Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Extinction]

Yes, of course it is more difficult to do the Giro-Tour double, but at least he has a chance to be at the start of the Tour in good shape. Also, there is more time between the end of the Giro and the start of the Tour then between the end of the Vuelta and the start of the Worlds (I do not know if this is good or bad).

There must be a reason why nobody since Pantani in 1998 has won both the Giro and Tour during the same year, clinical issues aside. This is because Pantani rode on "sensations" and could bring himself into top shape when he "felt" it. By contrast, today's cycling is so scientific in the preparation for peaks and targets, that the Tour contenders training and racing with that goal alone, reach level of fitness and performance that anybody who has done the Giro first can't get to in time for the Tour.

Whereas many cyclists have used the Vuelta as a trampoline for conquering Worlds, since It was moved to late August in 1995. And doing back to back GTs is incomparable to using a GT to peak for a one day race. This is why I stand by my first post. It's not that Roglic can't arrive at the Tour in good shape, just not in good enough shape to go for anything but a stage win from the break in the mountains, which would totally go against Jumbo-Visma's plan to win number 2 with Vingegaard.

PS: The only way I can see Roglic as going for more at the Tour, is if he does the Giro only as preparation for the Grand Bouclé, like Ullrich did in the ill-fated 2006 campaign, but Primoz won't be doing that.

 

[Eeslliw]

He's promoting something, but at least it's a Rogla video eh

https://twitter.com/x/status/1630250918217408512

View: https://twitter.com/JumboVismaRoad/status/1630250918217408512

He couldn't sell glasses to a blind man .

 

[Red Rick]

He couldn't sell glasses to a blind man .

I mean it would be impressive if he could

 

[Divergence]

There must be a reason why nobody since Pantani in 1998 has won both the Giro and Tour during the same year, clinical issues aside. This is because Pantani rode on "sensations" and could bring himself into top shape when he "felt" it. By contrast, today's cycling is so scientific in the preparation for peaks and targets, that the Tour contenders training and racing with that goal alone, reach level of fitness and performance that anybody who has done the Giro first can't get to in time for the Tour.

Whereas many cyclists have used the Vuelta as a trampoline for conquering Worlds, since It was moved to late August in 1995. And doing back to back GTs is incomparable to using a GT to peak for a one day race. This is why I stand by my first post. It's not that Roglic can't arrive at the Tour in good shape, just not in good enough shape to go for anything but a stage win from the break in the mountains, which would totally go against Jumbo-Visma's plan to win number 2 with Vingegaard.

PS: The only way I can see Roglic as going for more at the Tour, is if he does the Giro only as preparation for the Grand Bouclé, like Ullrich did in the ill-fated 2006 campaign, but Primoz won't be doing that.

I think the main challenge would be to maintain the form throughout the Tour (if he were to arrive with an excellent form at the start). In any case, the first step is to win the Giro and then we will see. I just hope he gets another real shot at the Tour. Unfortunately, he might need to change teams for that.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I think the obsession with climbing numbers has gotten a bit much. Especially in these grasphs where often a riders best performances can be days where they got like 5th and the entire field was just super fast, yet their big climbing win is somehow a weak performance. And it completely misses strategy as well. And it gets super silly when you start including consecutive climb in one trendline. And it has a huge bias to super low altitude climbs.

TDF 2022 stage 11 will always be more than just mere numbers. You can punch some numbers in. But that only scratching the surface.

 

[Red Rick]

TDF 2022 stage 11 will always be more than just mere numbers. You can punch some numbers in. But that only scratching the surface.

Vingegaards numbers that day are still very impressive. But the effect of fatigue and pacing on climbs is very hard to estimate. Especially with different degrees of recovery. Like I don't know if recovery between climbs gets much easier if they drop down below 1000m in altitude or not.

Pacing really matters, and I think all of the big climbs were done with a very negative pacing strategy, so I think that brings climbing times down considerably. Vingegaard was doing absurd numbers after attacking on Granon and Hautacam.

 

[Extinction]

I think the main challenge would be to maintain the form throughout the Tour (if he were to arrive with an excellent form at the start). In any case, the first step is to win the Giro and then we will see. I just hope he gets another real shot at the Tour. Unfortunately, he might need to change teams for that.

I'd be happy to see the greats going for the Giro-Tour double, but in today's cycling and the fact that the Tour is a sponsorship revenues hog, it's just so damn hard. Although I want the Pogacar's, the Vingegaard's and the Evenepoel's to attempt it at least once in their careers. Wishfull thinking? Is their the courage and the audacity to do so any more? That's why if Roglic goes for it this your, only chapeau.

 

[Red Rick]

I'd be happy to see the greats going for the Giro-Tour double, but in today's cycling and the fact that the Tour is a sponsorship revenues hog, it's just so damn hard. Although I want the Pogacar's, the Vingegaard's and the Evenepoel's to attempt it at least once in their careers. Wishfull thinking? Is their the courage and the audacity to do so any more? That's why if Roglic goes for it this your, only chapeau.

I feel it's the thing you do when you dominate the Tour years in a row, not when you're trying to get your title back.

 

[Netserk]

I feel it's the thing you do when you dominate the Tour years in a row, not when you're trying to get your title back.

Or when you are Robo-Basso.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Red Rick

This is a nice example on where people obsessed only with numbers fail to see the bigger picture. Tactics played just as big role as watts.

The principle used was rather simple. Numbers game. If you for example read what Mohorič said after his last race. Where two JV riders used numbers game on him. On how his legs were gone. Closing the last attack just before the ultimate attack. On a short piece of a flat road. Now put that into context. Where Rogla and Jonas started with that early and prior to the climb. And after Rogla going all out and Pogi covering the attack. Then it was over. The legs were gone. Not much you can do about it anymore. As some tend to forget Rogla is on the same climbing level as Pogi or Jonas. Some tend to feel Rogla is way below that. But that is not true.

Pogi is rather predictable in his stance to always attack. That is on why this tactic worked flawlessly. As JV could exploit something predictable.

Next time in such situation. If it would occur. For the three musketeers to meet again. What Pogi can do, realizing the duo is too strong, is to live to fight another day. And to let one go. Eliminating the numbers advantage for the remainder of the race. He should likely test and do that early. And that would in my opinion make Tour 2023 rather exciting. Compared to the pure watts game.

P.S. Pure watt race is something i expect to see at PN.

 

[King Boonen]

I feel it's the thing you do when you dominate the Tour years in a row, not when you're trying to get your title back.

Or if you know your days on top are gone, but still need to generate headlines.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Roglic has finished two GTs back to back once when he was younger and not as beat up/injured. He also went from Tour to Vuelta and Giro to Vuelta in the two times he’s completed two GTs in the same year, instead of Giro to Tour which is a lot harder to pull off.

Still. If you have to pick one. He has the best track record among all active riders. So in last four years Rogla had two successful attempts in securing a podium position on two GT's in the same season. One year he only won one GT plus had assisted crash on a second GT. Statistically indeed 2022 was the worse, as he didn't win a GT. Still he ended up participating in two. At the Tour cracked Pogi working with Jonas after an assisted crash prevented him to achieve more. Then went to Vuelta and managed to be the only rider that cracked Evenpoel climbing. Assisted crash preventing him to achieve more. So this narrative on how it was ages ago. When Rogla was a factor on two GT's per year. It just doesn't add up. And Horner sees that. It would be hard not to. In such plain sight.

I do agree Giro-Tour double to be the hardest double on paper. And i feel that chances are currently very low. So first doing Catalunya and then Giro. After we'll see on what makes the most sense. my suggestion to JV would be to provide him a good team for Giro. Not just on paper. If they want him at the Tour. The rest is indeed on Roglič.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Or if you know your days on top are gone, but still need to generate headlines.

Selling products and stuff. Nothing really to be ashamed of.

 

[King Boonen]

Selling products and stuff. Nothing really to be ashamed of.

It is literally the point of professional sport, hence why I suggested it.

 

[Netserk]

Or if you know your days on top are gone, but still need to generate headlines.

But the most recent attempts have been because of a possible ban (Froome and Contador in 2011) or just plain dumb (Dumoulin in 2019). I think Contador in 2015 was a mix of being dumb and your point, but after his 2014 season, I don't think your description fully fits.

 

[King Boonen]

But the most recent attempts have been because of a possible ban (Froome and Contador in 2011) or just plain dumb (Dumoulin in 2019). I think Contador in 2015 was a mix of being dumb and your point, but after his 2014 season, I don't think your description fully fits.

It was a simple suggestion of another motivation why people might attempt the double, not an attempt to describe the inner thinkings or every single cyclist who may or may not have considered it/attempted it, so yeah it won't fully fit. I can't remember what Tom said in 2019. I know he came 2nd in both in 2018, so I would say he wasn't yet someone who thought he was past it.

 

[Netserk]

It was a simple suggestion of another motivation why people might attempt the double, not an attempt to describe the inner thinkings or every single cyclist who may or may not have considered it/attempted it, so yeah it won't fully fit.

But we agree that Contador in 2015 is the single best fit for it?

 

[CyclistAbi]

It was a simple suggestion of another motivation why people might attempt the double, not an attempt to describe the inner thinkings or every single cyclist who may or may not have considered it/attempted it, so yeah it won't fully fit. I can't remember what Tom said in 2019. I know he came 2nd in both in 2018, so I would say he wasn't yet someone who thought he was past it.

But the arguments and the possible inner thinking of this individual cyclist don't necessary back your claim or take on it. As this isn't like saying look Pogi, Jonas or Remco will attempt Giro-Tour double in 2023. This after all is Rogla we are talking about.

 

[King Boonen]

But we agree that Contador in 2015 is the single best fit for it?

Off the top of my head, yeah I think so. I'm trying to remember if Froome ever intended to do it after he returned from injury or Thomas ever talked about it. Maybe Bardet last year?

 

[Elos Anjos]

Dumoulin was the closest (2x 2nd Giro and Tour) that we got. And I don't put out that he ends up being the winner after some years.

 

[King Boonen]

But the arguments and the possible inner thinking of this individual cyclist don't necessary back your claim or take on it. As this isn't like saying look Pogi, Jonas or Remco will attempt Giro-Tour double in 2023. This after all is Rogla we are talking about.

Yes, I said it may be the thinking of a cyclist who is past their best and knows they can't win. That applies to Roglic, not the other three.

 

[tobydawq]

Dumoulin was the closest (2x 2nd Giro and Tour) that we got. And I don't put out that he ends up being the winner after some years.

Froome was 1st and 3rd in those races, that's at least equally close.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@King Boonen

Fair enough. You said and that is your opinion. I can cope with that. Although i don't agree with it. Reasons on why provided earlier.

 

[yaco]

There must be a reason why nobody since Pantani in 1998 has won both the Giro and Tour during the same year, clinical issues aside. This is because Pantani rode on "sensations" and could bring himself into top shape when he "felt" it. By contrast, today's cycling is so scientific in the preparation for peaks and targets, that the Tour contenders training and racing with that goal alone, reach level of fitness and performance that anybody who has done the Giro first can't get to in time for the Tour.

Whereas many cyclists have used the Vuelta as a trampoline for conquering Worlds, since It was moved to late August in 1995. And doing back to back GTs is incomparable to using a GT to peak for a one day race. This is why I stand by my first post. It's not that Roglic can't arrive at the Tour in good shape, just not in good enough shape to go for anything but a stage win from the break in the mountains, which would totally go against Jumbo-Visma's plan to win number 2 with Vingegaard.

PS: The only way I can see Roglic as going for more at the Tour, is if he does the Giro only as preparation for the Grand Bouclé, like Ullrich did in the ill-fated 2006 campaign, but Primoz won't be doing that.

Do you realise that Pantani was out of shape in the first week of the 1998 TDF - he'd shipped lots of time on flatter stages and on another stage was minutes behind before the race was neutralised - If this did not happen there was no way he would have won the TDF.

 

[Extinction]

Are you kidding? He crushed Ullrich and everyone on

Do you realise that Pantani was out of shape in the first week of the 1998 TDF - he'd shipped lots of time on flatter stages and on another stage was minutes behind before the race was neutralised - If this did not happen there was no way he would have won the TDF.

Are you kidding? Pantani literally crushed Ullrich and everyone on the mythic Galibier stage. He won the race single-handed there, along with his valiant defense in the TT. Neutralizing the race only prevented him from gaining more time.

And by the way, he and his DS planned for Pantani to arrive at that Tour undercooked and so recovered from the Giro, to then peak again by the Alpes. They executed the plan perfectly. Of course Ullrich neglected to feed himself enough on the Galibier stage, but that's part of cycling too.