Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[SarahtheDane]

Post number 7000!

I wonder if he's so badly injured that he couldn't attend the celebration in Paris/the extent of his injury would be to obvious. Or if he was not feeling up for it emotionally.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@SarahtheDane,

Congratulations!

P.S. He likely wasn't invited.

 

[Gargamel35]

@SarahtheDane,

Congratulations!

P.S. He likely wasn't invited.

He would probably be a disctraction among green and yellow super boys and all the high ranking bosses that are all smiles now and counting money.

 

[Gargamel35]

For what it's worth, Vinge said in a big interview for French magazine that he believes 2 captains are a perfect tactic for next races and that without Roglič stage 11 attacks, he probably wouldn't win TdF.

 

[CyclistAbi]

On the other hand he might just be impersonating Ben.

 

[Gargamel35]

Maybe. But i find it very strange he didn't post anything on his Insta account about JV winning it all. All the other injured riders did.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Personally i feel that now all other parties need to talk first. Roglič needs to listen. And ask some questions. After all that for Roglič to talk again.

We'll see.

 

[Oldermanish]

@SarahtheDane,

Congratulations!

P.S. He likely wasn't invited.

He's got a family he hasn't seen. Why drag your injured a*s to a party where you'll sit awkwardly against a wall while everyone fawns over the cool kids?

 

[Rackham]

Stage 5 was really ground zero in terms of the sh*t that hit the fan in this TdF for Roglic (no matter the perspective). I found this article interesting (via someone who posted it on reddit), i.e. Boštjan Mervar (Roglic's coach at Adria Mobil) was interviewed immediately after the stage & was really angry about Jumbo's tactics when they sacrificed Roglic: Mervar ostro o taktiki Jumbo-Visme: Brez zveze, nesmisel. Ne vem, kaj naj še rečem. - siol.net

English via a translator:

"Ok, I've calmed down a bit now," Boštjan Mervar, a former cycling pro and one of the key men in Primož Roglič's cycling transformation, told us in a phone conversation about half an hour after the end of the middle of the fifth stage of the Tour de France when we asked him for a brief comment on what was going on. He was Zasavec's coach in the Adria Mobil team when the former ski jumper took up cycling, so he was very emotional about the events at the end of the stage.

Primož Roglič suffered a disaster on the fifth stage of the Tour de France, which took the riders over eleven spectacular cobbled sections. After a crash, he lost a huge amount of time in the overall standings and suffered a major blow in his fight for the coveted overall victory in the all-round race.

"It really was a small disaster," nodded a disappointed Boštjan Mervar, adding, "I was more disappointed with his team. I was thinking right and I said to myself that I really don't want to look at all this subjectively, because I like Primož, but I don't understand the tactics of Jumbo-Visme today, because they are pulling one group forward and the other is in front, so they are chasing each other. I really do not understand that. We did not do that, and we were a continental team. But from that point of view we were a better organised team than Jumbo-Visma was today."

That's a severe criticism of the Dutch team, which had a really bad day on Wednesday, with a number of crashes by its main assets, and then a hysterical problem-solving session at the end, in which it was Primož Roglič who drew the shortest one. "I really don't understand. Those people who were in the cars don't deserve to be there. I don't know. Let's say if, when Roglič fell, the group with van Aert and Vingegaard had waited only 15 seconds for Roglič to join them, the stage would have ended the same way. Maybe even better, because seven riders could have pulled, but there were three riders in one group and three riders in the other group... It's irrelevant, it's nonsense. I don't know what else to say. They really kept the yellow jersey, but they're going to lose it sooner or later anyway," said Mervar.

When we spoke, it was not yet known that Roglič had dislocated his shoulder when he fell over a bale of hay, which was accidentally dragged onto the road by one of the motorcycles in the caravan, and had to adjust it himself before he could continue the race. Still, we can't help feeling that Jumbo-Visma sacrificed him, with all the support being given to Wout van Aert, who rescued the yellow jersey and himself epically pulled Jonas Vingegaard, who the Dutch seem to be favouring as their first overall favourite for the race.

"I'm sorry that Primož didn't go to another team two years ago. Today they let me down on the whole line. I really want to see how it will be in the end, where Jumbo-Visma will be in the overall classification, because what they are doing now, from stage to stage, full on, headless, is not the best. Good, because they have done something with van Aert. All honours, but that's not it," said Mervar disappointed.

Nearly 3 weeks later the net result is Jumbo won the TdF & fulfilled their pre-Tour objectives but they did so at the expense of Roglic (he was sacrificed) & he broke his back.

Would any other rider be fine going through that sort of sh*t again next year? (hence the Ineos rumors). Having co-leaders high-up in GC might be good for Jumbo but on the basis of this TdF it was really freaking awful for Roglic because when it came down to the harsh choice, Jumbo backed Vingegaard. Even with the benefit of hindsight I completely agree with Boštjan Mervar, i.e. because even though the final result might have been Jumbo's dream scenario, for Roglic it was pretty much a massive nightmare (an understatement).

He got nothing from this TdF & the worst part is even if he hadn't seriously hurt himself on stage 5 he still wouldn't have gotten anything either because his team pulled his support away & backed Vingegaard.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I think a very real argument can be made on the issue of Jumbo Visma's Tour de France approach having never worked for Roglic, like ever. 2018? He had to overcome Kruijswijk & some pretty sh*t tactics (still a great result), 2019? Oops, huge missed opportunity, 2020? Crashed in the Dauphiné, had Dumoulin shoehorned in as co-leader & the Jumbo choo-choo train with the result we know. 2021 & 2022 are carbon copy disasters owing to shitty luck & lack of support at key moments.

So... I agree with Johan Bruyneel's opinion piece in WielerFlits: Johan Bruyneel: Jumbo-Visma geeft Tadej Pogacar veel huiswerk mee | WielerFlits



We'll find out soon enough. First things first, we'll get confirmation of his injury status & his yes/no presence in the Vuelta.

What does Bruyneel say there?

 

[Rackham]

What does Bruyneel say there?

Summary: if Ineos want to compete again in the coming years to win the Tour de France, they need to sign Roglic. Also, Roglic himself will only have one goal in those coming years & that's to win the TdF. Ineos might even pay him more but in his opinion, Roglic should choose whichever team offers more support with the riders around him & according to Bruyneel, it's Ineos.

 

[CyclistAbi]

If you want to win a proper Tour edition you usually need to make some big sacrifices. For JV the sacrificial lamb was Roglič. And i must say that they treated him rather badly. Anyway. That is on why when you stand up there. As winner. You know you had to give up something in order to be there. They won the Tour and they lost Roglič. You can't have it all. That is the nature of this sport. For a while likely they will all pretend. After that time to go separate ways.

P.S. I heard that Pidcock needs a mentor.

 

[bNator]

If you want to win a proper Tour edition you usually need to make some big sacrifices. For JV the sacrificial lamb was Roglič. And i must say that they treated him rather badly. Anyway. That is on why when you stand up there. As winner. You know you had to give up something in order to be there. They won the Tour and they lost Roglič. You can't have it all. That is the nature of this sport. For a while likely they will all pretend. After that time to go separate ways.

P.S. I heard that Pidcock needs a mentor.

I think you are doing a disservice to both Primož and yourself with posts like that. You present a thesis and then refuse to support it with any argument.

I’m a big fan of him as well but I refuse to see him as a sacrificial lamb… how did they sacrifice him? He helped his team once he saw he had no chances himself. It was a noble thing to do but sacrifice - that is a strong word… after all, it was his choice to stay in the race, wasn’t it?

Could TJV have done more to prevent his crash on stage 5? Possibly, but that would mean screwing Vinge. They sent guys back for Jonas just as they sent guys back for Roglic once he crashed. We could argue that sending 3 guys back for Roglic was screwing Jonas by increasing his chances for a crash if we were to apply the logic you are using…

 

[CyclistAbi]

@bNator

You can't have your cake and eat it.

 

[bNator]

@bNator

You can't have your cake and eat it.

I’m not sure how to translate that to our situation. Care to help?

 

[FroomeWagon]

If you want to win a proper Tour edition you usually need to make some big sacrifices. For JV the sacrificial lamb was Roglič. And i must say that they treated him rather badly. Anyway. That is on why when you stand up there. As winner. You know you had to give up something in order to be there. They won the Tour and they lost Roglič. You can't have it all. That is the nature of this sport. For a while likely they will all pretend. After that time to go separate ways.

P.S. I heard that Pidcock needs a mentor.

I understand your point ... not everyone can win and sometimes teammates have to sacrifice for the good of the team and the team goals. However, that doesn't mean that Roglic needs to be put into that position again next year (maybe that is the point you are making.) Vingegaard is clearly now the team leader and Roglic will always be sacrificed for Vingegaard if need be. If Roglic wants to be the team leader for the TDF, he needs to leave JV after this season.

 

[Luthor]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551633300627783682

View: https://twitter.com/Debby_Drckx/status/1551633300627783682

 

[IndurainsTdF1994]

Is this why all the rumors about Adam Yates leaving IG are floating around? It would be a tasty tour, definitely tastier than just JV vs. Pogi. But maybe the UAE oil money will be better spent than last year(s). Hirschi, Soler lol.

 

[Gargamel35]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551633300627783682

View: https://twitter.com/Debby_Drckx/status/1551633300627783682

I would punch all "he should ride and help, he was fine" idiots in the face. Twice.

 

[IndurainsTdF1994]

I would punch all "he should ride and help, he was fine" idiots in the face. Twice.

In the case of George Hincapie, this is likely due to the years of abuse he has been suffering. Poor guy.

 

[Luthor]

Is this why all the rumors about Adam Yates leaving IG are floating around? It would be a tasty tour, definitely tastier than just JV vs. Pogi. But maybe the UAE oil money will be better spent than last year(s). Hirschi, Soler lol.

From what I understand Yates might return to BEX. Carapaz also leaves to EF. It is kinda striking these guys are leaving Ineos, isn't it?
I think people overestimate the support Ineos would give to Roglic. They are a British-centric team and Pidcock is their golden boy. He and Geraint would never work for Roglic. Reminder that G said he doesn't want to work for anyone anymore, he got to the point where he only wants to ride for himself. Castro didn't look good at all lately, Van Baarle goes to TJV. With Bernal we might actually get a rivalry, he is not gonna sacrifice for Roglic easily. The only guy I would trust is Martinez but I can see Ineos pairing Bernal and Martinez again for Giro and leaving Roglic alone for Tour.

I would punch all "he should ride and help, he was fine" idiots in the face. Twice.

Including those two possible "future" teammates from Ineos, Geraint and Rowe who criticised him on their podcast after he left. Roglic would not be very well welcomed at Ineos by their riders, there are lots of big egos there.

 

[VeloMaster]

From what I understand Yates might return to BEX. Carapaz also leaves to EF. It is kinda striking these guys are leaving Ineos, isn't it?
I think people overestimate the support Ineos would give to Roglic. They are a British-centric team and Pidcock is their golden boy. He and Geraint would never work for Roglic. Reminder that G said he doesn't want to work for anyone anymore, he got to the point where he only wants to ride for himself. Castro didn't look good at all lately, Van Baarle goes to TJV. With Bernal we might actually get a rivalry, he is not gonna sacrifice for Roglic easily. The only guy I would trust is Martinez but I can see Ineos pairing Bernal and Martinez again for Giro and leaving Roglic alone for Tour.


Including those two possible "future" teammates from Ineos, Geraint and Rowe who criticised him on their podcast after he left. Roglic would not be very well welcomed at Ineos by their riders, there are lots of big egos there.

And little Tommy P, too!

 

[Tonton]

Vingegaard has won Le Tour, Van Aert showed GC potential and more, I think that Roglic needs to find HIS team. Ineos? The pieces are there. Geraint showed that he can't compete against Pog and Vingo. Carapaz? He would have been dismantled by the two, fighting for third against his teammate. Bernal? I don't think so. Roglic can.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Including those two possible "future" teammates from Ineos, Geraint and Rowe who criticised him on their podcast after he left. Roglic would not be very well welcomed at Ineos by their riders, there are lots of big egos there.

Which episode / what’d they say? Seems like poor form

 

[Luthor]

Vingegaard has won Le Tour, Van Aert showed GC potential and more, I think that Roglic needs to find HIS team. Ineos? The pieces are there. Geraint showed that he can't compete against Pog and Vingo. Carapaz? He would have been dismantled by the two, fighting for third against his teammate. Bernal? I don't think so. Roglic can.

Van Aert has no chance for winning GC, at best he can top10, his own trainer said that. He needs to drop a lot of kilos but I don't think he wants that. One of the tactical consultants from Jumbo said that the team should not underestimate Pog and the 1-2 strategy is still the best option. There are lots of bad things that can happen to Jonas from crashes to covid, there should always be a plan B and WvA ain't it, Kruiswijk either. I don't see Jumbo trusting Kelderman for TdF. Jonas won le Tour because they managed to crack him on Granon, without Roglic there is no assurance that happens. UAE next year will probably bring a better team and Pog is gonna ride smarter.

Which episode / what’d they say? Seems like poor form

I've seen on reddit and the commentator from Eurosport mentioned it. Google also found a reference on a Danish site: https://www.feltet.dk/nyheder/thomas_og_rowe_revser_roglics_tour-forladelse/ Since this article is 19 July I'm guessing it's the episode from 18 July.

Google translate from that site:

Rowe:

"The moment you know that Vingegaard is the strongest rider of the race. The race's strongest guy in the yellow jersey. If you're teammates with him, no matter how *** up you are, if you have a broken bone, no matter what, you keep going until you physically can't keep going,” says Rowe, before continuing:
“Even if all you can do from now until Paris is pick up cans once. It's one bottle run that someone else doesn't have to do. You cover an attack. You pull for two kilometers. Anything you can add is beneficial.”

Thomas:

"I totally agree. That's what makes me think, there's got to be more to it. There's probably more to it. I don't know. Because the day before, he split the group up on that climb. He took a violent leadership."

As I said, Roglic does not have a lot of friends at Ineos, these are the only guys in the peloton who actually went out and criticized the decision. Hincapie and Pippa York are irrelevant anyway.

I think people who think Ineos move is a good one from a performance perspective are kinda naive and probably haven't followed Ineos enough. All you have to do is to think about the last 2 Vueltas and what a clusterfuck that team can be.