going to get into it with a staunch believer in eaing meat. It's futile. So if people don't like Greg or Cadel being looked at suspiciously, stay out of it. Or, post without killing the messenger.

Please... If you or anyone else has an issue with the Lemond III thread being closed please post it in the proper thread, which would be the "Moderators" thread. I'm asking nicely, please.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

BTW, this thread is a good example of what I was talking about. With absolutely no reference sources, we're left cleaning up baseless accusations against Sassi. And believe me, it will be brought up time and again that Sassi is sketchy or otherwise suspicious. Poof. There goes the thread.

John Swanson

Baseless?

I would have thought that a guy who made a living from the sport of cycling as a trainer/coach and was involved with the Mapei sports centre is suspicious.

“In the bible, the prophet Jonah speaks to God of the city of Nineveh, which is overrun with criminals. ‘How many just men are there?’ they ask. Maybe five. ‘Then I won’t destroy it,’ said God. In my cycling Nineveh, I can count on seven just men,” Sassi told Gazzetta dello Sport.

Sassi’s magnificent seven are Evans, Basso, Dario Cioni (Sky), Cameron Wurf (Androni), Kjell Carlström (Sky), Charlie Wegelius (Omega Pharma-Lotto) and Eros Capecchi (Footon-Servetto).

:lol:

 

[veganrob]

Re: Re:

BTW, this thread is a good example of what I was talking about. With absolutely no reference sources, we're left cleaning up baseless accusations against Sassi. And believe me, it will be brought up time and again that Sassi is sketchy or otherwise suspicious. Poof. There goes the thread.

John Swanson

Baseless?

I would have thought that a guy who made a living from the sport of cycling as a trainer/coach and was involved with the Mapei sports centre is suspicious.

“In the bible, the prophet Jonah speaks to God of the city of Nineveh, which is overrun with criminals. ‘How many just men are there?’ they ask. Maybe five. ‘Then I won’t destroy it,’ said God. In my cycling Nineveh, I can count on seven just men,” Sassi told Gazzetta dello Sport.

Sassi’s magnificent seven are Evans, Basso, Dario Cioni (Sky), Cameron Wurf (Androni), Kjell Carlström (Sky), Charlie Wegelius (Omega Pharma-Lotto) and Eros Capecchi (Footon-Servetto).

:lol:

Excellent!