Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[dennisdy]

Listen to the cycling podcast.

In terms of comparing to Remco…interesting that Remco seems much liked by other riders. Rog seems to have pissed off even G. A feat thought impossible.

And we also already have evidence of Remco as a perfect team player: as Ala, ask Gilbert, even this years worlds he attacked on his last legs cuz he knew Pog would follow and wear himself out. Eventually allowing WVA to drop Pog.

Main thing is Rog is saying this after the years of Kuss working for him utterly and completely.

And he would NEVER have beaten Vingo. Never.

He is a pretty boring and limited rider. He is the modern Cadel Evans.

I have lost all respect for him now.

I agree with you about Roglic. He knows that Kuss has been crucial to his success. I predict that he will be on another team next year.

However, there is no way that Remco is "a perfect team player." During stage 13 he completely let down his team. He wasn't injured or sick, but couldn't even manage an average performance. Even when the entire team came back to help him, he couldn't keep up with them! Imagine how devastated they were after all their training to help Remco win the Vuelta! Remco is all about Remco. He isn't able to handle the physical and psychological pressure of the high mountain climbs. It's his Achilles heel and he knows it. He is a great single-stage rider and deserves his world championships, but he's not able to handle the high mountains.

 

[joe_papp]

...No one will remember anything Rog did...

I honestly couldn't even tell you the GT's that Roglic has won without looking them up. Was sure that Thomas had won the Giro this year until I heard everyone saying this week how important Kuss was to Roglic's triumph!

 

[Gargamel35]

Listen to the cycling podcast.

In terms of comparing to Remco…interesting that Remco seems much liked by other riders. Rog seems to have pissed off even G. A feat thought impossible.

And we also already have evidence of Remco as a perfect team player: as Ala, ask Gilbert, even this years worlds he attacked on his last legs cuz he knew Pog would follow and wear himself out. Eventually allowing WVA to drop Pog.

Main thing is Rog is saying this after the years of Kuss working for him utterly and completely.

And he would NEVER have beaten Vingo. Never.

He is a pretty boring and limited rider. He is the modern Cadel Evans.

I have lost all respect for him now.

Oh poopie, stop hating. So boring.

 

[Gargamel35]

No one will remember any specific ride by Roglic.

Remco’s exploits are already etched forever in the annals of cycling history.

And…

He is only 23.

You should really stop trolling, because it's so bad you look idiotic.

 

[Berniece]

What interview? What did he say?

What interview are you talking about? Do you have a link?

I've only seen one where he says he's the first one who'd like to see Kuss take it... he may have been dishonest, but certainly not despicable?

Despicable? Really? I guess if it's not Evenepoel you're allowed to say whatever you want about the guy.

I read this interview, it’s in Dutch. Where he says sure we’ll keep Kuss in the red but I have my own thoughts about that. So basically saying he doesn’t think Kuss should keep the red jersey like this.

I find him despicable, although maybe too strong of a word choice, because Roglic literally won 2 GT’s thanks to Kuss, that he would have lost without Kuss. And personally he wouldn’t want Kuss to win it like this. Personally he would want to be able to attack him and take over the jersey if he’s stronger, from a teammate…

 

[Nick2413]

No one will remember any specific ride by Roglic.

Remco’s exploits are already etched forever in the annals of cycling history.

And…

He is only 23.

You should really stop trolling, because it's so bad you look idiotic.

I think somebody got into the booze cabinet

 

[kn0s]

Oh poopie, stop hating. So boring.

Funny coming from you. Go look at your contributions in the Vingegaard thread.

 

[DNP-Old]

Either he’s trolling or he’s 5 years old, by the looks of it.

Well, sure, this isn’t the most intelligent of discussions, but he does have a point that 99% of Roglic’ victories are hardly memorable and the equivalent of watching paint dry.

 

[Oldermanish]

I think somebody got into the booze cabinet

A few people got into the cheeeep booooozz. Never seen such definitive irritation toward a rider they "didn't know what they won...."

 

[bNator]

C'mon you have to admit the chain drop and TT win was f'ing ridiculous. what i remember from Rog's Vuelta wins -
Pogacar winning 3 stages, going apeshit in 2019
Soler having a meltdown
Primoz losing time in a bad weather stage
Primoz getting outsprinted by Valverde for a mountain finish
Primoz outsprinting Valverde for a mountain finish
The Carapaz stage
Primoz TT i think in his last win, it was flat with a climb at the end
Covadonga of course

So not really that encouraging to be honest

The irony of the situation is you think it’s Roglic who looks bad after people read your post😁

 

[peterfin]

I have a lot of respect for Roglic. He takes his opportunities and was on schedule for a perfect score this year. It's not easy with Vingegaard in the team and with Pogacar as his reference in national media. This year, he had an opportunity to win two GT's and equal the record Vuelta wins of Heras. A late entry of Vingegaard (did he know?) made it difficult but in the end it is Kuss and the team that blocks the opportunity. Of course, Kuss deserves the win for all his work but Kuss is also paid for it. By giving Roglic no opportunity to fight for it, he basically gets the message that Kuss is now equally a leader in the team diminishing his future options further. For Vingegaard, being much younger and having won two TdFs, it's a much easier choice to let Kuss win the Vuelta, knowing that his leadership will not be questioned in the future.

 

[Rackham]

Roglic has the most reason to be upset of all. Who knows who would’ve won between him and Vingegaard, but he still went through with the orders to let Kuss win and is probably a mix of legitimately happy for him and upset he can’t race to his full abilities. Being semi-open about that in an interview is a breath of fresh air and it’s hardly a scandalous thing to say.

Roglič did say after the Giro he had no reason to leave Jumbo Visma... as long as they support him in his objectives.

This Vuelta was clear evidence to the contrary. The tactics were awful. His advantage gained on the road was undermined by decisions from the team car who engineered a strategy which put Kuss & then Vingegaard above him in GC. Add the human factor on top (I honestly don't see how he can ever race with Vingegaard ever again considering what happened here), it seems like Jumbo have ruined the relationship with their most iconic rider & pretty much symbol of the team. He was the guy who made modern Jumbo serial winners. Wout van Aert & Vingegaard came after.

No one will remember any specific ride by Roglic.

Remco’s exploits are already etched forever in the annals of cycling history.

And…

He is only 23.

This is because you have Remco Evenepoel's face printed on your bed cover, your pillows & even your dinner plates.

Most normal cycling followers don't. So do try to keep an open mind here, thanks.

 

[meat puppet]

This exactly.
Niermann is to blame the most, he just couldn't handle the situation, and obviously was on Vingegaard's boat.

There is an obvious rivarly going on about next year's TDF leadership. Vinge and Rog both wanted to collect bargaining chips during the Vuelta (the ability to say "Look, I won two GTs and BTW beat the other guy to boot - I'm the leader").

The mixed leader model is way too big a risk, that much is now certain. So, assuming you get paid to make results as DS, who do you side with?

For someone who has been called stupid, incompetent, and worse, Niermann did quite alright the past two seasons.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Listen to the cycling podcast.

In terms of comparing to Remco…interesting that Remco seems much liked by other riders. Rog seems to have pissed off even G. A feat thought impossible.

And we also already have evidence of Remco as a perfect team player: as Ala, ask Gilbert, even this years worlds he attacked on his last legs cuz he knew Pog would follow and wear himself out. Eventually allowing WVA to drop Pog.

Main thing is Rog is saying this after the years of Kuss working for him utterly and completely.

And he would NEVER have beaten Vingo. Never.

He is a pretty boring and limited rider. He is the modern Cadel Evans.

I have lost all respect for him now.

There are much more elegant, subtle, smart ways to troll. This is not even fun.

Choo! Off you go.

 

[theyoungest]

Roglič did say after the Giro he had no reason to leave Jumbo Visma... as long as they support him in his objectives.

This Vuelta was clear evidence to the contrary. The tactics were awful. His advantage gained on the road was undermined by decisions from the team car who engineered a strategy which put Kuss & then Vingegaard above him in GC. Add the human factor on top (I honestly don't see how he can ever race with Vingegaard ever again considering what happened here), it seems like Jumbo have ruined the relationship with their most iconic rider & pretty much symbol of the team. He was the guy who made modern Jumbo serial winners. Wout van Aert & Vingegaard came after.

You were convinced of this narrative even before the Vuelta started. Heck, even before the Tour started. It's just your personal idea (like it is for most avid Roglic fans) that once he leaves Jumbo the heavens will open up and he'll win every race he desires. And he'll suddenly ride less conservatively so he'll actually take a race by the scruff of the neck. Because it's Jumbo's fault he rarely attacks.

I don't see it. Because of course it's the Tour he still wants, and he's not going to win the Tour on Lidl or on Bahrain or whatever. Even if he does attack early (very counterintuitive for him) where's he going to go? Sepp Kuss certainly will have no qualms chasing him

That doesn't mean that it couldn't be good for him to leave, just to have a new environment, newfound motivation, and the feeling that there isn't a co-leader at least as strong as him. But as far as actually winning the Tour goes, no, it's not going to help him.

 

[theyoungest]

I honestly couldn't even tell you the GT's that Roglic has won without looking them up. Was sure that Thomas had won the Giro this year until I heard everyone saying this week how important Kuss was to Roglic's triumph!

Then get out of the Roglic thread... I mean, I don't know anything about gymnastics, so I won't post in a Simone Biles discussion. Makes sense, no?

 

[Cookster15]

Right. Cuz he will never win the Worlds. So we do not want to go there.

I literally cannot remember anything of Rog’s three Vuelta wins. Other than when someone else was saving his ass against Carapaz.

As for this years giro, I cannot remember anything but Remco’s amazing dominant first ITT win and the fact that the shoe-in Giro winner had to leave nine days in while wearing the pink jersey.

I cannot remember anything Roglic has done. Nothing. He is forgettable the way he rides is forgettable.

Bwahahaha.

Such an unnecessary comment. I am neither a Remco or Roglic fanboy. But I prefer Roglic. I know all about Remco’s incredible worlds win but I still prefer Roglic as a rider. He also seems more humble. These are matters of opinion. I will try to respect others opinions even if I disagree.

 

[Rackham]

I think it's much easier if you ride against Pogacar. Strongest man wins. Either Roglic isn't good enough to be close and Adam Yates' himself to 3rd place or he's close enough to potentially benefit from team tactics.

I really don't see his TdF odds improving at all by leaving.

But this Vuelta is pretty much proof there's no avenue for him with Vingegaard in the team. Take the Tourmalet stage for example (before SHTF on stage 16): Jumbo's DS's came up with the theory Rog should only attack in the final km. So they orchestrated attacks in 3 waves: first Vinge, then Kuss, then Rog. Who lost most time? Rog.

This was repeated on stage 16's surprise attack where whatever happened with the last minute decision making (which was outside of pre-stage planning) was based on the same concept, i.e. Vinge can go whenever, even at the risk of screwing Roglič tactically. Which is exactly what happened. They threw away his lead in GC to the point if anything happened to Kuss (crash, misfortune, crack), Vingegaard would collect.

This is not okay. If Rog cannot jump on Vinge's wheel when he attacks because of "muh team tactics", then he's screwed. I mean some people even maliciously presumed he couldn't follow on that cat 2 on Tuesday, i.e. something emphatically disproven the following day.

And then there's a broader conversation required here:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1702367338153255209

View: https://twitter.com/nealrogers/status/1702367338153255209


Seriously, since when is a domestique 'protected' by worldwide media when he's got the jersey? What is going on here? I mean I like Kuss but the demonization of Roglič (& to a lesser degree Vingegaard, who seems to have a PR firm working overtime to spin his actions into a bike version of Mother Teresa, for example Benji Naesen) is also... not okay.

The tactics employed by Niermann & Reef haven't at a single moment benefitted Rog in this race. I was even still 'on the fence' until I saw that headline yesterday in which Kuss said the agreement on the Angliru was to ride defensive. I mean WTF! If Vinge gets to ride up the road when he's a minute behind in GC, why not Rog?

I also wonder whether this sets a precedent for future GT's when a dom gets ahead of his leader in a breakaway or split in the bunch. Are we going to see the cycling press bully the team leader(s) like in this Vuelta?

What a sh*t GT. But hey, at least he won the Angliru.

 

[RedheadDane]

The tactics employed by Niermann & Reef haven't at a single moment benefitted Rog in this race. I was even still 'on the fence' until I saw that headline yesterday in which Kuss said the agreement on the Angliru was to ride defensive. I mean WTF! If Vinge gets to ride up the road when he's a minute behind in GC, why not Rog?

I may have misheard it - had a bit of a headache yesterday - but I definitely heard what Kuss said after the stage yesterday as (basically, can't remember the exact words): "Today we all rode according to plan, and so we did yesterday."
As in, the plan on the Angliru stage was that they should all ride full, and not wait.

 

[Lequack]

Primoz Roglic: "It's hard not to be able to win"

Article in French:

Vuelta. Tour d'Espagne - Primoz Roglic: «C'est dur de pas pouvoir jouer la gagne»

Pour la première fois depuis le départ de cette 78e édition de La Vuelta, la Jumbo-Visma a couru sur la défensive. En effet, on a bi

www.cyclismactu.net

 

[Rackham]

I may have misheard it - had a bit of a headache yesterday - but I definitely heard what Kuss said after the stage yesterday as (basically, can't remember the exact words): "Today we all rode according to plan, and so we did yesterday."
As in, the plan on the Angliru stage was that they should all ride full, and not wait.

I'd hope so.

I find this babysitting of Kuss by the media a bit difficult to stomach. I mean I get it, he's a nice guy.

But Roglič prepared for months for the Vuelta after being told he couldn't go to the Tour. He's better than Kuss. I know Chris Horner, Bruyneel & co (and since when are these guys the voices of cycling?) got mad that their ancient sacred rules were transgressed but they have no idea what goes on inside Jumbo.

If Roglič isn't allowed to win on the Angliru (or push to the max to show his strength) when he's third in GC over a minute down, then he might as well just step off the bike.

 

[Blanco]

There is an obvious rivarly going on about next year's TDF leadership. Vinge and Rog both wanted to collect bargaining chips during the Vuelta (the ability to say "Look, I won two GTs and BTW beat the other guy to boot - I'm the leader").

The mixed leader model is way too big a risk, that much is now certain. So, assuming you get paid to make results as DS, who do you side with?

For someone who has been called stupid, incompetent, and worse, Niermann did quite alright the past two seasons.

Look Roglic isn't stupid, he knows he can't be a main leader over guy who won the last two editions of the Tour, but won't go as domestique either. He just want a clean shot, a protected status. He knows he'll be lower in the hierarchy, but wants to be sure he will not need to work for him.
At this Vuelta, he and Vingegaard were co-leaders, equal. What pissed him off is that he played strictly by the plan, but Vinge didn't, and Niermann had a significant role in the latter.
I didn't say Niermann is stupid and all that, but he evidently allowed bad blood among the two main riders to be made, he didn't handle it properly.
He has results, I agree, but it is kind of difficult not to have when you have hands-down the strongest riders at his disposal.

 

[SHAD0W93]

I mean, they do have a point. Why is the undisputed leader of the team and second overall pulling while Roglic isn’t, nor did he respond to anything.

People complain about Vinge’s attack screwing Roglic but it was either that or Vinge paces which isn’t happening. It’s not their fault no one responded to the attack. Roglic tried later and didn’t go anywhere. Vinge is also getting hate for coming back to Roglic on stage 6 and 17 but he sat on Mas and Kuss wheel who brought him back to Roglic.

The biggest things that went against Roglic was Kuss gaining all that time and not cracking, not gaining the time he could have to increase his gap over Vinge, and Evenepoel’s form being all over the place. If he was in red instead of Kuss, Kuss is working for him and Vinge doesn’t attack.

 

[Rackham]

I mean, they do have a point. Why is the undisputed leader of the team and second overall pulling while Roglic isn’t, nor did he respond to anything.

Vingegaard was working on his public relations image yesterday. Roglič just didn't give a sh*t anymore. That's how I see it.

And the damage done by Vingegaard was on stage 16 with his surprise, unplanned attack on Bejes. Rog losing his second spot in GC there must have been maddening (& seeing Vinge move within 30 seconds of the jersey).

So the Angliru happened.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I have lost all respect for him now.

You can't lose any respect if you don't have it in the first place.