Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Jumbot]

Just expected a fellow Roglic fan would have surely heard about these...

 

[Rackham]

Just expected a fellow Roglic fan would have surely heard about these...

Okay then.

If the Ineos rumor existed last year (as you commented), i.e. before he extended with Jumbo, then we could also conclude their interest isn't sudden.

But as a Roglic fan, I want him to do what's best for his career & keep on give us some awesome stomps & entertainment as he races to win, not as a dom. And for me, leadership in the TdF (or even co-leadership with Bernal if he has recovered) at Ineos could be better than what he currently has.

Hell, from a tactical standpoint there could be a 'symbiotic' relationship with Bernal because Roglic is better at ITT therefor Bernal could attack from long range whilst Rog sits on Vingegaard & Pogacar. All this is interesting to theorize about.

And if we're talking hypothetical transfers, I'd obviously prefer Ineos > Bahrain. It's not just about the image, it's about the team experience in GT's & their size.

 

[Valv.Piti]

A lot will depend on the team dynamics inside Jumbo (only Roglic knows whether he's happy or not, or whether he even trusts these people to give him a fair chance).

But from the outside, I could totally see why Ineos would be an interesting team for a rider like Roglic if he wants to beat the other supermen. Ineos ride more conservatively (like Roglic) & have a structure which would theoretically protect him & his teammates, instead of Jumbo's shooting from the hip with WvA firing bullets all over the road on every stage & a co-leader (Vingegaard) who is current TdF champion. Vingegaard & Pogacar could mark each other next year & if a rider like Roglic (for example) wants to benefit from that, then he'd need the tactical freedom to do so (at Jumbo there's a huge risk he never gets the chance if Vingegaard is ahead & has the yellow jersey).

It's an interesting conversation in any case, i.e. because riding another 'samey' season next year with Jumbo looks a bit depressing from the outside (especially as when it really mattered they pulled away his support & favored Vingegaard).

I simply do not know where this "they didn't support Roglic" comes from. Whats that narrative? They pulled 3 riders down for Roglic, similar to Vingegaard, and Wout pulled Roglic back on stage 11. He was given the same opportunities, but crashed, and during the season Wout and Vingegaard rode in support for Primoz, helping him winning Paris-Nice and Dauphine. Its kinda weird.

 

[Rackham]

I simply do not know where this "they didn't support Roglic" comes from. Whats that narrative? They pulled 3 riders down for Roglic, similar to Vingegaard, and Wout pulled Roglic back on stage 11. He was given the same opportunities, but crashed, and during the season Wout and Vingegaard rode in support for Primoz, helping him winning Paris-Nice and Dauphine. Its kinda weird.

Team car for stage 5 featured WvA & Vingegaard's spare bikes on the better accessible side & Roglic was given the third spot (as mentioned on Eurosport).

Also, before the crash Jumbo had pulled everyone except Laporte back to assist Vingegaard & left Roglic (who was best placed on the road at that time) lacking support riders. His crash was a combination of real bad luck but also it has to be said a direct result of this lack of teammates. The worst case scenario hit right at the wrong time but Jumbo had already played their 'all for Vingegaard' cards.

I just don't think Roglic stands a chance of winning the TdF when the team car makes decisions which are detrimental to his chances.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I think thats an absolutely rubbish take, but we have discussed that before.

 

[Jumbot]

But as a Roglic fan, I want him to do what's best for his career & keep on give us some awesome stomps & entertainment as he races to win, not as a dom. And for me, leadership in the TdF (or even co-leadership with Bernal if he has recovered) at Ineos could be better than what he currently has.

Of course I'm not only Roglic fan but the team fan too, so my point of view is different as expected. I don't want to see him bringing wins to the soulless 50M budget team Sky, surely they can develop their own riders as they seem to sign every young talented guy that they get their hands on to create kind of monopoly on the future. I also don't believe in this "he's a superdomestique now at TJV" bs so I'm hoping he stays and wins many more races... but don't know, I guess we'll find out in due time

 

[Rackham]

I think thats an absolutely rubbish take, but we have discussed that before.

Well that's your prerogative.

I have my opinion, whilst you & other can disagree as much as you want. Paris-Nice & the Dauphiné are basically not comparable to the TdF & shouldn't even factor when analysing Jumbo's decision regarding which rider they would back in the Tour (evidenced by the fact Vingegaad peaked massively in the TdF whereas he was nowhere in the Spring). Also, on the topic of "rubbish takes'" I think it's questionable to insinuate WvA was sent back for Roglic on stage 11 as part of a strategy which favored Roglic & supported him.

No, he was sent back, collected Roglic who was dropped on the Galibier & Rog was immediately put to work on the front of the group to pull for Vingegaard (& he only lasted a few seconds anyway).

He was toast even before stage 11 (something Jumbo knew, considering the state of his back injuries).

 

[Jns]

Team car for stage 5 featured WvA & Vingegaard's spare bikes on the better accessible side & Roglic was given the third spot (as mentioned on Eurosport).

Also, before the crash Jumbo had pulled everyone except Laporte back to assist Vingegaard & left Roglic (who was best placed on the road at that time) lacking support riders. His crash was a combination of real bad luck but also it has to be said a direct result of this lack of teammates. The worst case scenario hit right at the wrong time but Jumbo had already played their 'all for Vingegaard' cards.

I just don't think Roglic stands a chance of winning the TdF when the team car makes decisions which are detrimental to his chances.

The team will only prioritise Vingegaard (to the detriment of the chances of Roglic), if they know that Vingegaard is stronger or more likely to win the TdF than Roglic at that time. I also believe that if the team's data shows that Roglic is the strongest of the two, the team will be favouring him. It is only fair that a team tries to optimize their chances to win the TdF.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Hypothetically. If Roglič would to switch to Ineos at the end of 2022 season. And lets say that Ineos as a team would actually stand behind him 100%. On lets say Tour 2023. As a proper team should. And obviously if Roglič would be on Roglič level.

In such case i do feel that at minimum the benefits would be such as getting Roglič through stage 5 safely. He likely would be the last team member on a hill to do his thing. He would still have access to great material. Likely a pay raise. Compared to lets say JV. Where it's reasonable to expect he will first need to stomp Jonas. To force his team to make sure he gets safely through stage 5. For being able to be in position to take off last on the hill.

Ineos would get the edge back with Roglič. Likely something they dearly desire.

If a switch was ever to happen then in my opinion now it is reasonable time to take this option into consideration. And based on the actions of all parties involved to decide by the end of the year. Why not. No risk no glory.

 

[stonerider]

I simply do not know where this "they didn't support Roglic" comes from. Whats that narrative? They pulled 3 riders down for Roglic, similar to Vingegaard, and Wout pulled Roglic back on stage 11. He was given the same opportunities, but crashed, and during the season Wout and Vingegaard rode in support for Primoz, helping him winning Paris-Nice and Dauphine. Its kinda weird.

Vingegaard had to wait up for Primoz at Dauphine to give him the win there. If that isn't support I don't know what it is.

Wout had to pull Primoz on the last Mountain stage of Paris-Nice to help him win that race. Primoz just hasn't been that strong this year...Jumbo have tried to support him but when a rider is in decline you eventually have to face the facts and back stronger riders if you have them.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Vingegaard had to wait up for Primoz at Dauphine to give him the win there. If that isn't support I don't know what it is.

Wout had to pull Primoz on the last Mountain stage of Paris-Nice to help him win that race. Primoz just hasn't been that strong this year...Jumbo have tried to support him but when a rider is in decline you eventually have to face the facts and back stronger riders if you have them.

And Jonas won this Tour edition alone? Both of the mentioned cyclist not helping him substantially?

As for stage 5. As this is what the discussion was about. JV did a poor job supporting Roglič. In all regards and on all levels. It's reasonable to expect Ineos would do a better job. Or Groupama–FDJ. Rogličes first real team.

 

[YavorD]

Are you still discussing stage 5? I love Roglic, but the team is not at fault for what happened. As far as I remember WVA was at che back (possibly even in a different group) with SK senior, that's why he was with Vingo.

Ironically enough, that WVA crash was blessing in disguise for Jumbo. Wout doesn't crash------>stays at the front------>doesn't wait for Vingo, instead stays with Roglic. Tour might have been really different.

 

[stonerider]

And Jonas won this Tour edition alone? Both of the mentioned cyclist not helping him substantially?

As for stage 5. As this is what the discussion was about. JV did a poor job supporting Roglič. In all regards and on all levels. It's reasonable to expect Ineos would do a better job. Or Groupama–FDJ. Rogličes first real team.

Well now Roglic can move along and go win another Vuelta...maybe. I'd suggest he try his luck at the Giro next year.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Are you still discussing stage 5? I love Roglic, but the team is not at fault for what happened. As far as I remember WVA was at che back (possibly even in a different group) with SK senior, that's why he was with Vingo.

Ironically enough, that WVA crash was blessing in disguise for Jumbo. Wout doesn't crash------>stays at the front------>doesn't wait for Vingo, instead stays with Roglic. Tour might have been really different.

For Roglič this Tour ended at stage 5. Hence it will be always about stage 5. JV doing a poor job. I feel that your hectic description proves the point. JV was somewhere else. On a crucial stage.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Well now Roglic can move along and go win another Vuelta...maybe. I'd suggest he try his luck at the Giro next year.

I am sure that he will give Tour another try. As for the rest. Whatever he decided he has my support.

 

[YavorD]

For Roglič this Tour ended at stage 5. Hence it will be always about stage 5. JV doing a poor job. I feel that your hectic description proves the point. JV was somewhere else. On a crucial stage.

Jumbo was with Vingegaard, he won the Tour and Roglic was important part of that win.
I bet Roglic feels happy for Jonas and the team and so you should. Get over it.

Are you implying Jumbo should've sent only one guy with JV and he finishes 4 minutes behind? Plus, I explained the reason why SK and WVA were behind, it's not like WVA was guiding Roglic, just leaving him alone the moment when Vingo had mechanical (or a flat, don't remember)

 

[CyclistAbi]

Jumbo was with Vingegaard, he won the Tour and Roglic was important part of that win.
I bet Roglic feels happy for Jonas and the team and so you should. Get over it.

Are you implying Jumbo should've sent only one guy with JV and he finishes 4 minutes behind? Plus, I explained the reason why SK and WVA were behind, it's not like WVA was guiding Roglic, just leaving him alone the moment when Vingo had mechanical (or a flat, don't remember)

I am not trying to imply anything. I am saying it as bluntly as i can. In regards to Roglič JV did a poor job on stage 5. For me it's not about getting over it or anything like that at all. I am just merely stating the facts.

 

[YavorD]

I am not trying to imply anything. I am saying it as bluntly as i can. In regards to Roglič JV did a poor job on stage 5. For me it's not about getting over it or anything like that at all. I am just merely stating the facts.

What did they do and what would you do if you were DS and why?
Please, try to be less of a fanboy and be more objective as you often miss the latter when discussing Roglic.

 

[CyclistAbi]

What did they do and what would you do if you were DS and why?
Please, try to be less of a fanboy and be more objective as you often miss the latter when discussing Roglic.

We have actually discussed this in this thread in length. But OK if you want to do it once more. The gist of it. On a crucial stage Roglič was left behind alone in a bunch to crash in some weird incident. In my book hence this comes down to JV doing a poor job. It's as simple as that.

I don't know what else would you like to discuss. Or on how could you pin point such view to a fanboy. No amount of discussions can turn that around in saying JV did a good job on stage 5 in regards to Roglič. They didn't. If you will still insist they did just that.

Then OK. Lets just agree on the common ground. And that is JV did Roglič a solid in regards to stage 5. No point in denying that. They at least took the credit.

P.S. On what they should have done. On stage 5 they should be around and keep him at front. All of them and that includes van Aert. If an accident would have happened in such case. Than it would be bad luck. And not a poor job done by the team. Jonas would still have a team member or two at back. Or one or two would be dropped back. They would fix the mechanical and bring him back.

 

[cen]

Sounds like a *** rumor to be honest.. with Dumoulin out, Jonas and Roglič are the only real GC contenders at Jumbo right now. He was leader of every stage race this year, won 2, crashed from third due to bad luck. If he goes to Vuelta he will again have full team support there. He also signed a contract till 2025.. he wouldn't do that if he didn't feel good in the team.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Sounds like a *** rumor to be honest.. with Dumoulin out, Jonas and Roglič are the only real GC contenders at Jumbo right now. He was leader of every stage race this year, won 2, crashed from third due to bad luck. If he goes to Vuelta he will again have full team support there. He also signed a contract till 2025.. he wouldn't do that if he didn't feel good in the team.

On the other hand his bike is positioned at third place on the team car. Hence he should at least listen to what other teams are saying. And then listen to his own team. On what they are saying. And after actually doing in the race.

No harm in that.

 

[YavorD]

We have actually discussed this in this thread in length. But OK if you want to do it once more. The gist of it. On a crucial stage Roglič was left behind alone in a bunch to crash in some weird incident. In my book hence this comes down to JV doing a poor job. It's as simple as that.

I don't know what else would you like to discuss. Or on how could you pin point such view to a fanboy. No amount of discussions can turn that around in saying JV did a good job on stage 5 in regards to Roglič. They didn't. If you will still insist they did just that.

Then OK. Lets just agree on the common ground. And that is JV did Roglič a regards to stage 5. No point in denying that. They at least took the credit.

First things first, Roglic was not "left behind alone" until very late in the stage and that was normal. Maybe he was left in a front group with only one team mate but that's all about it.

Sorry, but all you say lacks any reasonable argument, hense why it seems you only put it from a fanboy point of view.

If you insist JV made a bad job, please care to explain what would you do differently and what would it change regarding JV's Tour afterward?

 

[CyclistAbi]

First things first, Roglic was not "left behind alone" until very late in the stage and that was normal. Maybe he was left in a front group with only one team mate but that's all about it.

Sorry, but all you say lacks any reasonable argument, hense why it seems you only put it from a fanboy point of view.

If you insist JV made a bad job, please care to explain what would you do differently and what would it change regarding JV's Tour afterward?

OK then you agree he was left alone back in the bunch. This hence is something we agree on and not to be some fanboy claim. As one can i guess always watch a replay.

Now i guess it's up to any reasonable individual to decide if that is a good or a poor job done by the team. And this by itself offers the answer to your additional question. On what could or couldn't be done better.

I can live with that.

 

[CyclistAbi]

As for the hypothetical debate we had. It won't happen but lets say Ineos would offer first bike position on the team car. A dedicated Tour 2023 team. And a pay raise. That would in my opinion be something worth considering. But likely for now they are still trying all that with Pogi.

 

[YavorD]

OK then you agree he was left alone back in the bunch. This hence is something we agree on and not to be some fanboy claim. As one can i guess always watch a replay.

Now i guess it's up to any reasonable individual to decide if that is a good or a poor job done by the team. And this by itself offers the answer to your additional question. On what could or couldn't be done better.

I can live with that.

But I guess the team goal wasn't Roglic's high placing, but actually winning the Tour.
If they succeed (and they will), then every single decision they made during the Tour has impact on that win. Hense from a team point of view, their decision in stage 5 is right.

Now, let's take a different perspective. Jumbo doesn't split recourses (because that's what they really did), they leave Vingegaard alone, he loses 4 minutes as a result and doesn't win the Tour. Instead they go full Roglic, but he still crashes (as you can't possibly blin Jumbo for his crash). Would this be a better handling of the situation for you?