Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[VayaVayaVaya]

I think it would be great for the sport if Roglic goes to Ineos. Roglic would be the clear #1 with the support of a great team, establishing a bit of a counterweight to Jumbo, with Pogi as a third force by himself.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I learned it the hard way: Its impossible to have a proper discussion with CyclistAlbi. Seemed like you did as well, YavorD.

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

Hey guys, at first, I was disappointed of Primoz, that he DNS in the Tour, and left Jonas and the other boys. Then I read about his broken back, and suddenly changed my mind.

By the way, I think Primoz won‘t leave the team, he still has a contract for the next years. He will benefit from the results of Jonas and the team in this Tour. These eight who started in Denmark, plus Dennis and few others, have become so close to each other - they are friends. Primoz could not find a better atmosphere elsewhere.

I hope he heals now, and comes back stronger.

2022 showed, everything is possible. A TdF win in 2023, in Jumbo Visma jersey, is absolutely possible for Primoz.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

But I guess the team goal wasn't Roglic's high placing, but actually winning the Tour.
If they succeed (and they will), then every single decision they made during the Tour has impact on that win. Hense from a team point of view, their decision in stage 5 is right.

Now, let's take a different perspective. Jumbo doesn't split recourses (because that's what they really did), they leave Vingegaard alone, he loses 4 minutes as a result and doesn't win the Tour. Instead they go full Roglic, but he still crashes (as you can't possibly blin Jumbo for his crash). Would this be a better handling of the situation for you?

This is an illogical simplification. This is why “postmortems” are so important. You can make good decisions and still have bad results and make bad decision and still have good results.

And of course they should not have left Vingegaard alone. They should have not had Wout ride for his own placement that day as it had the most potential to ruin a riders GC chances, which would have meant he’d have been guiding Roglic or Vingegaard, not on his own at the back, with Laporte in front of the other. That might have prevented his crash. However, once he crashed, they should have immediately dropped Laporte to pull Roglic into the Vingegaard group instead of leaving him on his own.

With hindsight, yes, we know that Jumbo had an extraordinarily successful Tour despite all of that. Jonas was amazing, as was Wout, and those two deserve their success. But that doesn’t mean every decision was the correct decision.

Also, it strikes me that Wout and Vingegaard have not mentioned anything to the press about Roglic at all that I’ve seen, neither gratitude, sadness, or anything else. But I saw elsewhere that Vingegaard said he’d be happy to share Tour leadership with Wout next year.

Some of us Roglic fans are just surprised that the team has not prioritized him, even though some of us - at least myself - recognize that Vingegaard has proven himself to be a phenomenal GC rider, beyond the wildest reasonable expectations.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@YavorD

So basically you are claiming JV did a good job in regards to Roglič on stage 5?

@Valv.Piti

And based on your remark you hence agree with him?

I don't agree with that. In my opinion JV did a poor job. In regards to Roglič and stage 5. But other people can watch a replay and see for themself. Nobody has to take our word for it.

 

[CyclistAbi]

On top of that. If Roglič wouldn't have readjusted his shoulder and pull himself back into contention. Doing that with a broken back. In that case stage 11 would never have happened.

Hence yes. Please just don't mention the team. In regards to Roglič and this Tour edition. It's just silly. From team perspective what one can say is they did him a solid on stage 5 and he took one for the team on stage 11. That is all there is to it.

 

[Jumbot]

On the other hand his bike is positioned at third place on the team car. Hence he should at least listen to what other teams are saying. And then listen to his own team. On what they are saying. And after actually doing in the race.

No harm in that.

On the other hand he gets the first slot in the TT where they thought there's the least chance of rain... If that's not blatant backstabbing of the best climber in the race in his own home country, then don't know what is...

But maybe, just maybe, you have three leaders, one is in yellow and a stage favorite, the other two are your GC leaders, they're co-leaders on same level, you want to make a decision on bike placement without seemingly giving any of the two a preferential treatment (not basing on palmares), so you decide based on the current GC standing (1 second enough)... Nah, I like the backstabbing theory a lot more, those potential 5 seconds more during a potential bike change could have potentially reshaped the whole Tour

But if Rog wants to go to Sky then I can only wish him good luck...

 

[bNator]

After all things considered I don’t think TJV has done wrong to Primož in stage 5. They acted exactly as one would have expected given the one thing they already knew back then and what we learned later on and what @CyclistAbi fails to acknowledge - that Vinge is ridiculously strong and (at least this year) much stronger than Roglic. Ok we don’t know that for sure but we have an idea based on Roglic’s performance this year and based on Vinge’s performance on this TDF.

That, however, doesn’t mean he should stay in TJV. His absolute strength which grants him 3rd priority in TJV can still be more than enough to grant him 1st priority almost anywhere else - including Ineos. I think he ought to seriously consider that.

 

[Rackham]

I find the debate regarding Roglic's treatment by Jumbo Visma in this TdF (& before) often veers into people saying he should be content with his lot at Jumbo & shouldn't ask for more (paraphrased but that's the gist of it), i.e. whilst it's all well & good to make that 'moral' stance based on what people believe is a subjective (or neutral) viewpoint, yet what if another team actually does actually offer him a better deal? i.e. more support & more guarantees? Should he say no just because people think he doesn't deserve more support than Jumbo offered? I don't think that's how it works (or should work either).

This sport is cutthroat as hell & he only has one career. We've also seen there's quite a lot of disingenuousness & 'fakery' in the sport, especially from sponsors who praise winning riders like they're gods & toss absentees into the 'forgotten heap'. Jumbo haven't even really properly addressed his injury situation either. I don't think that's correct considering his status at Jumbo & what he's won for them.

So if Ineos offer a better deal on the road next season? Go for it. In any case, lol at this little comment:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551240187585482752

 

[Lequack]

 

[noob]

Both Rogla and Sepp. I approve

 

[bNator]

And this is how it should be

#sammenwinnenmyaas

maybe I’m a bit bitter

 

[FroomeWagon]

I think if Roglic has any inspirations to win the TDF, he needs to leave Jumbo as Vingegaard has now established himself as the alpha dog on the squad.

I have always disliked Sky/Inneos, but if they want him he should really consider a transfer. There is no doubt they would support him well (better than even UAE supports Pogi).

Only if he doesn't mind playing second fiddle and is happy never winning the TDF should he stay at JV.

 

[CyclistAbi]

This Tour edition is now over. From Rogličes point of view it was a complete flop. Hence i can't be happy about it. Lets just hope that the back injury won't leave long term issues.

But i am sure that once Primož sleeps it over and the thoughts in his head will be made clear. He will realize that not only on stage 5. But on this Tour edition as a whole. His team was really there for him. And will after realizing that thank them for it. As he now owes them one. As a team captain you really can't ask for more. Than the level of support he got. In the end it was just bad luck. Team could have not done anything more.

 

[YavorD]

@CyclistAbi I'm saying they did the best they could.

You carry on avoiding my question. With the riders JV had in Roglic/Vingo group, what would you do to ensure both of them have enough support?

 

[CyclistAbi]

@CyclistAbi I'm saying they did the best they could.

OK.

 

[Bonimenier]

Nobody has to take our word for it.

Don't worry. Nobody with half a brain does.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Don't worry. Nobody with half a brain does.

In general i don't have a problem with people with half a brain. As long as they chose to use it. In some meaningful and constructive way.

 

[VeloMaster]

I think if Roglic has any inspirations to win the TDF, he needs to leave Jumbo as Vingegaard has now established himself as the alpha dog on the squad.

I have always disliked Sky/Inneos, but if they want him he should really consider a transfer. There is no doubt they would support him well (better than even UAE supports Pogi).

Only if he doesn't mind playing second fiddle and is happy never winning the TDF should he stay at JV.

Bora's roster might be a good fit, although I don't know much about the organization as a whole

 

[Oldermanish]

I find the debate regarding Roglic's treatment by Jumbo Visma in this TdF (& before) often veers into people saying he should be content with his lot at Jumbo & shouldn't ask for more (paraphrased but that's the gist of it), i.e. whilst it's all well & good to make that 'moral' stance based on what people believe is a subjective (or neutral) viewpoint, yet what if another team actually does actually offer him a better deal? i.e. more support & more guarantees? Should he say no just because people think he doesn't deserve more support than Jumbo offered? I don't think that's how it works (or should work either).

This sport is cutthroat as hell & he only has one career. We've also seen there's quite a lot of disingenuousness & 'fakery' in the sport, especially from sponsors who praise winning riders like they're gods & toss absentees into the 'forgotten heap'. Jumbo haven't even really properly addressed his injury situation either. I don't think that's correct considering his status at Jumbo & what he's won for them.

So if Ineos offer a better deal on the road next season? Go for it. In any case, lol at this little comment:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551240187585482752

JV treatment of Roglic is pretty much what rider treatment has always been like, save for some extraordinary team/rider relationships. If you aren't winning for them you'd better be indispensable in the wins the team gets.
As for Primoz going to Ineos...they have resources but didn't show enough in Le Tour to suggest they'd provide a Vingo, Tadej beating lineup. If Primoz recovers and does well for the late season he'll still be the proven guy. If we know one thing from Covid and crashes; they interrupt or end careers for the short term. This season's dissed rider is next season's winner. JV would be beyond stupid not to keep Primoz if he wins the Vuelta. Ineos would also need a good sense of humor to add his paycheck to a team that hasn't fulfilled lately. Lately is all that counts for them, too.

 

[Rackham]

JV treatment of Roglic is pretty much what rider treatment has always been like, save for some extraordinary team/rider relationships. If you aren't winning for them you'd better be indispensable in the wins the team gets.
As for Primoz going to Ineos...they have resources but didn't show enough in Le Tour to suggest they'd provide a Vingo, Tadej beating lineup. If Primoz recovers and does well for the late season he'll still be the proven guy. If we know one thing from Covid and crashes; they interrupt or end careers for the short term. This season's dissed rider is next season's winner. JV would be beyond stupid not to keep Primoz if he wins the Vuelta. Ineos would also need a good sense of humor to add his paycheck to a team that hasn't fulfilled lately. Lately is all that counts for them, too.

I think Roglic & Jumbo used to qualify as an extraordinary relationship, i.e. this modern Rabobank's rise coincides with Roglic's rise. Also, contrary to Vingegaard who landed in a ready-made super team, Roglic climbed the ladder in a sketchy often misfiring squad with major screw-ups at all levels of the team (Giro 2019 for example). It wasn't a well oiled machine & despite Jumbo's attempts to present itself as above its riders, Roglic is a separate case. As I've said before, they owe him a lot. It was a "mutually beneficial" relationship with a huge from rags to riches vibe.

So, the quasi ice-cold disinterest from the team towards Roglic right now after they won his own major objective? An eye-opener for sure. A handful of empty platitudes in the press really don't cut it. I mean sure, Ineos Grenadiers is the highly corporate mega machine everyone knows but I pressume even they would have shown more class & care with Bernal (for example) & his history in their team isn't exactly comparable to Roglic's at Jumbo Visma because they were winning bucket loads before him. Jumbo really wasn't winning anything at all before Roglic.

The most egregious part for a Roglic fan? Seeing the team congratulate itself finally winning the Tour (all the usual sycophantic messages as well), whilst the one guy who took that defeat himself is sitting somewhere with an injured back & is probably out of the Vuelta. Oh & he's the one who played such a crucial role in this TdF win anyway with his attacks on Pogacar in stage 11.

This post also isn't 'bitterness', it's just from my point of view a short breakdown of what I consider a breakdown in Roglic's standing at Jumbo Visma, i.e. due in large parts to Jumbo forgetting who they are & losing sight of what made them a tightly knit group in the first place. They've gone mega corporate, mega ambitious & mega amnesiac.

As always, just my opinion.

 

[Oldermanish]

I think Roglic & Jumbo used to qualify as an extraordinary relationship, i.e. this modern Rabobank's rise coincides with Roglic's rise. Also, contrary to Vingegaard who landed in a ready-made super team, Roglic climbed the ladder in a sketchy often misfiring squad with major screw-ups at all levels of the team (Giro 2019 for example). It wasn't a well oiled machine & despite Jumbo's attempts to present itself as above its riders, Roglic is a separate case. As I've said before, they owe him a lot. It was a "mutually beneficial" relationship with a huge from rags to riches vibe.

So, the quasi ice-cold disinterest from the team towards Roglic right now after they won his own major objective? An eye-opener for sure. A handful of empty platitudes in the press really don't cut it. I mean sure, Ineos Grenadiers is the highly corporate mega machine everyone knows but I pressume even they would have shown more class & care with Bernal (for example) & his history in their team isn't exactly comparable to Roglic's at Jumbo Visma because they were winning bucket loads before him. Jumbo really wasn't winning anything at all before Roglic.

The most egregious part for a Roglic fan? Seeing the team congratulate itself finally winning the Tour (all the usual sycophantic messages as well), whilst the one guy who took that defeat himself is sitting somewhere with an injured back & is probably out of the Vuelta. Oh & he's the one who played such a crucial role in this TdF win anyway with his attacks on Pogacar in stage 11.

This post also isn't 'bitterness', it's just from my point of view a short breakdown of what I consider a breakdown in Roglic's standing at Jumbo Visma, i.e. due in large parts to Jumbo forgetting who they are & losing sight of what made them a tightly knit group in the first place. They've gone mega corporate, mega ambitious & mega amnesiac.

As always, just my opinion.

I agree with all of your points. I would add that it also is never a static environment. Roglic won't get written off because he'll do what he's capable of again. If JV really messes with him he could go to UAE and make them regret putting two countrymen on the same squad. Maybe Sepp would go?

 

[Bolder]

Seriously, it was only a crash that left Roglic in this position. He'd have been a solid third IMO and possibly second if he had stayed healthy - I think he could have distanced Pog on Granon, too. His palmares would be awesome if he hadn't crashed in some really big races (to put it mildly). JV would be insane to let him go before he retires.

 

[Rackham]

Seriously, it was only a crash that left Roglic in this position. He'd have been a solid third IMO and possibly second if he had stayed healthy - I think he could have distanced Pog on Granon, too. His palmares would be awesome if he hadn't crashed in some really big races (to put it mildly). JV would be insane to let him go before he retires.

I think a very real argument can be made on the issue of Jumbo Visma's Tour de France approach having never worked for Roglic, like ever. 2018? He had to overcome Kruijswijk & some pretty sh*t tactics (still a great result), 2019? Oops, huge missed opportunity, 2020? Crashed in the Dauphiné, had Dumoulin shoehorned in as co-leader & the Jumbo choo-choo train with the result we know. 2021 & 2022 are carbon copy disasters owing to shitty luck & lack of support at key moments.

So... I agree with Johan Bruyneel's opinion piece in WielerFlits: Johan Bruyneel: Jumbo-Visma geeft Tadej Pogacar veel huiswerk mee | WielerFlits

Natuurlijk is INEOS – Grenadiers nog altijd een topploeg, maar als zij de komende jaren weer mee willen doen om de Tour te winnen, zie ik maar één mogelijkheid: Primoz Roglic weghalen bij Jumbo-Visma.

Roglic
De Nederlandse ploeg zal richting de toekomst vooral de kaart van de veel jongere Vingegaard spelen. En Roglic zal in de komende jaren maar één doel hebben: de Tour winnen. Qua geld zit hij bij beide ploegen goed. Misschien kan INEOS – Grenadiers zelfs nog iets meer betalen. Dan wordt voor hem de afweging bij welk team met welke renners om hem heen de kans het grootst is dat hij de Tour wint. Dat is in mijn ogen de Britse ploeg.

We'll find out soon enough. First things first, we'll get confirmation of his injury status & his yes/no presence in the Vuelta.

 

[CyclistAbi]

An interesting conundrum indeed. Lets see on how it will unfold. I feel it was a smart move. To go silent until the decisions are made.