Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Extinction]

If injury wouldn't prevent him to continue i am sure that Rogla would not abandon this race. It was becoming painfully obvious with each new stage. It was only getting worse. A guy that stomps on MTFs getting dropped on flat sections. People blaming him for it are in my opinion clueless.

I guess that makes Philippa York, once Robert Millar, clueless then. I think you are deceived. Roglic did not pull out because his injuries risked getting worse. That's bs. He pulled out to rest up and then prepare for the Vuelta.

Rather than soldiering on, getting dropped and finishing anonymously, as riders of less stature would have been forced by their teams to do (injuries or no injuries), TJV consented to a planned exit. Now each has a right to agree with the decision or frown upon it as disrespecting the Tour, but especially in the latter case it does not mean they are clueless.

In hindsight, moreover, with loosing Kreuswik too, not having Primoz still in to make whatever contribution he is able could now cost TJV and Vingegaard dearly.

 

[Extinction]

I don’t think this has anything to do with why Roglic DNS, but I do think it’s true. Wout, Vingo, Roglic, and a healthy Dumoulin all deserve dedicated top teams. I think Dumoulins marginalization had to play a role in what has happened there. Wout is definitely a top 2-3 rider in the world with likely the most “alpha” mentality in the peloton. Roglic is a top 3 all around rider IMO and, while more low key, rightfully wants his opportunities. And so on. I’m jot sure the team can keep them all happy. Setting aside palmares, I would take Wout, Vingo, and Roglic over any rider aside from Pogacar, who I would still take #1, if I was a DS. Then you throw in Dumoulin who is retiring but ok a sad, disappointing way, and Rohan Dennis and “the center cannot hold.”

I’m not an athlete on your level (never been competitive for much as an adult) so maybe I am less able to relate. I have, however, worked, run, and biked myself into the ground, run a Boston Qualifier with Covid, biked Haleakala (though 1.5 hours behind the KOM lol), so I’m not totally unable to relate here. I’ve also run through injuries before and ended up having to take months off because sometimes you can’t just will yourself through. But my initial point before I started puffing myself up was that I have not been a real competitor and I don’t know what it’s like to have real stakes at hand and face that decision. But I also obviously enjoy these debates, too . We’re all just speculating here about a sport that’s done for entertainment.

My point I guess was not having been good enough to reach the top level, but good enough to occasionally race valiantly with those that have (the classic so close, yet oh so far away sindrome), the thought of leaving the Tour whilst your teammate is in yellow seems absurd, because I would have given my right arm just to ride the Grand Bouclé. But I guess Primoz has a luxury that we mere peons could never afford. Lucky him.

 

[RedheadDane]

P.S. On Netflix likely the idea will be Jonas single-handedly beaten Pogačar by an all in attack lasting 250km on stage 11. And on top of that he had to drop his selfish teammate who was pulling for Pogi. On the other hand and if Pogi wins. Imagine his surprise. When he will sit down after a job well done. Drinking a juice as he is too young for drinking beer. Anyway. To realize Netflix show is about Primož and Jonas.

I can't figure out whether you're somehow still unaware, or just ignoring the fact that it's not a Jumbo-Visma Netflix show.

Rather than soldiering on, getting dropped and finishing anonymously, as riders of less stature would have been forced by their teams to do (injuries or no injuries), TJV consented to a planned exit. Now each has a right to agree with the decision or frown upon it as disrespecting the Tour, but especially in the latter case it does not mean they are clueless.

Of course they "consented" to it. They ordered it.

 

[Extinction]

I can't figure out whether you're somehow still unaware, or just ignoring the fact that it's not a Jumbo-Visma Netflix show.



Of course they "consented" to it. They ordered it.

If so, again in hindsight, they were fools.

 

[RedheadDane]

If so, again in hindsight, they were fools.

For not wanting him to potentially destroy his own body? No race - not even the Tour de France - is more important than a rider's health.

 

[Oldermanish]

"was left isolated and looked over when he fell"? Really? I didn't see that camera angle at all. I saw a hay bale kicked into the road at a chicane and riders having less than a second to react. Please call Primoz and have him give you the true story, will you?

It never occurred to me that Jonas' countryfolks would make the effort to trash a teammate. Seems like a waste of time considering everyone has killed themselves to get him where he is.
Jonas: send a case of good champagne to Primoz, win or lose. He deserves it and you know it.

 

[Extinction]

For not wanting him to potentially destroy his own body? No race - not even the Tour de France - is more important than a rider's health.

He wasn't going to destroy his body, and they may well rue the day for not having him now.

 

[RedheadDane]

He wasn't going to destroy his body, and they may well rue the day for not having him now.

Maybe not permanently, but the risk of setbacks seems pretty big. I think it would be cool if Vingegaard wins the Tour, but not at the expense of Roglic's - or anyone's - health!
You're acting as if he was basically fine, and then randomly went "LoL, byeeeeeeeeee!"

 

[acm]

I guess that makes Philippa York, once Robert Millar, clueless then. I think you are deceived. Roglic did not pull out because his injuries risked getting worse. That's bs. He pulled out to rest up and then prepare for the Vuelta.

You just don't know that. And the only bs is York's article and your comment. Clearly some of you took his joke "Tour is just a preparation for Vuelta" too seriously.

 

[Lequack]

Everyone knows the Vuelta is the most important GT.

 

[Extinction]

You just don't know that. And the only bs is York's article and your comment. Clearly some of you took his joke "Tour is just a preparation for Vuelta" too seriously.

I agree with the tenor of York's article, more than your point of view. They are hypotheses, but, after considering the matter, I think his injuries were secondary to preparing for the Vuelta. Clearly the team was measuring costs vs benefits, not, however, considering the potential loss of another rider as important as Kruewswik. York found it scandalous that a rider should have abandoned the Tour whilst still being capable of soldiering on, and absolutely has a right to do so having done it before, and especially when the team's got the yellow to defend.

 

[Rackham]

I agree with the tenor of York's article, more than your point of view. They are hypotheses, but, after considering the matter, I think his injuries were secondary to preparing for the Vuelta. Clearly the team was measuring costs vs benefits, not, however, considering the potential loss of another rider as important as Kruewswik. York found it scandalous that a rider should have abandoned the Tour whilst still being capable of soldiering on, and absolutely has a right to do so having done it before, and especially when the team's got the yellow to defend.

Even if we accept the point of view Roglic could have continued the Tour (which is what that cycling news article is premised upon), a real debate worth having would be "is this even worth it?". It's just the Tour. He was co-leader, he crashed, he did his work on stage 11 & now he's done. Would quitting even be a 'sacrilege' if he could theoretically continue the race? I don't think so.

The Tour drives people insane & decisions which are logical in other races (i.e. withdrawing a rider in sub-optimal condition for future goals) is apparently a severe 'party foul' (to quote Lance Armstrong) in the TdF. If it's the yellow jersey which changes everything, then Roglic already played a huge role in giving Vingegaard his lead so he's done his duty (that's an understatement, i.e. Jumbo owes him big time for everything in this Tour & also everything which came before in previous years).

I reject the Tour > rider philosophy. Roglic has one career & that's it, i.e. once he's done, it's over. No one who's demanding he finishes this race will give a sh*t about him next week. He doesn't owe the masses anything, i.e. certainly not busting-up his season (or worse) in their summer colosseum games known as the TdF.

 

[Rackham]

If we're talking about Roglic here (& this is his thread after all), it's also true his fans have had way better moments in the Vuelta than in the Tour. It's just a fact.

Highlight for me being last year's patented no risk no glory suicide attack on the dusty descent. That's what Roglic is all about (it's how he won a stage in the 2018 TdF). Covadonga 2021 was also a good one. Why does this matter? Because there's no higher authority or God figure who judges riders & their careers at the end of their road. None. It's just fans & people who watch the sport who have shared memories. The rest is just endless data on a wikipedia page or procyclingstats.

If he never wins the TdF, for me he'll go down as the best rider to have never done so this century. But as a spectator I've had way more fun following this rider than watching some of the most famous Tour winners.

For me, that's all that matters.

 

[acm]

I agree with the tenor of York's article, more than your point of view. They are hypotheses, but, after considering the matter, I think his injuries were secondary to preparing for the Vuelta. Clearly the team was measuring costs vs benefits, not, however, considering the potential loss of another rider as important as Kruewswik. York found it scandalous that a rider should have abandoned the Tour whilst still being capable of soldiering on, and absolutely has a right to do so having done it before, and especially when the team's got the yellow to defend.

The point is that neither you nor York know if Primoz is capable of that.

 

[noob]

In sporza: Merijn Zeeman, architect bij Jumbo-Visma: "Zenuwachtig? Niet meer dan ik al was" | Tour | sporza

Thank you! That was a good article. That was pretty straightforward and jives with what I have seen.

(What I think is Rogla himself wanted to beat Pog, even if it was through Jonas. I think that's why he stayed. Honestly. And then he got worse and the team decided that it was enough and sent him home.

Rogla is greedy like that, and won't give up until the last fight and so the team kept him, until they realised they had to send him home, as he risked getting prolonged injury.)

I think Zeeman admits they should have sent him home earlier and that Rogla himself didn't ask to go home.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I can't figure out whether you're somehow still unaware, or just ignoring the fact that it's not a Jumbo-Visma Netflix show.

Isn't it?

 

[Valv.Piti]

You should give the Veloropa podcast a listen (the episode from the second rest day, the 11th of July). I think Plesner makes a much better case for his POV in that episode which wasn't at all as extremist as it looked like on Twitter. They spend the first ten minutes making their reasoning, and I really do think they have a point (that point is not that there is no room for two GC captains by the way, nor that Van Aert shouldn't be allowed to take his own chances sometimes) and you can disagree with them but it would be hard to call them clueless which you have done a few times (again, I must stress that I also didn't think they made much sense on Twitter but on the podcast they are more nuanced than that) without looking like a pure Van Aert fanboy.

Regarding Roglic, I think he continued in the race longer than he should have, probably. He looked very downbeat in the few interviews he gave in his final days and it seems ridiculous to claim that he could just have ridden a day more and then assessed his feelings on the rest day. I'm quite sure he did take that "just one more day" very many times.

Yeah well, I might give that a listen if he has abandoned his "only one agenda", "shoulda picked one captain before the race" and the "Wout is not allowed to do anything"-mantras...

 

[CyclistAbi]

In the end it's a good thing people like York and Armstrong (show) made a long list of things on how you should support your captain and what it takes do help to get and defend the yellow jersey at the Tour. Only the conclusion was wrong. And that is Roglič did all that and more. It's hence on them now to realize Roglič exceeded such expectations. And not as they claim the other way around.

 

[RedheadDane]

Isn't it?

Again, can't figure out whether you're actually ignorant, or just pretending to be. But anyway:

Tour de France confirms Netflix series and eight teams that will be involved | Cycling Weekly

 

[CyclistAbi]

Again, can't figure out whether you're actually ignorant, or just pretending to be. But anyway:

Tour de France confirms Netflix series and eight teams that will be involved | Cycling Weekly

Sure. Just like this Tour edition is about eight teams (and more). Fighting for the win.

 

[RedheadDane]

Sure. Just like this Tour edition is about eight teams (and more). Fighting for the win.

The documentary likely won't just be about the yellow jersey battle, but about a bunch of different stories.

 

[CyclistAbi]

The documentary likely won't just be about the yellow jersey battle, but about a bunch of different stories.

It was always in between Rogla and Pogi for this Tour edition. But there was a plot and a twist involved. Rogla would and did get a backstab from his team for the other JV member to win this Tour edition. This is hence a proper Tour edition. Hopefully Netflix doesn't spoil it by making a soap opera out of it. And hopefully not a horror story. Just take it for what it is. It's the Tour.

 

[RedheadDane]

It was always in between Rogla and Pogi for this Tour edition. But there was a plot and a twist involved. Rogla would and did get a backstab from his team for the other JV member to win this Tour edition. This is hence a proper Tour edition. Hopefully Netflix doesn't spoil it by making a soap opera out of it. And hopefully not a horror story. Just take it for what it is. It's the Tour.

Exactly. Hopefully the show will show just what happened. And hopefully the show won't focus just on the yellow jersey battle, negleting all the other storylines.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Exactly. Hopefully the show will show just what happened. And hopefully the show won't focus just on the yellow jersey battle, negleting all the other storylines.

In general i agree just about the last part. It's the Tour. They should neglect other stories.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Rogla needs to realize if he let people too close they will take advantage of him. It's the Tour. Pogi, Jonas, his dad, his mom ... It's the Tour. Nobody will do for him what he done for Pogi and Jonas.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKIgv8AhffA


In cinema this works. Not at the Tour.