Evans and his meeting with Ferrari?

[sniper]

And don't forget that ARD's claim is of "systematic" doping.
http://www.ilgiornale.it/news/mapei-doping-era-sistematico.html
But maybe you're saying Sassi was some kind of Seb Coe avant la lettre?

Corruption above, corruption below. But the guy in the middle didn't see nothing.

Also, Squinzi didn't really pull the plug. He just decided to focus his money on the Mapei Sports Centre.

 

[sniper]

to be sure, when I said "Mapei decided to stop as a team sponsor mainly because of the above two doping scandals", that's incorrect. The ARD revelations are from 2007.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

So maybe there is no compelling evidence to state unequically that Evans doped, but there is a lot of evidence to suggest he did. So when a poster poses some questions that he is shot down like in the Lemond thread.
Closing the Lemond thread was just plain lame. If people don't agree with what sniper or anyonre else posts and get all hurt about it, don't post there. I for one find most of what he posts gives reason to think. And I appreciate it. Maybe I don't agree with it all but so what. Food for Thought. I was 21 when Greg first won TdF so am familiar somewhat with what was going on. I am on record as thinking Greg was an incredible talent and mostly clean. I am willing to be convinced differently.
I will never post in any of the vegan threads because I am not going to get into it with a staunch believer in eaing meat. It's futile. So if people don't like Greg or Cadel being looked at suspiciously, stay out of it. Or, post without killing the messenger.

The problem isn't rational discourse. I, and many others, have no problem with someone who believes something that I don't. Discussing a contentious issue can be quite rewarding.

However...

Baseless assertions, innuendo, misrepresentation of facts, dropping context to promote a false viewpoint, repetition of proven falsities and presenting conjecture as reality poison the ability to talk at any rational level. That's why people are abandoning otherwise good threads like the Lemond one. Too much chaff and not enough wheat. Try to winnow away and all you get is another load of chaff.

John Swanson

Bingo......That's exactly what I mean

 

[sniper]

This press release clearly suggests the riders were taking orders to dope in 2001.

Demnach soll den Sportlern im Jahr 2001 bei dem heute unter dem Namen QuickStep agierenden Rennstall dauerhaft das Anabolikum Andriol verabreicht worden sein. Zudem sollen das Hormon EPO, Oxandrolon und auch höchstwahrscheinlich synthetisches Insulin zum Einsatz gekommen sein.

The athletes would have been administered long-term the Anabolic Andriol. In addition the hormone EPO, Oxandrolon and most lkely synthetic Insuline came into action.
http://www.rad-net.de/nachrichten/ard-unterlagen-ueber-doping-im-radteam-mapei;n_12079.html

It was team-wide. It was long-term. The riders were recipients.
Good luck arguing neither Squinzi nor Sassi was in on this.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

"

“He said, ‘I am clean, I am sure of it.’ He said that but I could not understand how he did what he did. I said, ‘Maybe it is clear for you, but it is not for me. And I prefer to sleep well.’"

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/aldo-sassi-the-philosophy-of-coaching-1349#mpVfbjfmFBJ3hxek.99

All I'm asking is a reference source to a doping scandal or someone outing him as a facilitator of doping or whatnot. Since he's worked with known dopers, yeah we should ask if he's dirty! He might well be. But you also have to realize that a cycling coach will coach cyclists... Not all of them are going to be clean.

John Swanson

Not to be adversarial John, but you seek 'references' and scientific facts to be presented to support commentary, yet you offer up an article about Sassi which is basically Sassi's personal comments on how he is clean blah blah blah. Very Johan B-like hyperbole. Try to present some facts as well please.

As for my initial unfounded, and they are I agree, comments...they were wrt Cadel and the original CN article from earlier this week.

I find it completely disingenuous to believe, even for a second, that at the height of sophisticate doping, on all the doping teams that Cadel was a member, with Tony Rominger as a mentor, Jim Och. as president and manager, while battling with all GC winners, and eventually winning the TdF himself, not to mention all the other fake honourable wins like TdRomandie...that Cadel is anything but a tainted rider.

As for the necessary provision of facts to back it up, there are very few facts available on the internet, in CN Clinic forums or elsewhere to book Mr. Evans. Like most doping, one needs to connect the dots unless someone is so stupid to let themselves get caught.

If Cadel was indeed working/involved with Och, then that's a HUGE red flag for me, as Och has doped teams as far back as 7 Eleven & everyone's favorite Uniballer, Wonderboy himself(Wheelmen). So knowing that, yeah I believe he doped.

 

[Nick C.]

Is it too silly to state if you are a "clean doctor" you wouldn't be in the business of helping athletes specifically, you would be in the business of treating and caring for patients from all walks of life.

 

[Neworld]

Re: Re:

If Cadel was indeed working/involved with Och, then that's a HUGE red flag for me, as Och has doped teams as far back as 7 Eleven & everyone's favorite Uniballer, Wonderboy himself(Wheelmen). So knowing that, yeah I believe he doped.

Don't trust me, look it up. Jimmy 'if you have a vein I will puncture it' Och...was the president and the manager.

As a slight aside, before CN posted the recent intellectually insulting expose on how amazing Cuddles was, did they consult Cadel...

<CN reporter>
"Hey Cuddles, we're thinking 'cause you're a home-grown clean Aussie cyclist, we'd blow sunshine up your butt and write a flattering synopsis of your career. What do you think?"

<Cuddles-with corroborating high-pitched voice>
"Umm, ripper mate I'm out just walking Bluey right now, err, that would bloody nice and all and almost makes me crack a fat one. It is really close to the Great Ocean ride that I sponsor, but me thinks it will bring too much light to my sordid past with that kind of bad Doco. Could you wait a few more years until I make it into the Australian Hall of Fame?"

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

"

“He said, ‘I am clean, I am sure of it.’ He said that but I could not understand how he did what he did. I said, ‘Maybe it is clear for you, but it is not for me. And I prefer to sleep well.’"

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/aldo-sassi-the-philosophy-of-coaching-1349#mpVfbjfmFBJ3hxek.99

All I'm asking is a reference source to a doping scandal or someone outing him as a facilitator of doping or whatnot. Since he's worked with known dopers, yeah we should ask if he's dirty! He might well be. But you also have to realize that a cycling coach will coach cyclists... Not all of them are going to be clean.

John Swanson

Not to be adversarial John, but you seek 'references' and scientific facts to be presented to support commentary, yet you offer up an article about Sassi which is basically Sassi's personal comments on how he is clean blah blah blah. Very Johan B-like hyperbole. Try to present some facts as well please.

As for my initial unfounded, and they are I agree, comments...they were wrt Cadel and the original CN article from earlier this week.

I find it completely disingenuous to believe, even for a second, that at the height of sophisticate doping, on all the doping teams that Cadel was a member, with Tony Rominger as a mentor, Jim Och. as president and manager, while battling with all GC winners, and eventually winning the TdF himself, not to mention all the other fake honourable wins like TdRomandie...that Cadel is anything but a tainted rider.

As for the necessary provision of facts to back it up, there are very few facts available on the internet, in CN Clinic forums or elsewhere to book Mr. Evans. Like most doping, one needs to connect the dots unless someone is so stupid to let themselves get caught.

Good post. All common sense really.

- You don't present claims of cleanliness from the horses mouth as fact.
- Until evidence to the contrary surfaces, there is no reason to assume there were many clean riders in the peloton in the period in which Cadel was active. And whilst there may have been a couple, how likely are they to have become GT winners? It would be against all odds.

But fair game to John. If you believe Lemond did it on paniagua, it would be a bit hypocritical to claim Cadel couldn't do it on paniagua.

As for those links you provided earlier, I think they still count as some of the most convincing reallife examples of the phenomenon known as roid rage. The way Cadel went from a tender, lean athlete, to a bulky English fullback always seemed suspicious, especially seeing him climb with the best despite that added muscle weight.
Whether that was steroids or HGH, or a combo, we will likely never know. EPO in any case.

Digger (or Vayerims, not sure) had an interesting tweet on Cadel too. Allegedly Cuddles was closer to Ferrari than he alleges to have been.

Someone on Twitter commented Cadel likely pioneered helium doping, judging on his voice.

To the bolded–he didn't present anything as fact. He rather clearly said,

Since he's worked with known dopers, yeah we should ask if he's dirty! He might well be.

Never mind that one is free to present testimony from a person in question as evidence. It is incredibly relevant, whether true or not. You can believe it or not, but it is evidence worth discussing. Obviously.

Again you bring up Lemond. Pretty sure everyone was instructed by Irondan or one of the mods not to rehash that thread in this one.

 

[sniper]

The thread has moved on Red, try to keep up instead of playing watchdog and making it about the poster...again.

@tdf86winner, good point and Interesting about ochowicz. Does he have a thread of his own? Deserves one for sure.
Either Way the cases of Cadel and people like Och and Sassi and Squinzi brilliantly illustrate how small the world of cycling is and how little has changed.

 

[sniper]

Evans' marginal gains in 2011:

Asked about his good form after he spectacularly won Tirreno’s stage 6 on the cobblestone streets of Macerata on Monday (BMC Racing’s first victory of the year), Evans said, “The program developed with the Centro Mapei this year has been slightly different and now I am seeing the results.” That program has included spending the winter at his new home in southern Switzerland (instead of Australia), getting in more base training and motor-paced sessions (behind the scooter driven by his Italian wife Chiara), and starting his racing season two months later than 2010.
http://www.velonews.com/2011/03/news/inside-cycling-with-john-wilcockson-martin-evans-burnish-their-clean-racing-image_163962#ZsKQt4mVSgOJh5Ri.99

 

[sniper]

Good post on Squinzi/Mapei's (highly successful) collaborations with various football clubs.
Interesting also on R. Sassi, A.Sassi's brother.

Squinzi also tells us about other football teams who they have been affiliated with. Circa 2012 they began working with Juventus and Monaco, along with their affiliation with Sassuolo (owned by Squinzi.) Juventus have obviously been hugely sucessful, with landmarks such as an unbeaten season, record Serie A points tally, and multiple consecutive titles. Monaco, co-incidentally under Ranieri, won the second division in France and then finished 2nd in their first season in the top division. It should be said that they did also have a lot of money supporting them. Sassuolo have risen multiple divisions in a very short space of time and will compete in European competition for the first time this season.
Prior to this, Mapei were working with Chelsea.
....

Roberto Sassi, who is Aldo Sassi's brother. While Aldo remained in cycling, Roberto moved into football with Fiorentina in 1993 until 1997. Ranieri was manager there during this time. R.Sassi then went to Valencia (97-99,) Atletico (99-00,) Chelsea (00-04) and then Valencia (04-05.) Ranieri was the manager at all of these clubs as well, obviously enjoying a good working relationship with R.Sassi. When Ranieri leaves Valencia and becomes unemployed for a number of years, R.Sassi then joins Juventus in 2011 just as their affiliation with Mapei begins. He has been there ever since.
viewtopic.php?p=2000432#p2000432

 

[Benotti69]

Landis reckons the dopers are always at least one step ahead.

When Anti-doping is a pr show, how then can a rider win over 3 weeks without PEDs?

Not possible.

 

[Neworld]

Re:

Landis reckons the dopers are always at least one step ahead.

When Anti-doping is a pr show, how then can a rider win over 3 weeks without PEDs?

Not possible.

Agreed.

And yet, CN writes a complimentary Doco about him and now there is even a PODCAST for Cuddles ... Again and again we circle back into the pit of doping despair. Is there a paucity of interesting historical or current cycling 'people' to write about? So sad.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re:

The thread has moved on Red, try to keep up instead of playing watchdog and making it about the poster...again.

@tdf86winner, good point and Interesting about ochowicz. Does he have a thread of his own? Deserves one for sure.
Either Way the cases of Cadel fand people like Och and Sassi and Squinzi brilliantly illustrate how small the world of cycling is and how little has changed.

Check out the excellent book "Wheelmen"(if you haven't already). It goes into very in depth detail on Och and his involvement in doping. Had no idea he was involved in it as far back as the 7 Eleven team.

That said, there's 2 or 3 guys off that 7 Eleven team I Do not think doped, Davis Phinney( I don't think he needed to, he was a highly decorated American rider, with something like 200+ wins in his career) & the Others being Andy Hampsten & Steven Bauer, again, No need for them to IMO.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

If Cadel was indeed working/involved with Och, then that's a HUGE red flag for me, as Och has doped teams as far back as 7 Eleven & everyone's favorite Uniballer, Wonderboy himself(Wheelmen). So knowing that, yeah I believe he doped.

Don't trust me, look it up. Jimmy 'if you have a vein I will puncture it' Och...was the president and the manager.

As a slight aside, before CN posted the recent intellectually insulting expose on how amazing Cuddles was, did they consult Cadel...

<CN reporter>
"Hey Cuddles, we're thinking 'cause you're a home-grown clean Aussie cyclist, we'd blow sunshine up your butt and write a flattering synopsis of your career. What do you think?"

<Cuddles-with corroborating high-pitched voice>
"Umm, ripper mate I'm out just walking Bluey right now, err, that would bloody nice and all and almost makes me crack a fat one. It is really close to the Great Ocean ride that I sponsor, but me thinks it will bring too much light to my sordid past with that kind of bad Doco. Could you wait a few more years until I make it into the Australian Hall of Fame?"

Lol! I totally believe you.

 

[yaco]

Re:

So Chiara and Cadel have split - nothing good about that. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3093678/End-road-cycling-champion-Cadel-wife-Long-distance-career-spells-end-couple-s-ten-year-marriage-vow-stay-friends-adopted-son.html

I did not know that they had tried to have kids for years and failed - I was under the naive impression their adoption was purely charitable.

We know exogenous testosterone affects sperm production This latest revelation seems almost an indictment?

Any chance there could have been an issue on the female side.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

So Chiara and Cadel have split - nothing good about that. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3093678/End-road-cycling-champion-Cadel-wife-Long-distance-career-spells-end-couple-s-ten-year-marriage-vow-stay-friends-adopted-son.html

I did not know that they had tried to have kids for years and failed - I was under the naive impression their adoption was purely charitable.

We know exogenous testosterone affects sperm production This latest revelation seems almost an indictment?

Any chance there could have been an issue on the female side.

Oh please you are killing the drama !

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

The thread has moved on Red, try to keep up instead of playing watchdog and making it about the poster...again.

@tdf86winner, good point and Interesting about ochowicz. Does he have a thread of his own? Deserves one for sure.
Either Way the cases of Cadel fand people like Och and Sassi and Squinzi brilliantly illustrate how small the world of cycling is and how little has changed.

Check out Juliet Merciers excellent book "Wheelmen"(if you haven't already). It goes into very in depth detail on Och and his involvement in doping. Had no idea he was involved in it as far back as the 7 Eleven team.

That said, there's 2 or 3 guys off that 7 Eleven team I Do not think doped, Davis Phinney( I don't think he needed to, he was a highly decorated American rider, with something like 200+ wins in his career) & the Others being Andy Hampsten & Steven Bauer, again, No need for them to IMO.

The same thing was said of Evans when he was at Telekom. He seemed to be the odd man out, They promised him a Tour selection if he won the Tour of Austria but changed their minds after he won.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

Landis reckons the dopers are always at least one step ahead.

When Anti-doping is a pr show, how then can a rider win over 3 weeks without PEDs?

Not possible.

Most dopers say the same thing. They think it makes them look more like victims than abusers of the system. Armstrong would agree of course as would Ricco and many others. Vino wouldn't answer the question or look for Kazakhstan on the horizon and change the subject. Contador would say "my English is not so good" and shrug his shoulders. Menchov the same.

 

[Neworld]

http://www.theroar.com.au/2012/10/26/i-was-a-victim-of-doping-scandal-evans/

Evans reiterated there had been a concerted effort to clean up the sport from within the peloton since he finished eighth in his maiden Tour de France in 2005. “From someone who rides in the front group, I can see and feel there has been a lot of change,” he said.
“In every way, it is the mentality of the cycling and teams, this has been what has caused the changes.”

There you have it, Cadel rides in the front group and is clean, despite being surrounded by dopers. Bravo Cadel, the Academy award awaits you.

 

[sniper]

Re:

http://www.theroar.com.au/2012/10/26/i-was-a-victim-of-doping-scandal-evans/

Evans reiterated there had been a concerted effort to clean up the sport from within the peloton since he finished eighth in his maiden Tour de France in 2005. “From someone who rides in the front group, I can see and feel there has been a lot of change,” he said.
“In every way, it is the mentality of the cycling and teams, this has been what has caused the changes.”

There you have it, Cadel rides in the front group and is clean, despite being surrounded by dopers. Bravo Cadel, the Academy award awaits you.

This is from Evans' former mentor Heiko Salzwedel, also in 2005 (when Heiko was at T-Mobile). You just couldn't make it up:

To the case of Dario Frigo I join the opinion of Jean-Marie Leblanc. The Italian is one of the few diehards who simply refuse to believe that since a few years a new wind is blowing in professional cycling. As a sign of the new era in professional cycling, I also value the fact that it was Frigos team Fassa Bortolo itself, the police provided the vital clue. The team managers have long recognized the signs of the time and the new policy already internalized in the fight against doping. The riders, who still dope themselves are, in my opinion, belong to an endangered species. What we are experiencing now, are no more than the last convulsions. http://www.radsport-aktiv.de/freizeit/freizeitnews_35195.htm

 

[doperhopper]

Re: Re:

http://www.theroar.com.au/2012/10/26/i-was-a-victim-of-doping-scandal-evans/

Evans reiterated there had been a concerted effort to clean up the sport from within the peloton since he finished eighth in his maiden Tour de France in 2005. “From someone who rides in the front group, I can see and feel there has been a lot of change,” he said.
“In every way, it is the mentality of the cycling and teams, this has been what has caused the changes.”

There you have it, Cadel rides in the front group and is clean, despite being surrounded by dopers. Bravo Cadel, the Academy award awaits you.

This is from Evans' former mentor Heiko Salzwedel, also in 2005 (when Heiko was at T-Mobile). You just couldn't make it up:

To the case of Dario Frigo I join the opinion of Jean-Marie Leblanc. The Italian is one of the few diehards who simply refuse to believe that since a few years a new wind is blowing in professional cycling. As a sign of the new era in professional cycling, I also value the fact that it was Frigos team Fassa Bortolo itself, the police provided the vital clue. The team managers have long recognized the signs of the time and the new policy already internalized in the fight against doping. The riders, who still dope themselves are, in my opinion, belong to an endangered species. What we are experiencing now, are no more than the last convulsions. http://www.radsport-aktiv.de/freizeit/freizeitnews_35195.htm

great quote about "endangered species", especially from nowadays "men in danger" (wiggo, brailsfraud)

 

[Mr.38%]

Re: Re:

To the case of Dario Frigo I join the opinion of Jean-Marie Leblanc. The Italian is one of the few diehards who simply refuse to believe that since a few years a new wind is blowing in professional cycling. As a sign of the new era in professional cycling, I also value the fact that it was Frigos team Fassa Bortolo itself, the police provided the vital clue. The team managers have long recognized the signs of the time and the new policy already internalized in the fight against doping. The riders, who still dope themselves are, in my opinion, belong to an endangered species. What we are experiencing now, are no more than the last convulsions. http://www.radsport-aktiv.de/freizeit/freizeitnews_35195.htm

From the same essay:
"Jaksche ist ein untadeliger Sportsmann, freundlich und umgänglich, überhaupt nicht egoistisch. Als Kapitän muss man aber genau das auch sein können. Aber Manolo Saiz hat offenbar erkannt, dass er jetzt auf seinen Deutschen im Team setzen muss, weil die Kapitäne Heras und Beloki enttäuschen. Jaksche spielt jetzt endlich sein Talent aus und wenn er genügend Teamunterstützung erfährt, kann er in seiner neuen Rolle über sich hinaus wachsen."
Translate and laugh.

 

[Neworld]

Love the riders surrounding Cadel in this pic. All above board, translucently clean, cyclists.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-former-doctor-likens-fluimucil-story-to-the-armstrong-days/

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

Love the riders surrounding Cadel in this pic. All above board, translucently clean, cyclists.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-former-doctor-likens-fluimucil-story-to-the-armstrong-days/

Vino looks the most relaxed of course.