Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Blanco]

If it weren't for Niermann, Kuss wouldn't even have been riding for Jumbo. He "discovered" him. If it weren't for Niermann's tactics, Kuss wouldn't even be in the red jersey. If it weren't for Niermann, right now Kuss wouldn't be in red anymore either.

It's just ridiculous to attribute every good result to the riders themselves, and every struggle to the DS. Especially, as I say, in the case of Sepp Kuss. But Roglic fans are also pretty good at that.

Did I say anything about Sepp Kuss?
Feud was between Roglic and Vingegaard, and I think you very well know this. Sepp Kuss was just collateral.

 

[meat puppet]

Look Roglic isn't stupid, he knows he can't be a main leader over guy who won the last two editions of the Tour, but won't go as domestique either. He just want a clean shot, a protected status. He knows he'll be lower in the hierarchy, but wants to be sure he will not need to work for him.
At this Vuelta, he and Vingegaard were co-leaders, equal. What pissed him off is that he played strictly by the plan, but Vinge didn't, and Niermann had a significant role in the latter.
I didn't say Niermann is stupid and all that, but he evidently allowed bad blood among the two main riders to be made, he didn't handle it properly.
He has results, I agree, but it is kind of difficult not to have when you have hands-down the strongest riders at his disposal.

Having a "clean shot" and going in "not as a domestique" actually means joint leadership. I don't think that more of the same but somehow managed better will resolve the core issue, which is the two of them riding against one another. It just kicks the can down the road.

If they decide to go for it, I'm mostly expecting Roglic being left unsatisfied.

 

[theyoungest]

Jumbo just got too ambitious and in the effort to secure victory in one season in all three GTs, they brought Jonas.
My take is that they didn't expect that Roglic and Kuss were already enough to achieve victory. In hindsight, this dominance was already there in the Tour.
Had Jonas didn't come to the Tour, and Kuss and Roglic would sort things out.
Then stage 16 happened and it got obvious to everyone that "sammen winnen" does not apply.
My take is that all DS failed to realize that either they said to Kuss, Roglic and Vingo that the approach was keeping Kuss there or that they had permission to race against each other. They didn't and whoever took the first step had an undeniable advantage by feigning to other teammates that he was playing by the book until he attacked. And although not breaking any "rule" coming from the top, the one who choose to attack would nevertheless break the rule of racing against your teammates. That's why I consider Jonas to be the culprit here as he drew first blood. He leapfrogged Roglic and didn't take the Red Jersey only by chance. When Roglic retires he of course, by the normal course of things, can win a Vuelta. Not with the Slovenian, who is facing his last years.
Finally, there's Kuss. I think it's logical to accept that he if wins the Vuelta it's because of a compromise between a stalemate between Rogla and Vingo. He doesn't deserve to win because it's a way to compensante all his help in previous GTs.

But it's obvious you just can't stand Jonas Vingegaard... IIRC all your posts during the Tour were of a similar nature. So of course you're going to say he's the culprit.

There's nothing wrong with racing for the win. There's also nothing wrong with attacking early and hoping/expecting that the other teams will at least try to bring you back. How on earth could Vingegaard have known that they wouldn't. He didn't even go full gas to the line.

 

[SHAD0W93]

They don't.
He's not the undisputed leader of the team in this race. He's the co-leader.
He is 2nd overall, but does it really matter who pulls, tempo isn't that hard, he won't die there in front. For all we know, he may well wanted to pull, to show himself in better light (likely version), or to redeem himself cause he after all started all this mess (less likely version).

As for Vinge's attack, he didn't need to pace, nor to attack. He could've just watching things from the front, letting others do the work and responding if needed. Then he could've done a late attack, and either he wins or Roglic and everybody is happy. This way look what he has done.
On stage 6, he sat on Mas, then countered and literally he brought Mas to Roglic wheel.

And last, but not the least, I already said this, but I will repeat, he really likes Sepp, and he's glad that he's going to win this, but he's also speaking the truth saying that he would've wanted to win also, which by my opinion isn't something wrong, contrary to Vingegaard who is "all for Sepp now" when the big boss straight things up, but he shipped time from him whenever he could.

I said team, not at this race. As has been said multiple times by others Jumbo showed to favor one rider over the other since 2021.

 

[theyoungest]

There's an article in the Slovenian press which outlines some interesting stuff: https://www.rtvslo.si/sport/kolesar...sarja-naj-znotraj-ekipe-ne-bi-napadali/681490

Apparently it was Zeeman who made the call after the Angliru to freeze GC positions. But one of the major points of contention for Roglič is the fact whenever Vingegaard attacked, he either stayed with Kuss or didn't follow Vinge's wheel, but the reverse wasn't true.

Vingegaard knows he's got freedom in this team because he's the golden ticket in the TdF. He abused of that position IMO & ruined team cohesion here (maybe on purpose in order to get Rog out of the TdF team next year, which wouldn't be surprising considering he's already said he wanted the same team in 2024 as he had in 2023).

And before anyone jumps in & says I'm demonizing the rider here, I'm not. What happened isn't unusual & takes place in other sports as well (like when Sebastian Vettel & Charles Leclerc had issues at Ferrari a few years ago). The younger star always gets way, way more leeway to get whatever he wants.

Ah yes, the very objective Slovenian press

We'll see if Roglic will do at least some work for Sepp Kuss tomorrow. My guess is he won't. It's just not in his nature. I'm not demonizing the rider though.

 

[kn0s]

But it's obvious you just can't stand Jonas Vingegaard... IIRC all your posts during the Tour were of a similar nature. So of course you're going to say he's the culprit.

There's nothing wrong with racing for the win. There's also nothing wrong with attacking early and hoping/expecting that the other teams will at least try to bring you back. How on earth could Vingegaard have known that they wouldn't. He didn't even go full gas to the line.

Just stop. I tried several times to get some real discussion about stage 16, but it's impossible. It's always - it was a steal, sneak attack, sneak attack etc, etc. It's some real Trump stuff.

Only thing I can say is, if the car and Jonas planed out the result, he is going to win every race he ever participate in again, because he is a total genius.

 

[pman]

The amount of vitriol being thrown around is unreal. These guys are going out laying it on the line every day and we're just sitting around attacking them. Clearly Jumbo expected more of a challenge from someone like Remco. They were caught off guard by a few things in this race including the ease of a podium sweep. It's been a tough race but I really think we should back off a bit. I know there's strong feelings but I don't see any right and wrong here. The 3 Jumbo riders have a claim to be mad or feel let down. Crazy grand tour.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

How many leaders in the team this time?

As many as they like, then they can ask Twitter who gets to win.

 

[lenric]

Well, sure, this isn’t the most intelligent of discussions, but he does have a point that 99% of Roglic’ victories are hardly memorable and the equivalent of watching paint dry.

He’s done remarkably well with the tools he has and is one of the most successful GT riders of the past 20/30 years. And that’s all that really matters quite frankly.

 

[Blanco]

Just stop. I tried several times to get some real discussion about stage 16, but it's impossible. It's always - it was a steal, sneak attack, sneak attack etc, etc. It's some real Trump stuff.

Only thing I can say is, if the car and Jonas planed out the result, he is going to win every race he ever participate in again, because he is a total genius.

And why do you think things escalated after that stage? Why not before?
It's clear as a day that something happened on that stage that ruined the team chemistry. If everything was done according to plan and in a proper manner, why the fuss then?

 

[theyoungest]

And why do you think things escalated after that stage? Why not before?
It's clear as a day that something happened on that stage that ruined the team chemistry. If everything was done according to plan and in a proper manner, why the fuss then?

That's not even all that clear, it's more the thousands upon thousands of angry fans online that are really annoyed with how things panned out on those two stages. I think most teams have a point in a race where two riders or more aren't quite seeing eye to eye. That's just normal. Do you always like everyone you work with, and everything they do? That doesn't mean that the entire team chemistry is "ruined" as you would frame it. They're 1-2-3 in the race for crying out loud, and won 5 stages.

The reason that it's so big of an issue is because Jumbo are the only team that really decides what happens in this race. And even then people manage to say that Jumbo somehow have bad management Yesterday Vlasov attacked his teammate Uijtdebroeks. Nobody gives a sh.t, because it doesn't matter for the race.

 

[kn0s]

And why do you think things escalated after that stage? Why not before?
It's clear as a day that something happened on that stage that ruined the team chemistry. If everything was done according to plan and in a proper manner, why the fuss then?

Because people favoring Roglic had a hard time with the end result. There was nothing normal about this result, but instead of seeing that, they see an evil master plan to rob Roglic.

the tactics was absolutely textbook and if the result was, that Jonas made the other guys work, Roglic free wheels and sprints to victory, everything is fine here in Rog thread land.

this was actually the most plausible result, what happened was crazy, you can't plan for crazy.

 

[HelloDolly]

If Sepp Kuss has a bad day today or tomorrow then no one waits ...that is the team orders

There is a difference between not waiting and not attacking red jersey from within his own team esp when said jersey is going well and you are the only one beating him....big difference !!!

 

[Valv.Piti]

If he wins Il Lombardia it would be just perfect.

Unfortunately he will need to be in significantly better shape than the other Slovenian to win the bike race.

Prolly 3rd favorite though

 

[Big Doopie]

Wow. This thread blew up.

What happened…?

 

[veganrob]

As many as they like, then they can ask Twitter who gets to win.

That might be easier than doing a poll here. This is all getting too crazy.

 

[bNator]

Because people favoring Roglic had a hard time with the end result. There was nothing normal about this result, but instead of seeing that, they see an evil master plan to rob Roglic.

the tactics was absolutely textbook and if the result was, that Jonas made the other guys work, Roglic free wheels and sprints to victory, everything is fine here in Rog thread land.

this was actually the most plausible result, what happened was crazy, you can't plan for crazy.

After Jonas dropped all the other teams on Friday for 1 minute, you think that was the most plausible result? What happened on Tuesday was a very similar outcome to what happened on Friday. It was not crazy - it was, in fact, the most plausible result.

 

[Rackham]

If Sepp Kuss has a bad day today or tomorrow then no one waits ...that is the team orders

There is a difference between not waiting and not attacking red jersey from within his own team esp when said jersey is going well and you are the only one beating him....big difference !!!

Once the dust settles & only the most hardcore cycling nerds are left in the conversation, someone, somewhere might point out some incongruities in the coverage (& collective moral grandstanding) of this Vuelta, i.e. UAE & Bora (to name two) have leaders who attack each other all the time - whether in Grand Tours or one day races. They even have it in their contracts (it is believed riders like Ayuso have specified they'll never have to ride for Pog).

It seems surreal to me how Roglič (& I must admit Vingegaard, despite how questionable he was in this Vuelta at times, especially insincerely pretending he wasn't going for GC when he really was on stage 16) were absolutely crucified over the past few days for something which happens elsewhere, often to a far more blatant (& obviously no-sh*ts-given) degree.

I mean reading some of the reactions & seeing the videos on youtube... was mind boggling. For example for the sake of argument, "what if" Roglič was ready to attack yesterday (certainly if he didn't trust Vingegaard anymore)? That's a rhetorical question because based on some of the comments online (& some people even engaging in body language analysis), any uninitiated cycling viewer who is new to the sport might have concluded his behavior was literally against the rules.

I've seen a lot of madness over the last couple of days & I reiterate my point: Vingegaard, Rog & Kuss should have been allowed to battle out there from the moment the team had the top 3 secured. To deny them that chance is to deny the race... a proper race. I mean why should Rog & Vinge ride for Kuss? Who are they protecting him from? He's better than everyone else other than themselves!

The rest is just lunacy (no exaggeration) of people who say he's owed a GT win for a job he's paid to do. Other teams must be laughing their ass*s off at the media sh*tstorm Jumbo got themselves into over a very common norm in cycling, i.e. teammates fighting to win something.

 

[Carols]

Covadonga 2021 was the same as these Remco breakaways you hate so much
And it is FAR FAR FAR below Worlds RR
FAR below Worlds ITT
FAR FAR below LBL
FAR FAR below LBL

LOL Rogla Won LBL!!! Why don't you go troll another thread.

 

[kn0s]

After Jonas dropped all the other teams on Friday for 1 minute, you think that was the most plausible result? What happened on Tuesday was a very similar outcome to what happened on Friday. It was not crazy - it was, in fact, the most plausible result.

What? Getting a minute on a climb like this and absolutely no one that matter chase, was plausible? I don't know how to respond to that. We are in different universes and can learn nothing from each other, the distance is simply to great.

 

[Big Doopie]

LOL Rogla Won LBL!!! Why don't you go troll another thread.

Hmm. You are right.

Weird. I had to look it up.

Do u remember how he did it?

 

[Netserk]

Hmm. You are right.

I had to look it up tho.

Do u remember how he did it? Knowing him, it surely was an exploit dropping everyone from 30 km out at least.

Like a ninja, while a QS clown stole all attention by losing in spectacular fashion. Sounds familiar?

 

[Big Doopie]

Like a ninja, while a QS clown stole all attention by losing in spectacular fashion. Sounds familiar?

Like a Zubeldia?

While two riders were hindered in the sprint?

Memorable. Dominant. An exploit for the history books.

 

[saunaking]

The irony of the situation is you think it’s Roglic who looks bad after people read your post😁

I though i was being nice leaving out his ridiculous response blaming Fred Wright when he crashed himself out of a vuleta he could have won

 

[Elos Anjos]

But it's obvious you just can't stand Jonas Vingegaard... IIRC all your posts during the Tour were of a similar nature. So of course you're going to say he's the culprit.

There's nothing wrong with racing for the win. There's also nothing wrong with attacking early and hoping/expecting that the other teams will at least try to bring you back. How on earth could Vingegaard have known that they wouldn't. He didn't even go full gas to the line.

Of course there's nothing wrong racing for the win. That's what cycling is about if you are one that has the chances to do it and not a domestique.

But if you have 3 riders from the same team in a well established podium then the least it can be said is that every man for himself doesn't seem to aply so straighforwardly.

If you accept that Fisher-Black was the only one able to follow Jonas then you're simply out of your mind. Andthat takes us to acknowledge that Jonas simply broke a code that was there to be tacitally obeyed and he broke it either by himself (while I don't think he has a personality for that) or by following orders from the DS that were not shared with Kuss and Roglic.

Kuss has stated that stage 16 was for Roglic. Roglic could have followed Jonas and perhaps he only attacked when he realized that Kuss protection was gone and he was already being leapfrogged by Jonas.