Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

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People arguing here without even knowing the facts.

Roglič crashed, dislocated his shoulder and hurt is back bad. The back became the main problem here.

He wasn't getting better but JV used him as a decoy for Pogačar, because Pog still though Roglič is as dangerous as Vinge. JV knew he wasn't, he was done already but good for bursts of power which they used to perfection. Vinge gets the yellow.

Each stage later Roglič gets worse. His back is failing him and he can't keep with peloton any more. Heat and crazy attacking tactic of JV doesn't help eather. He was hiding to his bosses how bad it is, because he wanted to be be there.

Stage 15 JV boss comes and says they sent him home despite Roglič wasn't happy about that and wanted to continue.

And now I read all the made up crap about his bad attitude, being bad team mate, etc.
Bunch of danish cry babies who make things up to assert their failed narrative.
 
Did not read too much comments before, maybe repetition...but imho this may be the beginning of big egos clashing. Three maybe too much for this team to handle? I think Brailsford has good or better history w/ handling big group of superheroes but not even he didn't have a case like this. Two gc captains are ok, but add one super alpha male WVA and it may start to come tumbling down somewhere.. Dunno if Dumoulin was already kinda sore because of this? Is it classic case of too much chiefs and too little indians?

Or too strong indians? :cool:
 
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I don't want to pretend he isn't Danish. Sure, his comment about Roglic was a bit strange, but that's hardly a reason to undanify him.
You think I'm the kind of person, who goes around taking people's citizenships?
I was not talking about him ''dissing'' Roglic. And you don't don't have to revoke his citizenship, but you can just pretend you don't know he's Danish. Of course NOW everybody knows.
 
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And now I read all the made up crap about his bad attitude, being bad team mate, etc.
Bunch of danish cry babies who make things up to assert their failed narrative.
It hasn't just been Danes with the critique. Last time I checked, York was Scottish.
I agree it's a stupid critique, especially because it goes against the - also quite popular in Danish media - narrative of Roglic and Vingegaard being quite good friends, with Roglic being one of the first to declare Vingegaard a potential future Tour winner.

I was not talking about him ''dissing'' Roglic. And you don't don't have to revoke his citizenship, but you can just pretend you don't know he's Danish. Of course NOW everybody knows.
I don't want to pretend I don't know he's Danish.
 

acm

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It's been my hope now for a few years that the advent of social media & complete coverage of all races which are easily accessible via Eurosport or GCN will increase the exposure & reach of GT's like the Vuelta, i.e. whereas a lot of the time in the old days people didn't always have access to all the races - except the TdF of course which dominated the conversation & cycling landscape.

Froome can be used as an example of this, i.e. what do people remember more? Finestre 2018 Giro or one of his Tour wins? I'd argue it's the former, actually.

Roglic will be remembered for the sum total of his entire career oeuvre, not just the TdF. This is something the Lance generation might not understand (& even accept, at all).
Roglic will be remembered for his personality. Fighter, gentleman and really nice person. It doesn't matter if he wins TdF or not.
 
Totally agree with this tech. And everything we have seen and heard indicates that he was in pain and possibly making his injuries worse.

This conclusion does not follow from the evidence they cited. They had immense incentives to keep him in the race despite his injuries. Pulling him now doesn't mean it has nothing to do with his injuries. I imagine it was a calculation. Maybe even literally a literal actuarial calculation, though that isn't likely.
[Expected rewards of winning the Tour] x [Incremental probability of winning with Roglic still in the Tour] vs. [Expected rewards of winning the Vuelta] x [Probability of winning the Vuelta if Roglic drops now] + [Expected value of all of Roglic's palmares] x [Probability Roglic is unhindered by riding through injuries in a brutal Tour]
If the latter is higher than the former, they should have sent him home.
Do you not seen how the one could follow the other? Do you think if you took a hard fall and then went all out on a brutal stage, with attack after attack, you would feel better or worse the next day?
This.
I would be very surprised if he wins the Vuelta. On the other hand, Contador and Froome were pretty good in 2014. The fitness should be there, even if his injuries prevent him from utilizing it now.

Yeah.
And I like these discussions, because, after all we are mere spectators, however, in my little world I died thrice to follow Di Luca in an Apennine Granfondo to finish 15th on Blockhaus, so I would have coughed up my soul to finish the Tour. But I fully realize for Primoz and his team there are other considerations, whether or not I agree with them.
 
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acm

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You're all forgetting one thing. Roglic was dropped on the first climb on stage 13 and 14. Teammates had to drop back and bring him back to the front. So that's extra work they had to do instead of just taking care of their yellow jersey. His injuries got worse and that's the reason team decided he should abandon. Everyone benefits from it (I mean it in a good way).
 
I do not want TJV to be rewarded for their approach and lack of focus. They are going to look like geniuses if they win this Tour, for Christ sake!
And in that case we will line up and congratulate them for it. As it's appropriate. Cycling is rotten to the core and the biggest *** usually wins the Tour. Not much we can do about that. That is on why i feel that this race got decided on stage 11. And not much anybody can do about it. Maybe JV.

But to return to Primož... I firmly believe he knew 100% he had zero chance at winning this Tour after stage 5. He could have quit then and there but instead, he bluffed his way through the next couple of stages to make Pogi believe he is still a threat and then used this false perception to great effect. In this respect, that really was a flash of a genius from TJV. I do not for a single second believe he had hoped at the bottom of Galibier he was going to take any time back. This is of course just my belief and I cannot prove it in any way. Maybe I have more in common with @Tinnekeisabella than I thought :)
Yeah. It was not some masterpiece tactics. It was Rogla who stamped authority on this race. And made the sacrifice. And they actually went and asked him. If they can throw him under the bus. I will give them that.

P.S. On Netflix likely the idea will be Jonas single-handedly beaten Pogačar by an all in attack lasting 250km on stage 11. And on top of that he had to drop his selfish teammate who was pulling for Pogi. On the other hand and if Pogi wins. Imagine his surprise. When he will sit down after a job well done. Drinking a juice as he is too young for drinking beer. Anyway. To realize Netflix show is about Primož and Jonas.
 
Many Danish fans are absolutely atrocious to listen to. Its basically like reading the most extremist Roglic-fans on this forum throwing daily tirades about how selfish Wout is - only now the turn has come to Primoz from the angry mob. The Wout skepticism/critique has even picked up by the commentators, seemingly monitoring his every move and whenever hes not riding Jonas' race, it gets pointed out (forgetting stage 5, stage 11, stage 12 and stage 14).

Why can we just not enjoy great athletes and a great spectacle? Blows my mind some people can be so chauvinistic and so disingenuous when it comes to their favourite riders/national riders. Thankfully the Danes are not overly chauvinistic by any means on this forum (thank god broccolidwarf is long gone, that guy needed to get instantly banned), which is understandable since we actually know the sport and don't just pick up on the TdF/Vingegaard-hype and have become tactic-professors overnight.
 
Many Danish fans are absolutely atrocious to listen to. Its basically like reading the most extremist Roglic-fans on this forum throwing daily tirades about how selfish Wout is - only now the turn has come to Primoz from the angry mob. The Wout skepticism/critique has even picked up by the commentators, seemingly monitoring his every move and whenever hes not riding Jonas' race, it gets pointed out (forgetting stage 5, stage 11, stage 12 and stage 14).

Why can we just not enjoy great athletes and a great spectacle? Blows my mind some people can be so chauvinistic and so disingenuous when it comes to their favourite riders/national riders. Thankfully the Danes are not overly chauvinistic by any means on this forum (thank god broccolidwarf is long gone, that guy needed to get instantly banned), which is understandable since we actually know the sport and don't just pick up on the TdF/Vingegaard-hype and have become tactic-professors overnight.
You should give the Veloropa podcast a listen (the episode from the second rest day, the 11th of July). I think Plesner makes a much better case for his POV in that episode which wasn't at all as extremist as it looked like on Twitter. They spend the first ten minutes making their reasoning, and I really do think they have a point (that point is not that there is no room for two GC captains by the way, nor that Van Aert shouldn't be allowed to take his own chances sometimes) and you can disagree with them but it would be hard to call them clueless which you have done a few times (again, I must stress that I also didn't think they made much sense on Twitter but on the podcast they are more nuanced than that) without looking like a pure Van Aert fanboy.

Regarding Roglic, I think he continued in the race longer than he should have, probably. He looked very downbeat in the few interviews he gave in his final days and it seems ridiculous to claim that he could just have ridden a day more and then assessed his feelings on the rest day. I'm quite sure he did take that "just one more day" very many times.
 
Did not read too much comments before, maybe repetition...but imho this may be the beginning of big egos clashing. Three maybe too much for this team to handle? I think Brailsford has good or better history w/ handling big group of superheroes but not even he didn't have a case like this. Two gc captains are ok, but add one super alpha male WVA and it may start to come tumbling down somewhere.. Dunno if Dumoulin was already kinda sore because of this? Is it classic case of too much chiefs and too little indians?

Or too strong indians? :cool:
I don’t think this has anything to do with why Roglic DNS, but I do think it’s true. Wout, Vingo, Roglic, and a healthy Dumoulin all deserve dedicated top teams. I think Dumoulins marginalization had to play a role in what has happened there. Wout is definitely a top 2-3 rider in the world with likely the most “alpha” mentality in the peloton. Roglic is a top 3 all around rider IMO and, while more low key, rightfully wants his opportunities. And so on. I’m jot sure the team can keep them all happy. Setting aside palmares, I would take Wout, Vingo, and Roglic over any rider aside from Pogacar, who I would still take #1, if I was a DS. Then you throw in Dumoulin who is retiring but ok a sad, disappointing way, and Rohan Dennis and “the center cannot hold.”
And I like these discussions, because, after all we are mere spectators, however, in my little world I died thrice to follow Di Luca in an Apennine Granfondo to finish 15th on Blokhaus, so I would have coughed up my soul to finish the Tour. But I fully realize for Primoz and his team there are other considerations, whether or not I agree with them.
I’m not an athlete on your level (never been competitive for much as an adult) so maybe I am less able to relate. I have, however, worked, run, and biked myself into the ground, run a Boston Qualifier with Covid, biked Haleakala (though 1.5 hours behind the KOM lol), so I’m not totally unable to relate here. I’ve also run through injuries before and ended up having to take months off because sometimes you can’t just will yourself through. But my initial point before I started puffing myself up was that I have not been a real competitor and I don’t know what it’s like to have real stakes at hand and face that decision. But I also obviously enjoy these debates, too :D. We’re all just speculating here about a sport that’s done for entertainment.
 
And you are right, however, cycling also has its history that should be respected. I know in this day and age such sentiments are passe, but so be it.
I get that, however there are times when it's questionable whether the Tour itself respects its past (a can of worms in & of itself).

In the end it's just another Grand Tour & as a spectator, I do enjoy the recent trend of the top riders performing well in other races during the year. For cycling fans we have a better time this way instead of waiting for the best GT riders to perform at the TdF (with their 'peak form'....) & then it's curtains for another year.

Of course most people don't refer to Froome's finestre-raid, I'd argue many casual fans dont even have a clue what Finestre is or what Froome did. The hardcore cycling fans know, and most appreciate it, but it still pales in comparisons to 4 Tour-titles. Thats what it mostly comes down to if youre a GC-rider, especially being an english speaking athlete.
Cycling fans are all that matters. Casuals can go & watch Netflix instead.

For example how many 'casuals' who all knew about Lance Armstrong really only knew about him because of his cancer survivor story on top of his heavily mediatized sport successes in the Tour? Mention Carlos Sastre, Oscar Pereiro or Bradley Wiggins & you'll get a blank stare.

The route towards fame is not linear & winning the Tour doesn't guarantee anything. I mean arguably someone like Floyd Landis is more famous because of 'how' he won the Tour (in his veins, literally), but no one wants to be that guy, i.e. whoever said 'there's no such thing as bad publicity' was clearly lying.
 
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If injury wouldn't prevent him to continue i am sure that Rogla would not abandon this race. It was becoming painfully obvious with each new stage. It was only getting worse. A guy that stomps on MTFs getting dropped on flat sections. People blaming him for it are in my opinion clueless.
I guess that makes Philippa York, once Robert Millar, clueless then. I think you are deceived. Roglic did not pull out because his injuries risked getting worse. That's bs. He pulled out to rest up and then prepare for the Vuelta.

Rather than soldiering on, getting dropped and finishing anonymously, as riders of less stature would have been forced by their teams to do (injuries or no injuries), TJV consented to a planned exit. Now each has a right to agree with the decision or frown upon it as disrespecting the Tour, but especially in the latter case it does not mean they are clueless.

In hindsight, moreover, with loosing Kreuswik too, not having Primoz still in to make whatever contribution he is able could now cost TJV and Vingegaard dearly.
 

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