Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[VayaVayaVaya]

View: https://youtu.be/F0I4-AGysSg

Apologies if this has already been posted, but Horner takes a strong stance at ~7:20 arguing that Roglic is the clear #2 rider in the world behind Pogacar and ahead of Vingegaard. Does not mention Remco.

 

[Extinction]

View: https://youtu.be/F0I4-AGysSg

Apologies if this has already been posted, but Horner takes a strong stance at ~7:20 arguing that Roglic is the clear #2 rider in the world behind Pogacar and ahead of Vingegaard. Does not mention Remco.

Yep and he said so emphatically too in his analysis of the penultimate TA stage. Well then, after Catalunya-Liege-Giro let's see if he is indeed correct.

 

[acm]

View: https://youtu.be/F0I4-AGysSg

Apologies if this has already been posted, but Horner takes a strong stance at ~7:20 arguing that Roglic is the clear #2 rider in the world behind Pogacar and ahead of Vingegaard. Does not mention Remco.

He knows.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

He knows.

He simply can't pronounce it so he just choses to ignore him.

 

[KZD]

View: https://youtu.be/F0I4-AGysSg

Apologies if this has already been posted, but Horner takes a strong stance at ~7:20 arguing that Roglic is the clear #2 rider in the world behind Pogacar and ahead of Vingegaard. Does not mention Remco.

I mean, we are talking about the knuklehead (to use his favourite expression) that said Van Aert already surpassed Boonen's career achivements...

For him its like 2022 didn't happen, but whether he likes it or not, Vingegård won the Tour in a way that Roglič couldn't and Remco won Liège, the Vuelta and the World Championships. Even if Roglič is still slightly ahead of Remco as a Grand Tour rider, hopefully neither of them has any bad luck at the Giro to sort this out, only one of the them is a World Champion.

Roglič is still clearly a top5 rider in the world but a clear second only on Horner and fanboys minds.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@KZD

I seen some predictions before the racing season started this year. In regards to Rogla and to some extent Pogi. For now, after TA and PN, among all those predictions, Horner is one of the few that got it right. If i remember correctly he already said it at the end of the last season. In one of his videos. But i agree that plenty of racing still ahead this season and best to wait and see on how this season will evolve.

Personally i don't agree with Horner fully as i don't see any special reason on why Roglič would be in the second position in regards to top two places. Likely it has something to do with the fact Roglič DNF the last two Tour editions. Due to getting crashed out. And general public likely started making conclusions Roglič can't win the Tour anymore. And general public didn't stop there. And then bang a hat-trick and TA win.

All in all the road will tell.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Yep and he said so emphatically too in his analysis of the penultimate TA stage. Well, then, after Catalunya-Liege-Giro let's see if he is indeed correct.

Like anyone who espouses emphatic judgment between the top riders, Horner is a bit off base here. But I will join the knuckleheads and put some attempts out there as well.

If I were forced to rank based on palmares, I would go:

1. Pogacar
2. Roglic
3. Vingegaard (because the Tour is so big)
4. Remco (though I could see swapping 3 and 4)

If I were ranking based on who I’d least want to race in any random race pulled out of a hat, including GTs, ITTs, and classics, I’d go:

1. Pogacar
2. Remco
3. Roglic
4. Vingegaard

If I were ranking where I think they’ll end up on the all time rankings when all is said and done I’d also go:

1. Pogacar
2. Remco
3. Roglic
4. Vingegaard

 

[CyclistAbi]

Likely in a year or two this "youngsters" whose predictions might or might not happen will have to deal with ever more younger competition. Lets first see if they will be able to cope. Just as Roglič did and still does. So first things first.

Catalunya.

 

[Extinction]

Like anyone who espouses emphatic judgment between the top riders, Horner is a bit off base here. But I will join the knuckleheads and put some attempts out there as well.

If I were forced to rank based on palmares, I would go:

1. Pogacar
2. Roglic
3. Vingegaard (because the Tour is so big)
4. Remco (though I could see swapping 3 and 4)

If I were ranking based on who I’d least want to race in any random race pulled out of a hat, including GTs, ITTs, and classics, I’d go:

1. Pogacar
2. Remco
3. Roglic
4. Vingegaard

If I were ranking where I think they’ll end up on the all time rankings when all is said and done I’d also go:

1. Pogacar
2. Remco
3. Roglic
4. Vingegaard

I think it's silly to make classifications of this magnitude, when there are still many unknowns, this early in the season. It's fr too premature to make declarations. Let's start talking about the matter after the Giro and then the Tour. Now we see Pogacar crushing it again, pretty much as last year, but he's also come out swinging to prove he is still king, despite taking a beating at last year's Tour. So he seems to be making a point, however, will he win a monument, the Tour again, Worlds? Roglic's just won TA, beating Almeida by only 18 secs and winning three stages along the way, which is promising, but due to crashes last season he isn't the "second best rider in the world." In such a classification, you are only as good as your previous year. Vingegaard? Well he's in theory, as last year, building slowly to a super peak at the Tour. We won't know if he will go thermonuclear in July, however, before the Dauphine, so the verdict is still out on his ranking. At any rate, his win at the Tour and, more importantly, the level of his performances on Glandon, Hautacam and the TT Roglic has never reached during his career. And of course Roglic has never won the Tour. So how does that rank things between them? That leaves Remco. Compared to the other three, he has yet to race this season after really specific, altitude preparation, with the intention of starting to show the real stuff of which he is made. Hence it's kind of unfair to be talking about this matter at all, because clearly Evenepoel demonstrated last year that he is worthy of being considered in Knucklehead's ranking, but was not (2022 actually took place, by the way, whether Knucklehead remembers it or not). Valverde certainly thought so. Catalunya should provide the first answers, Liege and the Giro serious indications of his growth and progress from last year (after a first proper season in his legs following the Lombardia accident). At just 23 is he going to make another leap in form, for example? If so and he meets his goals, where does that place him on Knucklehead's list? Does Roglic still hold second place? Considering too that its pretty knuckleheaded to state before the meat of the season is truly underway and primary goals are undertaken that so and so holds this or that ranking.

 

[IndurainsTdF1994]

I mean, we are talking about the knuklehead (to use his favourite expression) that said Van Aert already surpassed Boonen's career achivements...

For him its like 2022 didn't happen, but whether he likes it or not, Vingegård won the Tour in a way that Roglič couldn't and Remco won Liège, the Vuelta and the World Championships. Even if Roglič is still slightly ahead of Remco as a Grand Tour rider, hopefully neither of them has any bad luck at the Giro to sort this out, only one of the them is a World Champion.

Roglič is still clearly a top5 rider in the world but a clear second only on Horner and fanboys minds.

Triggered much? Btw one GT never sorts anything out.

 

[Blanco]

Even if Roglič is still slightly ahead of Remco as a Grand Tour rider

Winning something 3x more means being slightly ahead?

 

[KZD]

Triggered much? Btw one GT never sorts anything out.

But its not one GT is Vingegård's case. He already came second in 2021 when he was the only one dropping Pogačar in the Mont Ventoux. And unlike the narrative that many like to pass saying that Roglič or Van Aert won the Tour for Vingegård,the truth is the strongest in the high mountains and if he was worse than Roglič, Jumbo would never choose him as Tour leader again.

As for Remco, I said that Roglič could still have a better level than him as a GT rider (even though I think they are quite evenly matched, one level below Pogačar and Vingegård) but what he did last year winning a monument, a GT and the World Championships was legendary, so he deserves the respect that many don't give him.

Its hilarious to see how triggered some people get just for saying Roglič is a clear top5 rider in the world but not the second best.

 

[Divergence]

I think it's silly to make classifications of this magnitude, when there are still many unknowns, this early in the season. It's fr too premature to make declarations. Let's start talking about the matter after the Giro and then the Tour. Now we see Pogacar crushing it again, pretty much as last year, but he's also come out swinging to prove he is still king, despite taking a beating at last year's Tour. So he seems to be making a point, however, will he win a monument, the Tour again, Worlds? Roglic's just won TA, beating Almeida by only 18 secs and winning three stages along the way, which is promising, but due to crashes last season he isn't the "second best rider in the world." In such a classification, you are only as good as your previous year. Vingegaard? Well he's in theory, as last year, building slowly to a super peak at the Tour. We won't know if he will go thermonuclear in July, however, before the Dauphine, so the verdict is still out on his ranking. At any rate, his win at the Tour and, more importantly, the level of his performances on Glandon, Hautacam and the TT Roglic has never reached during his career. And of course Roglic has never won the Tour. So how does that rank things between them? That leaves Remco. Compared to the other three, he has yet to race this season after really specific, altitude preparation, with the intention of starting to show the real stuff of which he is made. Hence it's kind of unfair to be talking about this matter at all, because clearly Evenepoel demonstrated last year that he is worthy of being considered in Knucklehead's ranking, but was not (2022 actually took place, by the way, whether Knucklehead remembers it or not). Valverde certainly thought so. Catalunya should provide the first answers, Liege and the Giro serious indications of his growth and progress from last year (after a first proper season in his legs following the Lombardia accident). At just 23 is he going to make another leap in form, for example? If so and he meets his goals, where does that place him on Knucklehead's list? Does Roglic still hold second place? Considering too that its pretty knuckleheaded to state before the meat of the season is truly underway and primary goals are undertaken that so and so holds this or that ranking.

I do not think last year's climbing performances were top notch from anybody. Yes, the Granon and Hautacam stages were hard throughout so the riders were not fresh at the bottom, but still Vinge was 2 min off the best time on Hautacam (and he was paced for much of the way). Therefore, I believe that an in shape Rogla could have easily coped with that tempo and maybe even surpassed it.
As for Remco, he is a very good rider, but he (almost) lost to a Rogla who came to the Vuelta after 3 weeks on the sofa so enough said there.

 

[Extinction]

I do not think last year's climbing performances were top notch from anybody. Yes, the Granon and Hautacam stages were hard throughout so the riders were not fresh at the bottom, but still Vinge was 2 min off the best time on Hautacam (and he was paced for much of the way). Therefore, I believe that an in shape Rogla could have easily coped with that tempo and maybe even surpassed it.
As for Remco, he is a very good rider, but he (almost) lost to a Rogla who came to the Vuelta after 3 weeks on the sofa so enough said there.

Roglic didn't come to the Vuelta off the sofa, winning stage 4 demonstrated that. I don't know when the best time on Hautacam was established, but would be surprised in week three when the legs are much more tired. Vingo's Glandon performance was thermonuclear and I highly doubt the best Roglic could have handled the pace or even the best Pog.

 

[Divergence]

Roglic didn't come to the Vuelta off the sofa, winning stage 4 demonstrated that. I don't know when the best time on Hautacam was established, but would be surprised in week three when the legs are much more tired. Vingo's Glandon performance was thermonuclear and I highly doubt the best Roglic could have handled the pace or even the best Pog.

Rogla won stage 4 because he is a great cyclist. He certainly was not prepared for the Vuelta.

 

[Extinction]

Rogla won stage 4 because he is a great cyclist. He certainly was not prepared for the Vuelta.

He was prepared well enough, but, hey, we get a Giro rematch, so we shall evidently see how great he is.

 

[Divergence]

He was prepared well enough, but, hey, we get a Giro rematch, so we shall evidently see how great he is.

Looking forward to it

 

[Rackham]

Primož Roglič won't be defined by comparisons to other riders. I mean this "versus Evenepoel" conversation is like a 2023 version of 2019's Nibali. Nope, Roglič in terms of legacy exists outside rivalries with his peers.

At a "meta level" he's about overcoming adversity, bouncing back from setbacks again, again & again, following one's own dreams & career path no matter how disadvantageous your own background is (with no clear path towards becoming a pro-cyclist in his case) & maximizing his own potential. As a cyclist, he's an all-rounder ITT specialist with a wicked uphill kick & a total never say die attitude (I mean he literally rode the TdF last year with a broken back).

It's why IMO his Tirreno win is one of the sweetest wins of his career considering where was on the operating table 5 months ago. His season is already a success in that regard. Evenepoel? He could become the greatest cyclist of all time & crush the Giro like it's nothing, yet Roglič would lose absolutely nothing of his own "mythos" as a rider. Nothing would ever be worse than losing the TdF 2020 in those circumstances (in sporting terms when we look back at his career), so whatever happens against Evenepoel or anyone else from here on is just something to look forward to really & not stress over.

Let those wins & defeats come, i.e. it's the Rogla way. Just no bad crashes please.

 

[Extinction]

Primož Roglič won't be defined by comparisons to other riders. I mean this "versus Evenepoel" conversation is like a 2023 version of 2019's Nibali. Nope, Roglič in terms of legacy exists outside rivalries with his peers.

At a "meta level" he's about overcoming adversity, bouncing back from setbacks again, again & again, following one's own dreams & career path no matter how disadvantageous your own background is (with no clear path towards becoming a pro-cyclist in his case) & maximizing his own potential. As a cyclist, he's an all-rounder ITT specialist with a wicked uphill kick & a total never say die attitude (I mean he literally rode the TdF last year with a broken back).

It's why IMO his Tirreno win is one of the sweetest wins of his career considering where was on the operating table 5 months ago. His season is already a success in that regard. Evenepoel? He could become the greatest cyclist of all time & crush the Giro like it's nothing, yet Roglič would lose absolutely nothing of his own "mythos" as a rider. Nothing would ever be worse than losing the TdF 2020 in those circumstances (in sporting terms when we look back at his career), so whatever happens against Evenepoel or anyone else from here on is just something to look forward to really & not stress over.

Let those wins & defeats come, i.e. it's the Rogla way. Just no bad crashes please.

Poetic. Well, then there is the other side of it based on measurable performances. It's prosaico, but less subjective and therefore no less valid.

 

[Rackham]

Poetic. Well, then there is the other side of it based on measurable performances. It's prosaico, but less subjective and therefore no less valid.

Well, if you want hard data, Evenepoel is a lot younger & the most "sticky" performances in terms of collective mindshare will be those in the TdF from next year onwards. It's the biggest race & where he'll face his biggest rivalries. In fact I'd say the biggest one hasn't even started yet (Evenepoel versus Pog).

And that's what my above post relates to when we're talking about Rog, i.e. the everlasting memory of what a rider is worth based on the races he wins, loses, rivalries he faces & behavior he has on the road. There isn't a Evenepoel versus Roglič rivalry IMO & therefor comparisons between them are almost null and void. Who cares? Neither rider will massively impact the legacy of the other. So I don't get why people would want to compare their abilities or rank them on a "best rider in the world" list. It's not about that.

I mean yeah winning the Giro 2023 would be awesome for Roglič but it's not going to define him as a rider.

 

[Extinction]

Well, if you want hard data, Evenepoel is a lot younger & the most "sticky" performances in terms of collective mindshare will be those in the TdF from next year onwards. It's the biggest race & where he'll face his biggest rivalries. In fact I'd say the biggest one hasn't even started yet (Evenepoel versus Pog).

And that's what my above post relates to when we're talking about Rog, i.e. the everlasting memory of what a rider is worth based on the races he wins, loses, rivalries he faces & behavior he has on the road. There isn't a Evenepoel versus Roglič rivalry IMO & therefor comparisons between them are almost null and void. Who cares? Neither rider will massively impact the legacy of the other. So I don't get why people would want to compare their abilities or rank them on a "best rider in the world" list. It's not about that.

I mean yeah winning the Giro 2023 would be awesome for Roglič but it's not going to define him as a rider.

Oh, I agree with your analysis mostly and was only being a bit devious. On the other hand, I disagree that there is no Remco-Roglic rivalry, as this Giro cements it unavoidably.

 

[Gargamel35]

Everybody comparing prime 23 year old prodigy rider with washed out 33 year old guy that crashes all the time proves the point that Roglič is special and simply better. End of story.

 

[pablohidalgo7]

What always despairs me (talking in general not this forum specifically, in fact he is much more underrated in others) is that Roglic, despite his record, always has to prove how good he is due to factors such as age or setbacks, people assume that his level is not as impressive as this rider or that one even though many times we have not. seen what would have happened due to falls and varios problems.
The only empirical reality since 2019 is that he has only lost one stage race on the road without crashes, illnesses or various injuries and that is the 2020 Tour, and he actually got there after a horrible crash in the Dauphiné who had him without training the last weeks of the final preparation.
And by the way, his performance in the 2021 Vuelta is similar as any of Pogacar GT dominant perfomances and only surpassed in the last years by Vingegaard's thermonuclear Tour, but even so we don't know what he would have done without problems in the last two Tours, what we do know It is that all his teammates gave their best versions to date but it is assumed that Roglic would not have also increased his level, especially in 2021, that year in which he was flying, being equal to Pogi in Itzulia but beating im in the TT and also being almost equal in the first two Tour de France stages before his crash, being that the only stage races where they clashed.

 

[Gargamel35]

What always despairs me (talking in general not this forum specifically, in fact he is much more underrated in others) is that Roglic, despite his record, always has to prove how good he is due to factors such as age or setbacks, people assume that his level is not as impressive as this rider or that one even though many times we have not. seen what would have happened due to falls and varios problems.
The only empirical reality since 2019 is that he has only lost one stage race on the road without crashes, illnesses or various injuries and that is the 2020 Tour, and he actually got there after a horrible crash in the Dauphiné who had him without training the last weeks of the final preparation.
And by the way, his performance in the 2021 Vuelta is similar as any of Pogacar GT dominant perfomances and only surpassed in the last years by Vingegaard's thermonuclear Tour, but even so we don't know what he would have done without problems in the last two Tours, what we do know It is that all his teammates gave their best versions to date but it is assumed that Roglic would not have also increased his level, especially in 2021, that year in which he was flying, being equal to Pogi in Itzulia but beating im in the TT and also being almost equal in the first two Tour de France stages before his crash, being that the only stage races where they clashed.

It's because he's not one of them. He's a ski jumper that ended on the bike way too late. And he's Slovenian. And he keeps destroying all forum favourites. And if he doesn't destroy them, but rather destroys himself in another crash, he's still haunting fans of others in their dreams.

I'm kidding. Maybe.

 

[acm]

It's because he's not one of them. He's a ski jumper that ended on the bike way too late. And he's Slovenian. And he keeps destroying all forum favourites. And if he doesn't destroy them, but rather destroys himself in another crash, he's still haunting fans of others in their dreams.

I'm kidding. Maybe.

There's a grain of truth in every joke.