• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Evans, to dispel a few myths

Page 2 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Mar 11, 2009
3,274
1
0
Visit site
filipo said:
Granted Hincapie is generally regarded as the consummate team worker, but I wonder if his friendship with Armstrong will come into play at all wrt supporting Evans at the Tour.

Isn't he still pi5sed Astana assisted the chase that cost him the yellow jersey last tour?
 
Jun 16, 2009
19,654
2
0
Visit site
filipo said:
Granted Hincapie is generally regarded as the consummate team worker, but I wonder if his friendship with Armstrong will come into play at all wrt supporting Evans at the Tour.

Hincapie has the professionalism to work for a leader. Hincapie was pulling hard for AC on the descent of the peyresoude which effectively cost evans the tour. Hopefully the roles are changes in 2010.
 
Evans

Evans had to make a move but is it the right one ? I thought he should have made the move before he signed his last contract with Lotto. Ballan and Hincapie won't provide much support on the mountain stages but of course Hincapie's experience and dedication will be invaluable. Hopefully BMC have an open cheque book and some quality riders are still on the market. Otherwise Evan's has just swapped teams of similar levels.

Obviously the big win is getting away from Lotto management who seem clueless about most things. Too bad he could not have taken Lloyd with him. Gilbert will also be disappointed because he and Evan's seemed to be developing an understanding in the classics. Hopefully now Evans can concentrate on what he does best ; racing.
 
Jun 16, 2009
759
0
0
www.oxygencycles.com
skidmark said:
Really? What was his contract that he signed with Lotto when he went there? Was it long-term? Well-paid? The way I remember things, he was not considered a Tour contender in 2005, and the team was built around getting Robbie the green, but Cadel rode surprisingly well. Then in 2006, they made a few concessions towards Cadel but still seemed to be mostly riding for McEwen. After a second strong finish, they put more resources behind Evans in 07 and 08, not enough to really help, but enough to drive McEwen to Katusha. From that, it seems to me like the team didn't really take a leap of faith in him, he proved his worth to them in a few Tours and they decided that they had something good on their hands.

But I don't know the details of his initial contract, that's just me coming from a casual fan standpoint.

My understanding was Cadel was originally signed on a performance based contract, and Lotto had relatively low expectations when they drafted the contract. Which is why he ended up being so highly paid when became the top-ranked rider in the world.

At least that's what I read somewhere...
 
Jul 14, 2009
2,498
0
0
Visit site
I see no myths or misinformation that was cleared up by Cuddle Evans. We don't have much of a cycle sport press in the US. The few we do have painted him as a complete bed wetter and a big f#$%ing baby. Living in the US will be easier for a awhile but BMC is a long shot at best
 
May 6, 2009
8,522
1
0
Visit site
blackcat said:
was he travelling separately in the last few years at the Tour. That is a big error. Partly, there are pragmatics, if he is held for controls. And he needed Serge.

But Evans was voted down 8-1 by my sources, at the Worlds this year. Bannan and Stephens wanted to go behind one team leader, and 8 votes were fore Gerrans, and only Evans voted for himself. And Evans refused to work for Gerrans. Rightly so, but I also thought Gerrans was more potent, because he could put anyone to the sword if it came to a 5 man sprint, where Evans had to get away off the front, and I saw no history that it could occur for CE.

Evans is not a leader of men. Might be from his family background, and then his mtb history. His natural personality is not alpha male-sporting-beer and groupies type. He does not gel with the teams he has been on. And he has not altered a false facade to get in with the boys. Ingratiate himself, get on the ****, go to the strippers. He does not have that in him, but he could not orchestrate the support he needed.

I read an interview with Serge, and it was Serge who suggested to Cadel that he get into a team car after each stage because he would get to the hotel 20 minutes before the bus would and so thus he could start his massage earlier (and get a longer one) and recovery a lot quicker. Cadel did not really want to do this, but he followed Serge's advice after he had gone from being Lance's bodyguard, and saw that if it worked for Lance, then it would for him as well.

Mind you Serge is a policeman by trade, and no other background in cycling other being hired to look after Lance at the stage finish for his last two or three Tours.
 
Mar 13, 2009
16,854
1
0
Visit site
craig1985 said:
I read an interview with Serge, and it was Serge who suggested to Cadel that he get into a team car after each stage because he would get to the hotel 20 minutes before the bus would and so thus he could start his massage earlier (and get a longer one) and recovery a lot quicker. Cadel did not really want to do this, but he followed Serge's advice after he had gone from being Lance's bodyguard, and saw that if it worked for Lance, then it would for him as well.

Mind you Serge is a policeman by trade, and no other background in cycling other being hired to look after Lance at the stage finish for his last two or three Tours.
thanks for this.

Bloody stupid tho, Evans should have called rank. He should know when to and when to defer to expertise. I doubt 20 minutes would make any tangible difference with lactic acid setting in.

But building a team, and making them want to ride for you, that is most important. Armstrong had built his team by then. They would ride themselves into the ground. Evans needed to build esprit de corps, and Lotto become riven with factions, in his time there. Whether it was Gilbert signing and agreeing on a plan not to ride the Tour, or having whispers behind his back, or having a first year Tour rider go rogue when he was one of the riders that caused the TTT kerfuffle, or Coucke sniping from the cheap seats.

Did Cadel attain fluency in Flemish by the finish of his Lotto career? The small things are important.
 
May 6, 2009
8,522
1
0
Visit site
blackcat said:
thanks for this.

Bloody stupid tho, Evans should have called rank. He should know when to and when to defer to expertise. I doubt 20 minutes would make any tangible difference with lactic acid setting in.

But building a team, and making them want to ride for you, that is most important. Armstrong had built his team by then. They would ride themselves into the ground. Evans needed to build esprit de corps, and Lotto become riven with factions, in his time there. Whether it was Gilbert signing and agreeing on a plan not to ride the Tour, or having whispers behind his back, or having a first year Tour rider go rogue when he was one of the riders that caused the TTT kerfuffle, or Coucke sniping from the cheap seats.

Did Cadel attain fluency in Flemish by the finish of his Lotto career? The small things are important.

Cadel can speak fluent French, or at least he didn't have any problems speaking it in an interview after he won the 2006 Tour de Romandie. There is a youtube clip of him speaking in Italian (that is no surprise since he lives on the border of Italy and his wife is Italian etc.). The only thing I can think of is that Serge gave his 'advice' to the management and they went with it, but like I said, Serge is a cop, and no more. And I'm not sure Cadel is the sort of person to put his foot down and break ranks.
 
Mar 13, 2009
16,854
1
0
Visit site
craig1985 said:
Cadel can speak fluent French, or at least he didn't have any problems speaking it in an interview after he won the 2006 Tour de Romandie. There is a youtube clip of him speaking in Italian (that is no surprise since he lives on the border of Italy and his wife is Italian etc.). The only thing I can think of is that Serge gave his 'advice' to the management and they went with it, but like I said, Serge is a cop, and no more. And I'm not sure Cadel is the sort of person to put his foot down and break ranks.

not asking French. Evans was on a Flemish team, (cycling in Belgium is more Flemish than Wallonne). Get the ducks aligned. He had 5 years.
 
craig1985 said:
Isn't Flemish just a dialect of Dutch? I guess if you can learn Dutch, then you're laughing.

Flemish more or less equals Dutch; there is continuity between dialects of Dutch spoken in Flanders and the Netherlands. It ought to be relatively easy to learn for an English speaker, especially if like Cadel you've proven already to be a fairly skilled linguist speaking French and Italian fluently. I would find it hard to believe that he doesn't speak at least some Flemish, perhaps not enough to be confident doing a live interview.
 
Mar 19, 2009
257
0
0
Visit site
R.0.t.O said:
Flemish more or less equals Dutch; there is continuity between dialects of Dutch spoken in Flanders and the Netherlands. It ought to be relatively easy to learn for an English speaker, especially if like Cadel you've proven already to be a fairly skilled linguist speaking French and Italian fluently. I would find it hard to believe that he doesn't speak at least some Flemish, perhaps not enough to be confident doing a live interview.

Every pro cyclist knows some dutch words that are quite usefull in the peloton: "godverdomme", "klootzak", "smeerlap", ...
 
Mar 13, 2009
16,854
1
0
Visit site
think I recall Evans attacking in 2004 Lombardia. He was in the final 3 man selection, but I think Cunego and Noe got back on.

It was Basso, Cunego, Noe, Evans, and someone like Bartoli, Rebellin, Diluca or Casagrande.

So, if you count Lombardia and Liege as two of the most selective days racing on the UCI calendar, think Evans proved his chops in 2004 Lombardia and Liege 2005.

Did not win neither ofcourse.


blackcat said:
See Evans' history of attacks below the media analysis.

Is Susan Westemeyer correct with this piece in CN
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/silence-lotto-surprised-by-evans-transfer-to-bmc

Because I think Lovkvist was at IMG under Rominger (not 100% sure) and his contract allowed a release from FDJ if he was offered more money. Now, this may not be a pro forma contract, from IMG, if they are professional managers, all riders should have a unique contract. And the teams have to agree.

But one should question, why when a contract is only two years long, is there a clause that includes a buy-out equivalent to one season's salary. It does not make fundamental sense economically.

All contracts are breakable, on mutual agreement and negotiation anyhow.

But I am not buying Marc Couke's spin, or Marc Sergent, that Evans had to pay one years' salary for a release. Even if he did, it is fungible, it is BMC x3 years less the compensation. So Evans and BMC are paying a penalty, both of them. It ultimately comes out of Evans' pocket, because it is his market value, less his release.

I think in this case, Lotto are spinning it to make them look better. Frankly, they treated Evans at the Tour with lack of respect, and did not deserve him. However Evans must take responsibility, as he did not really build the esprit de corps and get the team to willingly ride for him, in the previous seasons since 2005.

Ok, lots are pretty ignorant about Evans. He has attacked many times before Dauphine 2009. It is just he never attacks in July at the Tour, because he is riding GC, and he does not have the legs. And everyone who knows cycling, appreciates that the medical program often determines who is strongest and attacking in the second and third weeks. Read into this what you will. But to dismiss his inability to attack, does not concede he has always ridden defensively for the highest classement position he could, and he cannot attack if he does not have the legs. And what is his tt second place to Vino in 2007. Is that a win? Does a chrono win count as a de facto attack? All ridden in the wind? When no one appeciates the strategy riding GC, versus "attacking" and then wanting someone to ride like Rasmussen or Vino on a copius amount of hormones, plus the other riders one will not name, because this is the inappropriate forum.

attacks (by memory)

2005 Liege, St Nicolas
quote:


2005 Tour (the only year besides 2009 when he was not a marked GC rider)
stage 16

2008 Fleche

2009 Dauphine
There have been many other instances, Tour of Germany, Tour of Austria.

You have to have the legs to attack at the Tour, and to ride away. Evans is the first to concede he has not had that strength to ride off the front. You would have to be a fool to attack and blow yourself up. And if you look at the history of the Tour, and the riders who have won the GTs in the past two decades, you get a picture, so you can put into context, how one can attack. Riders who were mediocre espoirs who should have never gotten pro contracts. Riders who struggled and were mediocre pros in NORBA mtb races in the US.

Marc Couke is just flat wrong, saying Evans was nobody when he came to Davitamon Lotto for 2005. He had worn the maglia rosa in the 2002 Giro d'Italia. He was the number one ranked mtb'er having won 2 annual World Cup titles, he won Austria and Brixia, climbing tours. He was on the podium of the world jnr chrono champs on the road, when he was basically a mtb'er.

Couke is a ruddy faced piece of Eurotrash who should stay at parties in Monaco and hoover up cocaine from the wealth he has made at Omega Pharma, and stay out of cycling. Guys like this, who will encourage behaviour and the downward spiral of a rider like Frank Vandenbroucke, should not be shown the respect with CN just quoting a press release verbatim without verifying the material.

Evans is not a sympatico character, but he has been dealt with pretty harshly by the non-Australian centric media, but the Australian centric media has been positively hagiographic from what I understand. Neither are correct.
 
Apr 20, 2009
13
0
0
Visit site
The media's and much of the cycling world's emotional reaction to Evans has been always been curious to me.
Such a personal distaste directed toward such an introverted person. I'd suggest such distaste is usually reserved for a loudmouth lacking substance to their performances.

I mention this because I believe an accurate, fair analysis of Cadel, his performances and his decisions is rendered almost impossible for many because of this strong perceptual bias. As an example of this bias (self-serving bias in this case), you may note the staunch Cadel haters on this forum are conspicuously absent from this thread.

What I'm saying is that irrespective of outcome of Cadel's decisions, performances etc, judgements of him will be strongly influenced by a largely illogical negative perceptual bias.
This thread has gone a long way in presenting evidence to help deconstruct those strongly held innaccurate beliefs about Cadel.

Equally, as a fan of Cadel I could be victim to the same perceptual biases. However, in the current age where almost everyone has equal and/or full information about an event or performance or decision, it is not difficult to examine the validity of criticisms.

I think the circumstance that have led to Cadel's career pathway are potentially highly complex and related to the age of sophisticated doping in cycling, sponsorship arrangements, nationalistic support, bad management, dumb bad luck (injuries), unwavering persistence, perfectionist personality (you know the side effect of this is high anxiety), and extreme introversion.

I recall watching him annihilate the competition in the Manchester Commonwealth Games TT. As he stood on the podium, with a large but pretty subdued crowd thinking "who's Cadel Evans?", I called out "YOU DA MAN CADEL!". Well he went bright red and was just so embarrasssed.....then had a little coy chuckle almost in acknowledgement that perhaps he did deserve a cheer after all. The humility was admirable.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
movingtarget said:
Obviously the big win is getting away from Lotto management who seem clueless about most things. Too bad he could not have taken Lloyd with him. Gilbert will also be disappointed because he and Evan's seemed to be developing an understanding in the classics. Hopefully now Evans can concentrate on what he does best ; racing.

i feel sorry for charlie.. he was taken there to support cadel in the mountains.. now he is stuck there without a leader.. i would love to see wegelius escape to sky...

charlies actually been very quiet in twitter land.. not even mentioned cadel going..
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
dimspace said:
i feel sorry for charlie.. he was taken there to support cadel in the mountains.. now he is stuck there without a leader.. i would love to see wegelius escape to sky...

charlies actually been very quiet in twitter land.. not even mentioned cadel going..

Me too.. actually I felt sorry for Charlie when he was originally left off the tour team by SL management

Maybe he can negotiate a way out, either to Sky or BMC as i'm sure he'd be happy to leave and i'm not sure what SL have to gain from having him there unless they really believe in VDB or think they can sign a replacement GC rider for Cadel
 

flicker

BANNED
Aug 17, 2009
4,153
0
0
Visit site
I think he can

No reason Cadel can not win the tour next year. Old Phonak can fix him up.
Just has to quit whinning and turn up the heat Cadel. Go and punish the competition in the hard classics. Tricks and treachery on top of pure determination cannot lose.

When you get to Cadels level its all in the head team or no team.
The rare talent he has in the mountains among the giddy rarrified competition that Cadel has shown, the dedication now he only needs the focus and the confidence in himself to do it.

He must gain the peletons respect and then intimidate with his power.
 
Mar 13, 2009
16,854
1
0
Visit site
kickingfred said:
The media's and much of the cycling world's emotional reaction to Evans has been always been curious to me.
Such a personal distaste directed toward such an introverted person. I'd suggest such distaste is usually reserved for a loudmouth lacking substance to their performances.

I mention this because I believe an accurate, fair analysis of Cadel, his performances and his decisions is rendered almost impossible for many because of this strong perceptual bias. As an example of this bias (self-serving bias in this case), you may note the staunch Cadel haters on this forum are conspicuously absent from this thread.

What I'm saying is that irrespective of outcome of Cadel's decisions, performances etc, judgements of him will be strongly influenced by a largely illogical negative perceptual bias.
This thread has gone a long way in presenting evidence to help deconstruct those strongly held innaccurate beliefs about Cadel.

Equally, as a fan of Cadel I could be victim to the same perceptual biases. However, in the current age where almost everyone has equal and/or full information about an event or performance or decision, it is not difficult to examine the validity of criticisms.

I think the circumstance that have led to Cadel's career pathway are potentially highly complex and related to the age of sophisticated doping in cycling, sponsorship arrangements, nationalistic support, bad management, dumb bad luck (injuries), unwavering persistence, perfectionist personality (you know the side effect of this is high anxiety), and extreme introversion.

I recall watching him annihilate the competition in the Manchester Commonwealth Games TT. As he stood on the podium, with a large but pretty subdued crowd thinking "who's Cadel Evans?", I called out "YOU DA MAN CADEL!". Well he went bright red and was just so embarrasssed.....then had a little coy chuckle almost in acknowledgement that perhaps he did deserve a cheer after all. The humility was admirable.
Evans does have to own alot of the negative perception. Yes, the current media age which has rendered most journalism, even the broadsheet and paper of record model, to PR release and official mouthpiece. One cannot challenge orthodoxy. But Evans has been a naif, and not understood his industry, which carries through to on-the-bike relations and politics. If Armstrong was one thing, he was a brilliant Patron.

The 21st century media industry was/is perfect opportunity for Armstrong and his management to manipulate the narrative and control the message. Even if fans had some critical analysis, they could see even in the 140 character tweets, Armstrong reveals enough about his psychopathic personality. The Contador fiasco, the bullying. And to see a cynical manipulation with "going to pick up the kids from school" tweets. Armstrong puts the "twit" in twitter. His "I think the 43 starting line crit is a very compelling number" is the most stupid comment he has made in light on his 49 crit starting number in 99.

Evans has been indulged because of his talent on the bike. Perhaps if he was not indulged, his public perception could have been mollified, and if he did not have such manifest talent.

In the 2002 World chrono champs, Rogers time to the winner Santiago Botero, was a smaller difference per km (function for measuring tt disparity) than with Evans in Manchester. Botero put in 1.5 seconds per km into Rogers. Evans put in more time into Rogers than that.
 
Apr 20, 2009
13
0
0
Visit site
blackcat said:
Evans does have to own alot of the negative perception. Yes, the current media age which has rendered most journalism, even the broadsheet and paper of record model, to PR release and official mouthpiece. One cannot challenge orthodoxy. But Evans has been a naif, and not understood his industry, which carries through to on-the-bike relations and politics. If Armstrong was one thing, he was a brilliant Patron.

The 21st century media industry was/is perfect opportunity for Armstrong and his management to manipulate the narrative and control the message. Even if fans had some critical analysis, they could see even in the 140 character tweets, Armstrong reveals enough about his psychopathic personality. The Contador fiasco, the bullying. And to see a cynical manipulation with "going to pick up the kids from school" tweets. Armstrong puts the "twit" in twitter. His "I think the 43 starting line crit is a very compelling number" is the most stupid comment he has made in light on his 49 crit starting number in 99.

Evans has been indulged because of his talent on the bike. Perhaps if he was not indulged, his public perception could have been mollified, and if he did not have such manifest talent.

In the 2002 World chrono champs, Rogers time to the winner Santiago Botero, was a smaller difference per km (function for measuring tt disparity) than with Evans in Manchester. Botero put in 1.5 seconds per km into Rogers. Evans put in more time into Rogers than that.

I'll get back on topic in a moment.....but Armstrong a brilliant patron? Well your second para provides plenty of evidence to the contrary for just a start. Superstar athlete? Sure. Strategic Understanding of the mechanisms of media and marketing? Maybe. Or maybe a histrionic personality? I think brilliant patron is arguable.

My point wasn't about whether Cadel is to personally blame for the negative perception, the point was that
1. The negative perception that does exist does not seem to have developed based on a balanced weigh up of factors. For instance, I think there is plenty of evidence that Armstrong and Bettini whined as much, probably more, than Evans in the absence of being labelled as such. Evans is not judged in the same way.
2. Related and perpetuating point 1 is that such negative sentiment precludes wholesale positive acknowledgement of his achievements regardless of what they are. Just have a look at the worlds thread where a high percentage of praise comments were backhanders.

And it's not that I think people's fundamental dislike of Cadel is invalid. Just that an objective weigh up of performance and appearance factors doesn't seem to explain the strength of the dislike. Like what is it about him that produces such a response? I won't accept whining......cause there are far greater whiners who aren't known as such. I won't accept "not attacking" cause that is inaccurate and demonstrates a misunderstanding of racing. I won't accept "no personality", cause basso is as dull as dishwater and an introvert but seems quite well liked as a personality. So what is it?
 
Mar 13, 2009
16,854
1
0
Visit site
Patron at the Tour. There are often multiple definitions of patron. I should not have allowed for ambiguity and defined the term.

Patron. I mean a Hinault type, Napoleonic complex, rule with the iron fist, determine breakaways, tell Simeoni he is not going into the move, to intimidate rivals. To exchange stage wins with Basso, to swap the best oncologist offer for his mother in exchange for less attacking.

Brilliant in this perspective. One can be brilliantly infamous. This is a brilliant negative. A brilliant malignancy. Armstrong was a brilliant patron at the Tour.
 
Mar 13, 2009
16,854
1
0
Visit site
kickingfred said:
I'll get back on topic in a moment.....but Armstrong a brilliant patron? Well your second para provides plenty of evidence to the contrary for just a start. Superstar athlete? Sure. Strategic Understanding of the mechanisms of media and marketing? Maybe. Or maybe a histrionic personality? I think brilliant patron is arguable.

My point wasn't about whether Cadel is to personally blame for the negative perception, the point was that
1. The negative perception that does exist does not seem to have developed based on a balanced weigh up of factors. For instance, I think there is plenty of evidence that Armstrong and Bettini whined as much, probably more, than Evans in the absence of being labelled as such. Evans is not judged in the same way.
2. Related and perpetuating point 1 is that such negative sentiment precludes wholesale positive acknowledgement of his achievements regardless of what they are. Just have a look at the worlds thread where a high percentage of praise comments were backhanders.

And it's not that I think people's fundamental dislike of Cadel is invalid. Just that an objective weigh up of performance and appearance factors doesn't seem to explain the strength of the dislike. Like what is it about him that produces such a response? I won't accept whining......cause there are far greater whiners who aren't known as such. I won't accept "not attacking" cause that is inaccurate and demonstrates a misunderstanding of racing. I won't accept "no personality", cause basso is as dull as dishwater and an introvert but seems quite well liked as a personality. So what is it?
Levi is colloquially known as "The Snivler" (ie a whiner) but this narrative never seems to hit the press, and is run with.

The public and the media will put up with this aspect of a personality, if they can celebrate the wins.

Regarding Armstrong's personality? I just do not see any charisma there. I see Armstrong as an utterly non simpatico individual, pathological, who has won. And the wins confer on him Hollywood patronage, a narrative, and some "personality" and some nebulous "charisma" that I do not see. But he was a great patron of the peloton. See how he has all these riders in his hand.

See how riders follow him to twitter, see how they wear yellow bands. See how they have a yellow band on their twitter profile. See how Cav reacts on Livestrong video. they are putty. Most riders are sheep with no individuality.

Atleast Evans is basically his own man, and not anyones subject. This actually, has got him into more trouble, and created more problems for him.
 
Jul 28, 2009
898
0
0
Visit site
blackcat said:
Atleast Evans is basically his own man, and not anyones subject. This actually, has got him into more trouble, and created more problems for him.
Yes, Evans has thumbed his nose at LA at least once and elevated himself in my estimation by doing so. This contrasts with Bassos abject obsequiousness which was quite gag inducing. Saxo/CSC were well shot of Basso, with the Schlecks they have superior talents who seem quite likeable and not overawed by puffed up blowfish.
 

TRENDING THREADS