Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[ontheroad]

I am a (retired) student of discourse and longtime racer and fan, so here's my take on Rogla and the DNS.

There are two competing positions circulating now. 1/ He selfishly took himself out of a race he could have completed, abandoning Jonas in yellow, to focus on his next objective. 2/ He rode himself through days of enormous pain and suffering, thereby contributing greatly to Jonas's prospects for yellow in Paris, but finally reached a breaking point.

In the absence of medical reports, insider info, performance data, etc, which one you choose reflects your prior feelings about Rogla, JV, the sanctity of the TdF and its 'warrior' culture, and so on.

As a longtime fan of Rogla, I choose Number 2. But to be honest, I must admit I don't really know. Neither does the "loser" school of Philippa, Hincapie, Mikel Bjerg (lecturing a Grand Tour champ, really?), and the rest of that ilk.

What did Mikel Bjerg have to say about it?

 

[Red Rick]

"Remember Roglic used to be a ski jumper. He quit one sport he'll soon quit another"

 

[RedheadDane]

What did Mikel Bjerg have to say about it?

That it seemed Jumbo thought they'd won already.

P.S. He's name's Mikkel, with two Ks. He's Danish, not Spanish; stop trying to steal our riders!

 

[bNator]

As Slovenian i would like it more if Pogi wins. But if Jonas can win then i won't lose sleep over it. It should be mano-a-mano and let the best one win. As this is modern cycling a lion share was already done on stage 11 by the lion. If now Pogi can undone that. Then for sure he is the rightful owner of the title. A legend. If JV does something to self inflict their defeat. Then next year you all work for Roglič.

You're a tough nut to crack. I was in the same boat as you. After Tour 2020 I couldn't help but root for Pogi to fail though I did feel bad for feeling this way about a compatriot. I will never forget how happy I was on Strade Bianche 2021 when he was dropped on that little molehill before they started the descent.

Being the victim (of TJV tricks as much as his own ego) certainly helps gaining some sympathy but apart from that - I do not want TJV to be rewarded for their approach and lack of focus. They are going to look like geniuses if they win this Tour, for Christ sake!

But to return to Primož... I firmly believe he knew 100% he had zero chance at winning this Tour after stage 5. He could have quit then and there but instead, he bluffed his way through the next couple of stages to make Pogi believe he is still a threat and then used this false perception to great effect. In this respect, that really was a flash of a genius from TJV. I do not for a single second believe he had hoped at the bottom of Galibier he was going to take any time back. This is of course just my belief and I cannot prove it in any way. Maybe I have more in common with @Tinnekeisabella than I thought

 

[KZD]

Everyone has an opinion:

Philippa York analysis: Roglic's bizarre abandon could cost Jumbo dearly | Cyclingnews

A pretty nasty piece tbh, i.e. pretty much saying "Roglic is to blame if Vingegaard loses this TdF".

She doesn't even know the extent of Roglic's injuries or who decided to pull the plug yet decides to write this kind of text anyway, very disappointing.

 

[Extinction]

I am a (retired) student of discourse and longtime racer and fan, so here's my take on Rogla and the DNS.

There are two competing positions circulating now. 1/ He selfishly took himself out of a race he could have completed, abandoning Jonas in yellow, to focus on his next objective. 2/ He rode himself through days of enormous pain and suffering, thereby contributing greatly to Jonas's prospects for yellow in Paris, but finally reached a breaking point.

In the absence of medical reports, insider info, performance data, etc, which one you choose reflects your prior feelings about Rogla, JV, the sanctity of the TdF and its 'warrior' culture, and so on.

As a longtime fan of Rogla, I choose Number 2. But to be honest, I must admit I don't really know. Neither does the "loser" school of Philippa, Hincapie, Mikel Bjerg (lecturing a Grand Tour champ, really?), and the rest of that ilk.

Yea, but you have to consider that once their was no Vuelta after the Tour and hence for the riders and sponsors it was shameful, unless the rider simply could not continue, that he pull out. A rider must finish or die trying the Grand Bouclé. It's as simple as that. The calendar has changed, for the worse if you ask me, idem the teams approach.

 

[bNator]

She doesn't even know the extent of Roglic's injuries or who decided to pull the plug yet decides to write this kind of text anyway, very disappointing.

Yes - it's just her made-up theory, supported by virtually nothing. It a fairy tale, basically...

 

[Extinction]

It's funny to read & hear comments from various people (professionals, journalists or just fans) who deify the Tour de France & elevate the race to a Godly status which demands blood, sweat, tears & sacrifice (even career sacrifice because why not eh), or else a rider will be condemned as a selfish quitter for eternity (something like that).

Meanwhile back on planet earth a week after the TdF people look back & think "was that worth getting so excited about?" & move on immediately to the next race. And then the next race & so on. It's the heat of July, i.e. it gives people TdF fever & makes them crazy. If the Roglic TdF retirement happened exactly as Jumbo said it did, then the cold harsh truth of team economics says as a serial winner for Jumbo Visma, Roglic must be protected for the good of the sponsors & team. I think that call should have been made even sooner (which is what Merijn Zeeman hinted at in an interview today). Let's hope Roglic hasn't suffered long term issues for the rest of the season.

If Lance & Hincapie demand sacrifice at the altar of the TdF, they're free to ride the parcours at any time as cyclotouristes & croak somewhere on the roads of France in a scorching summer furnace as a tribute to their deity. L.A. could even ride around in one of his yellow jerseys as well, i.e. it's totally legal.

Sure, but in 10 years nobody will remember Roglic's 4th Vuelta win, except in relation to Vingegaard losing the Tour.

 

[Rackham]

Sure, but in 10 years nobody will remember Roglic's 4th Vuelta win, except in relation to Vingegaard losing the Tour.

It's been my hope now for a few years that the advent of social media & complete coverage of all races which are easily accessible via Eurosport or GCN will increase the exposure & reach of GT's like the Vuelta, i.e. whereas a lot of the time in the old days people didn't always have access to all the races - except the TdF of course which dominated the conversation & cycling landscape.

Froome can be used as an example of this, i.e. what do people remember more? Finestre 2018 Giro or one of his Tour wins? I'd argue it's the former, actually.

Roglic will be remembered for the sum total of his entire career oeuvre, not just the TdF. This is something the Lance generation might not understand (& even accept, at all).

 

[Bonimenier]

Flabbergasted how many people here defend this selfish act.

 

[bNator]

Sure, but in 10 years nobody will remember Roglic's 4th Vuelta win, except in relation to Vingegaard losing the Tour.

As if Roglic can win the Tour for him. His greatest asset when domming was used to the fullest extent. Now all he could do is set some tempo (not a very good one considering his poor performance on the last couple of stages) which would turn out to be utterly useless once Pogi kicks in. Setting a tempo works when trying to keep multiple weaker riders at bay. Not with Pogi

 

[Jumbo Visma Fan :)]

Flabbergasted how many people here defend this selfish act.

How is this selfish. Clearly the guy is injured, and he is making sure that this injury isn’t permanent.

 

[bNator]

How is this selfish. Clearly the guy is injured, and he is making sure that this injury isn’t permanent.

He is thinking of himSELF instead of the team. Ergo: selfish

We are lucky none of us on this forum follow this principle and only have interests and well-being of others in mind

 

[RedheadDane]

Flabbergasted how many people here defend this selfish act.

The selfish act of having to be told to leave?

 

[Jumbo Visma Fan :)]

He is thinking of himSELF instead of the team. Ergo: selfish

We are lucky none of us on this forum follow this principle and only have interests and well-being of others in mind

There’s also a difference, as likely the team would want him to be healthy for the Vuelta. Not just himself.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

That it seemed Jumbo thought they'd won already.

P.S. He's name's Mikkel, with two Ks. He's Danish, not Spanish; stop trying to steal our riders!

But according to Thomas Bay, Landa is also named Mikkel.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

It's pretty simple. If Roglic was not in pain, or endangering his health by staying in the Tour, then he should have stayed in the tour. If he was in pain or sick or risking making his injuries worse etc, then he had every right to get out of the Tour.

Totally agree with this tech. And everything we have seen and heard indicates that he was in pain and possibly making his injuries worse.

Well they kept him in the race for a week after, so it has nothing to do with his injuries, otherwise they would have pulled him out immediately.

This conclusion does not follow from the evidence they cited. They had immense incentives to keep him in the race despite his injuries. Pulling him now doesn't mean it has nothing to do with his injuries. I imagine it was a calculation. Maybe even literally a literal actuarial calculation, though that isn't likely.
[Expected rewards of winning the Tour] x [Incremental probability of winning with Roglic still in the Tour] vs. [Expected rewards of winning the Vuelta] x [Probability of winning the Vuelta if Roglic drops now] + [Expected value of all of Roglic's palmares] x [Probability Roglic is unhindered by riding through injuries in a brutal Tour]
If the latter is higher than the former, they should have sent him home.

To the bolded, I'm perplexed his injuries were so bad that initially he was capable of stellar support on the Galibier (both times), but suddenly is worse off for it.

Do you not seen how the one could follow the other? Do you think if you took a hard fall and then went all out on a brutal stage, with attack after attack, you would feel better or worse the next day?

I dont understand what you are perplexed about. If you are riding with an injury, you are sure to make it worse.

This.

He probably will prove me wrong anyway but for some reason I think he is not going to win the Vuelta this year.

I would be very surprised if he wins the Vuelta. On the other hand, Contador and Froome were pretty good in 2014. The fitness should be there, even if his injuries prevent him from utilizing it now.

He was sacrificing himself, WHILE being hurt. I think you are forgetting that Roglic is one the best riders in the peloton. He probably just pushed on, while being in pain and that will be on the team if Roglic will suffer longterm from these efforts.

They used him to trick Pogacar. It worked, but at what cost? We will find out in the coming months of what is left of the season.

Yeah.

 

[VeloMaster]

What did Mikel Bjerg have to say about it?

He said, from memory, something to the effect that it was "strange" and arrogant b/c it meant JV was already claiming victory already. Does that come from UAE or Pog? More likely just the opinion of a callow youth who has so far not lived up to expectations.

 

[tobydawq]

That it seemed Jumbo thought they'd won already.

P.S. He's name's Mikkel, with two Ks. He's Danish, not Spanish; stop trying to steal our riders!

At least he didn't call him Mikel Montaña.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

That it seemed Jumbo thought they'd won already.

P.S. He's name's Mikkel, with two Ks. He's Danish, not Spanish; stop trying to steal our riders!

Congrats. You just successfully blew your chance to pretend Bjerg isn't Danish.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Of course most people don't refer to Froome's finestre-raid, I'd argue many casual fans dont even have a clue what Finestre is or what Froome did. The hardcore cycling fans know, and most appreciate it, but it still pales in comparisons to 4 Tour-titles. Thats what it mostly comes down to if youre a GC-rider, especially being an english speaking athlete.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

"Remember Roglic used to be a ski jumper. He quit one sport he'll soon quit another"

Yup, Primoz is a genius excelling in everything. He should try cross-country skiing to get an elusive Winter Olympics gold - it should be doable with his big engine and no Pogi or Vigne mutants in sight. In his old days snooker will be his choice - Ronnie will be too old to stop him then.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Yup, Primoz is a genius excelling in everything. He should try cross-country skiing to get an elusive Winter Olympics gold - it should be doable with his big engine and no Pogi or Vigne mutants in sight. In his old days snooker will be his choice - Ronnie will be too old to stop him then.

I'm not sure how good he would be at snooker, but at least he wouldn't be confused by the blue ball like Vingegaard. JV would probably also think that the yellow and the white balls need to be touching each other for most of the game.

 

[Extinction]

It's been my hope now for a few years that the advent of social media & complete coverage of all races which are easily accessible via Eurosport or GCN will increase the exposure & reach of GT's like the Vuelta, i.e. whereas a lot of the time in the old days people didn't always have access to all the races - except the TdF of course which dominated the conversation & cycling landscape.

Froome can be used as an example of this, i.e. what do people remember more? Finestre 2018 Giro or one of his Tour wins? I'd argue it's the former, actually.

Roglic will be remembered for the sum total of his entire career oeuvre, not just the TdF. This is something the Lance generation might not understand (& even accept, at all).

And you are right, however, cycling also has its history that should be respected. I know in this day and age such sentiments are passe, but so be it.

 

[RedheadDane]

Congrats. You just successfully blew your chance to pretend Bjerg isn't Danish.

I don't want to pretend he isn't Danish. Sure, his comment about Roglic was a bit strange, but that's hardly a reason to undanify him.
You think I'm the kind of person, who goes around taking people's citizenships?