Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

Wat. They're doing their best ever numbers. How are they not 100%

I think Vingegaard non-intentionally peaked for Dauphine, whereas Pog can‘t be top due to prep influenced by wrist injury…

 

[KZD]

It will be a tie after the Tour, but Rogla will go ahead after Vuelta

Even with a stacked peloton its quite possible.

However let's not forget that Tour >> Giro and Vuelta

 

[Oldermanish]

All I want is Pog vs Vinge vs Evenepoel vs Roglic at 100%. It would in theory be a four headed race and open up a lot of possibilities for each rider to try and counter.

Yeah, that would be an interesting dream for the current age. I see Roglic committing to win GTs next year, maybe the year after. What happens to him and the other three after that is a guess. There will also be 4 more young guys that may be pushing them off podiums.

 

[Blanco]

Even with a stacked peloton its quite possible.

However let's not forget that Tour >> Giro and Vuelta

Not >>, but >

 

[Divergence]

Do you actually think that if they thought Roglic had more chance than Vingegaard to win the Tour, they wouldn't have gone with Roglic? I'm trying to understand your logic here.

Some Roglic fans think Jumbo are actively trying to sabotage his career. And I'm just wondering, why? It's like a conspiracy theory, it may sound attractive at first but when you think a little you realize that it's utter nonsense.

To say he had won with more than 50% probability is just completely delusional.

It seems to me that JV is not among the best run teams. They certainly have trouble with balancing Wout's ambitions during the Tour with their GC goal. I believe Rog somewhat reluctantly agreed to do the Giro this year (even though it was questionable if he could even prepare in time because of the surgery) because the team did not want to grant him a spot at the Tour. They were under the impression that Vingo is a better bet for the Tour and probably Vingo expressed his desire to be a sole leader after last year's win. Therefore, they did not want to create even more tension in the team and they simply tossed aside, what I believe is, their best rider. Even so, Rog probably thought that if he could show some good form and some wins before the Tour there would be a possibility to get a spot on the TdF team. He won everything he could, so naturally, he was thinking he had shown enough to be selected. Alas, the team did not select him (again probably not wanting to create any friction) but by doing so they will not win the Tour and (I hope) they will lose their best rider.
Long story short, Jumbo are not actively trying to sabotage Rog, but their ineptitude caused this situation.
Btw, Vingo has every right to have demands but the team should be the voice of reason.

 

[Carols]

It seems to me that JV is not among the best run teams. They certainly have trouble with balancing Wout's ambitions during the Tour with their GC goal. I believe Rog somewhat reluctantly agreed to do the Giro this year (even though it was questionable if he could even prepare in time because of the surgery) because the team did not want to grant him a spot at the Tour. They were under the impression that Vingo is a better bet for the Tour and probably Vingo expressed his desire to be a sole leader after last year's win. Therefore, they did not want to create even more tension in the team and they simply tossed aside, what I believe is, their best rider. Even so, Rog probably thought that if he could show some good form and some wins before the Tour there would be a possibility to get a spot on the TdF team. He won everything he could, so naturally, he was thinking he had shown enough to be selected. Alas, the team did not select him (again probably not wanting to create any friction) but by doing so they will not win the Tour and (I hope) they will lose their best rider.
Long story short, Jumbo are not actively trying to sabotage Rog, but their ineptitude caused this situation.
Btw, Vingo has every right to have demands but the team should be the voice of reason.

Sorry you feel that way. But when you have 3 top riders it's a balancing act JV could end up winning all 3 GTs this year.

 

[CyclistAbi]

A lot of interesting theories involved. The problem is they change as the weather. One day i read on how Jonas will win next 5 editions and the very next day on how Pogi will win it this year. I agree that it's an interesting battle ongoing and cycling fans can continue to enjoy it starting tomorrow.

Personally i follow the "highlights", as for more in depth commitment i don't have the energy ATM. Still feel the Giro and already preparing for Vuelta. But as this is the Tour. You can't completely ignore the Tour. It's the Tour after all. So preparing for Vuetla and some beer and Tour "highlights" are a good mix. And there is a Slovenian competing that will likely win the overall. And the other one likely winning a stage. And the third one likely positioning the sprinter correctly at some point ... In addition i don't have anything against Jonas. So it's a must. To see who will win the holy grail this year.

Anyway. The outcome of the battle in my opinion won't change much or resolve things in regards to internal JV hierarchy when it comes to Tour 2024. That is in either case Rogla will want leadership and dedicated team support. Regardless if other 7 riders in the team will be there for the same reason or not.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaRDOBrk2No


Defending the Giro title in my opinion is a realistic option too. It's Giro. Then maybe to try the Tour or Vuelta. At some point Tour will be on the schedule again. With JV or with some other team. Rogla going for the overall. As for the Vuelta. Rogla took it under his wing and in half a decade made a proper GT out of it. So it's a must. If he manages to win Giro-Vuelta double this year then likely this will be the most successful season for Rogla so far. As for options in regards to potential Giro-Vuelta winner going after the Tour title again in the future. That's a rather rhetorical question in the end.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

A post which got 3 completely disillusioned likes. How?

I liked it for its enthusiasm, and I agree Roglic is underrated because he has often raced hurt. I’m not delusional to say he’d be ahead of these guys, but I think he’d be in the mix, well ahead of Hindley and Yates. When has he been in good shape and healthy and clearly been outmatched by anyone?

Yes, he barely beat G in the Giro but he had a terrible, injury riddled 2022 and had multiple stitches after one of his three crashes and still managed to demolish the final ITT.

A lot of interesting theories involved. The problem is they change as the weather. One day i read on how Jonas will win next 5 editions and the very next day on how Pogi will win it this year. I agree that it's an interesting battle ongoing and cycling fans can continue to enjoy it starting tomorrow.

Personally i follow the "highlights", as for more in depth commitment i don't have the energy ATM. Still feel the Giro and already preparing for Vuelta. But as this is the Tour. You can't completely ignore the Tour. It's the Tour after all. So preparing for Vuetla and some beer and Tour "highlights" are a good mix. And there is a Slovenian competing that will likely win the overall. And the other one likely winning a stage. And the third one likely positioning the sprinter correctly at some point ... In addition i don't have anything against Jonas. So it's a must. To see who will win the holy grail this year.

Anyway. The outcome of the battle in my opinion won't change much or resolve things in regards to internal JV hierarchy when it comes to Tour 2024. That is in either case Rogla will want leadership and dedicated team support. Regardless if other 7 riders in the team will be there for the same reason or not.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaRDOBrk2No


Defending the Giro title in my opinion is a realistic option too. It's Giro. Then maybe to try the Tour or Vuelta. At some point Tour will be on the schedule again. With JV or with some other team. Rogla going for the overall. As for the Vuelta. Rogla took it under his wing and in half a decade made a proper GT out of it. So it's a must. If he manages to win Giro-Vuelta double this year then likely this will be the most successful season for Rogla so far. As for options in regards to potential Giro-Vuelta winner going after the Tour title again in the future. That's a rather rhetorical question in the end.

I love what Roglic has been doing, but Contador and Froome made the Vuelta cool again before Roglic rode it.

 

[VeloMaster]

It should be clear by now, Rogla in this Tour would have meant Jumbo most likely in yellow by Paris with one of their two leaders. Now? Not so much.

 

[theyoungest]

It seems to me that JV is not among the best run teams. They certainly have trouble with balancing Wout's ambitions during the Tour with their GC goal. I believe Rog somewhat reluctantly agreed to do the Giro this year (even though it was questionable if he could even prepare in time because of the surgery) because the team did not want to grant him a spot at the Tour. They were under the impression that Vingo is a better bet for the Tour and probably Vingo expressed his desire to be a sole leader after last year's win. Therefore, they did not want to create even more tension in the team and they simply tossed aside, what I believe is, their best rider. Even so, Rog probably thought that if he could show some good form and some wins before the Tour there would be a possibility to get a spot on the TdF team. He won everything he could, so naturally, he was thinking he had shown enough to be selected. Alas, the team did not select him (again probably not wanting to create any friction) but by doing so they will not win the Tour and (I hope) they will lose their best rider.
Long story short, Jumbo are not actively trying to sabotage Rog, but their ineptitude caused this situation.
Btw, Vingo has every right to have demands but the team should be the voice of reason.

I think you should be careful not to project too much... basically you're filling in all of Roglic' thoughts and emotions, none of which he has actually expressed. You're also making assumptions about the team's motivations they have not actually mentioned. I understand you're disappointed he's not at the Tour, but this is fairytale land.

To say that JV is not among the best run teams is just bogus. What do you really know about the way their team is run anyway? Do you even know who the trainer is for Roglic, for example? Just look at how they're the best team at the Tour again with what many predicted beforehand would be an inferior team to UAE. Pogacar's team isn't a factor at all, Jumbo dictate proceedings.

 

[Red Rick]

Lmao, people are actually watching Pog and Vingegaard obliterating their competition day in and day out thinking "man, this would have been Primoz' year". Guys, your boy just scraped past 37 y.o. Geraint Thomas to win the Giro. Celebrate, don't make fools of yourselves.

What can I say I always rated Geraint Thomas

 

[Netserk]

The Tour is developing very well for Rogla. He should be co-captain next year, that much is clear.

 

[Peter von]

The Tour is developing very well for Rogla. He should be co-captain next year, that much is clear.

yeah, if Pogi wins this year, Jumbo co-captains might come back next year.

 

[Didinho]

yeah, if Pogi wins this year, Jumbo co-captains might come back next year.

With Ayuso and Almeida lining up.

 

[Miha81]

The Tour is developing very well for Rogla. He should be co-captain next year, that much is clear.

Even in regards to Vuelta this is perfect scenario for Rogla. If TDF battle goes deep into 3rd week I simply can not see Pogacar trying to do Vuelta no matter the final result.

 

[Elos Anjos]

It should be clear by now, Rogla in this Tour would have meant Jumbo most likely in yellow by Paris with one of their two leaders. Now? Not so much.

Roglic sacrificed himself tricking Pogacar in the process. He crashed hard and that's why he attacked like that. No way would he do the same had he been perfectly healthy.

 

[Peter von]

Roglic sacrificed himself tricking Pogacar in the process. He crashed hard and that's why he attacked like that. No way would he do the same had he been perfectly healthy.

At least it would be a completely different scenario. It’s not easy setting a stage up where Pogi is isolated, you have a lot of road left to race on and it’s not so steep that draft doesn’t matter very much.

 

[Divergence]

I think you should be careful not to project too much... basically you're filling in all of Roglic' thoughts and emotions, none of which he has actually expressed. You're also making assumptions about the team's motivations they have not actually mentioned. I understand you're disappointed he's not at the Tour, but this is fairytale land.

To say that JV is not among the best run teams is just bogus. What do you really know about the way their team is run anyway? Do you even know who the trainer is for Roglic, for example? Just look at how they're the best team at the Tour again with what many predicted beforehand would be an inferior team to UAE. Pogacar's team isn't a factor at all, Jumbo dictate proceedings.

I understand that none of what I wrote is a certainty, but having been following cycling and in particular Roglic for the last couple of years I formed the opinion I expressed. The major indication was Rog's interview after the Giro where he plainly said he wanted to go to the Tour and the team did not let him do it. Rog never says anything so plainly and the mere fact he said it was quite elucidating.
Regarding Jumbo Visma; Yes, they have had great results, but it is mostly because of the very good riders there are in the team. I can say that the people who are bringing in the sponsorship money and deciding the signings are doing a great job. However, the people in charge of tactics are pretty bad. They cannot control their riders (Wout), the races Wout is supposed to win he never does. they probably cost Rog a Giro in 19, stage 6 at this year's Tour (I mean eve I in front of the TV saw that Pog was not on the limit and the guy in the car was lying to Jonas...).

 

[Rackham]

At least it would be a completely different scenario. It’s not easy setting a stage up where Pogi is isolated, you have a lot of road left to race on and it’s not so steep that draft doesn’t matter very much.

The double tag trick against Pogačar requires a third component, i.e. Wout van Aert. Last year on Granon, Pog wasn't just responding to Rog's attack on the Télégraphe & early slopes of the Galibier, he was responding to the threat of Rog linking up with WvA up the road & getting towed all the way to Granon.

Jumbo basically should have worked harder to keep all 3 of those riders happy last year & from the looks of it their conclusion (i.e. Vinge can beat Pog solo & doesn't need Rog) might have been a bit... premature.

The importance of WvA as a rouleur machine along with the threat of a second GC rider is what destroyed Pog on stage 11 last year.

 

[Peter von]

The double tag trick against Pogačar requires a third component, i.e. Wout van Aert. Last year on Granon, Pog wasn't just responding to Rog's attack on the Télégraphe & early slopes of the Galibier, he was responding to the threat of Rog linking up with WvA up the road & getting towed all the way to Granon.

Jumbo basically should have worked harder to keep all 3 of those riders happy last year & from the looks of it their conclusion (i.e. Vinge can beat Pog solo & doesn't need Rog) might have been a bit... premature.

The importance of WvA as a rouleur machine along with the threat of a second GC rider is what destroyed Pog on stage 11 last year.

Yes Wout as well, and again UAE have a stronger team and can better afford to close down a Wout move or keep a Wout group close enough that a Rogi attack flies past Wout so he can't help downhill and in the valley. it's so tough to make this happen.

question is whether or not it's even possible to keep 3 leaders happy in the same GT. And TdF is too big to ignore for riders of that level. Two is a lot more managable than 3 and I kinda get why they tried to convince Rogli that adding the Giro to his palmares and potentially Vuelta #4 would be great. At least on paper they brought enough roleurs /classics riders to help Wout win stages and to keep Vingegaard safe. It just haven't worked out so far for Wout.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I love what Roglic has been doing, but Contador and Froome made the Vuelta cool again before Roglic rode it.

For sure there is history involved and most of the cycling greats had a relationship with Vuelta. Still Rogla in my opinion can take it further then it was ever done. Fingers crossed!

 

[bNator]

The point is - Vingegaard with just Wout and no Rog (in a form which presents potential threat) has a much more difficult task than with Rog. I still can't see why they wouldn't take him. Even if he was completely off his form, I am convinced he is still more useful than say Kelderman. Though more likely, even off form he's up there with Kuss. If he's in form however, it's a completely different story and he could decide the Tour.

But to take some blame from TJV, they may have just wanted to protect their brand or maybe, they even wanted to protect Roglic from himself. Roglic winning the Vuelta is much more valuable to them than Roglic being relegated to Kuss level domestique, which would also hurt him psychologically.

 

[Divergence]

The point is - Vingegaard with just Wout and no Rog (in a form which presents potential threat) has a much more difficult task than with Rog. I still can't see why they wouldn't take him. Even if he was completely off his form, I am convinced he is still more useful than say Kelderman. Though more likely, even off form he's up there with Kuss. If he's in form however, it's a completely different story and he could decide the Tour.

But to take some blame from TJV, they may have just wanted to protect their brand or maybe, they even wanted to protect Roglic from himself. Roglic winning the Vuelta is much more valuable to them than Roglic being relegated to Kuss level domestique, which would also hurt him psychologically.

So you are saying that a 33 years old world class cyclist does not know what is good for him when he tells his teams he wants to go to the Tour?

 

[Lorzenz08]

So you are saying that a 33 years old world class cyclist does not know what is good for him when he tells his teams he wants to go to the Tour?

The point is - Vingegaard with just Wout and no Rog (in a form which presents potential threat) has a much more difficult task than with Rog. I still can't see why they wouldn't take him. Even if he was completely off his form, I am convinced he is still more useful than say Kelderman. Though more likely, even off form he's up there with Kuss. If he's in form however, it's a completely different story and he could decide the Tour.

But to take some blame from TJV, they may have just wanted to protect their brand or maybe, they even wanted to protect Roglic from himself. Roglic winning the Vuelta is much more valuable to them than Roglic being relegated to Kuss level domestique, which would also hurt him psychologically.

I agree

Also they seem so proud of Vingegaard strength and reliability, they thought it was way more than enough to beat Pogi.

I also feel like they still haven't really digested their last stage defeat at the 2020 TdF. And they're a bit afraid if Roglic would show himself to really strong, and wants to be more than a domestique, they would refuse him to be a co-leader, which in turn might create tensions in the team. And they don't want that.

In 2021 they didn't really know Vingegaard was up to the task, and in 2022 they put Roglic as a co-leader because he was obviously in great form, but I'm sure even then they had apprehensions.

 

[bNator]

So you are saying that a 33 years old world class cyclist does not know what is good for him when he tells his teams he wants to go to the Tour?

I'm not saying that's a fact. It certainly is a possibility... He might not be familiar with Jonas's numbers which might be much higher than Roglas and has an impression he could be competitive while the team believes it's likely he won't be quite up there.