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Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

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Just stop. I tried several times to get some real discussion about stage 16, but it's impossible. It's always - it was a steal, sneak attack, sneak attack etc, etc. It's some real Trump stuff.

Only thing I can say is, if the car and Jonas planed out the result, he is going to win every race he ever participate in again, because he is a total genius.
You're not even making an argument so stop complaining.
 
Because people favoring Roglic had a hard time with the end result. There was nothing normal about this result, but instead of seeing that, they see an evil master plan to rob Roglic.

the tactics was absolutely textbook and if the result was, that Jonas made the other guys work, Roglic free wheels and sprints to victory, everything is fine here in Rog thread land.

this was actually the most plausible result, what happened was crazy, you can't plan for crazy.
I'm not talking about people/fans/journalists and others. I'm talking about the team. It was evident that something is wrong in the team right after stage 16 ended, and it exploded in the next stage.
 
Of course there's nothing wrong racing for the win. That's what cycling is about if you are one that has the chances to do it and not a domestique.

But if you have 3 riders from the same team in a well established podium then the least it can be said is that every man for himself doesn't seem to aply so straighforwardly.

If you accept that Fisher-Black was the only one able to follow Jonas then you're simply out of your mind. Andthat takes us to acknowledge that Jonas simply broke a code that was there to be tacitally obeyed and he broke it either by himself (while I don't think he has a personality for that) or by following orders from the DS that were not shared with Kuss and Roglic.

Kuss has stated that stage 16 was for Roglic. Roglic could have followed Jonas and perhaps he only attacked when he realized that Kuss protection was gone and he was already being leapfrogged by Jonas.
After the team meeting there's a shadow meeting where Jonas gets his personal tactics and is told to destroy his teammates :) Haha, I'm sorry, but that's just delusional.
 
EDIT: Like many others have said before, I have no problem that Jonas beat Roglic in La Vuelta so far as the same rules applied from the start to both. What all this thread is saying since stage 16 and minding Kuss's red jersey is that there are diferente rules for Roglic and Vingo. EIther by Jonas's own iniative or by DS orders.
 
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You're not even making an argument so stop complaining.
"I tried several times" as in posts I made before both in this thread and in the Jonas thread. Sometimes you see things so diffently that you can't even discuss it, I'm not going to change your mind about what happened on stage 16, and you are surely not convincing me.

For me the tactics employed made perfect sense, as I have see it a million times before. The results though, made very little sense.
In my opinion you see the results and mix it with all you preconceived notions, and then see things I don't see.

I'm here to get challenge in my beliefs and discuss thing to get more knowledgeable, but if we start in different universes, I'm not going to learn anything from you. We need to start closer together, if that makes sense.
 
But the fact that your hate and distrust for that team goes so far as to actually think that... it's just baffling. Why would they do that? What do they stand to gain from it? Apply some logic here.
Goddamit! If Kuss made it public that the stage was for Roglic how do you explain that Vingo attack out of the blue and the bad omen that happened since? Please don't resort to "my friend is in a ,".
 
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"I tried several times" as in posts I made before both in this thread and in the Jonas thread. Sometimes you see things so diffently that you can't even discuss it, I'm not going to change your mind about what happened on stage 16, and you are surely not convincing me.

For me the tactics employed made perfect sense, as I have see it a million times before. The results though, made very little sense.
In my opinion you see the results and mix it with all you preconceived notions, and then see things I don't see.

I'm here to get challenge in my beliefs and discuss thing to get more knowledgeable, but if we start in different universes, I'm not going to learn anything from you. We need to start closer together, if that makes sense.
So you're in a forum and you quit discussing but you nevertheless reply. OK.

The fact that results in stage 16 don't make sense leads one to admit that the attack didn't make sense. All backfired after that and JV was lead to damage control mode. Why do you believe that happened and what is the role of Jonas in that matter?
 
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JV is playing with fire. They are pushing Roglič out of the team so let's say he goes. Kuss will get promoted to GT leader on races without Jonas. That means Jonas looses best domestique there is. And Kuss isn't really a Top GT contender anyway.

Then they are one Jonas injury away from disaster (Ineos). From top flying team to mediocre.
You should watch the 2023 Vuelta.
 
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JV is playing with fire. They are pushing Roglič out of the team so let's say he goes. Kuss will get promoted to GT leader on races without Jonas. That means Jonas looses best domestique there is. And Kuss isn't really a Top GT contender anyway.

Then they are one Jonas injury away from disaster (Ineos). From top flying team to mediocre.
I respectfully disagree with this. It is pretty clear that Roglic and Vinge cannot co-exist on the same team, not as long as Roglic wants to go to the TDF and be a leader. Both of those two deserve to be the sole leader on a team fighting for the TDF GC. There is only one way that will happen, Roglic needs to leave.
 
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I respectfully disagree with this. It is pretty clear that Roglic and Vinge cannot co-exist on the same team, not as long as Roglic wants to go to the TDF and be a leader. Both of those two deserve to be the sole leader on a team fighting for the TDF GC. There is only one way that will happen, Roglic needs to leave.
Roglic for ineos.
Arensman for Jumbo. It would be a nice change for everybody.
Ineos would get a leader with high quality, and jumbo would get another great climber in addition to jorgenson, that will help vingegaard in the mountains.
 
Of course there's nothing wrong racing for the win. That's what cycling is about if you are one that has the chances to do it and not a domestique.

But if you have 3 riders from the same team in a well established podium then the least it can be said is that every man for himself doesn't seem to aply so straighforwardly.

If you accept that Fisher-Black was the only one able to follow Jonas then you're simply out of your mind. Andthat takes us to acknowledge that Jonas simply broke a code that was there to be tacitally obeyed and he broke it either by himself (while I don't think he has a personality for that) or by following orders from the DS that were not shared with Kuss and Roglic.

Kuss has stated that stage 16 was for Roglic. Roglic could have followed Jonas and perhaps he only attacked when he realized that Kuss protection was gone and he was already being leapfrogged by Jonas.
Well put and still seemingly so difficult for current day fandom to fathom. Didn't work for La Vie Claire for very long and never worked for Movistar, Sky....
 
The whole debate is really rather silly, as both Rogla and Jonas said out right they were riding for the overall. Until the team said they are not allowed to do that any more (stage 18).

As for whom the DS has put in a better position on this GT. It's rather obvious they were trying with Jonas more, then Rogla. That is for Jonas to take the jersey. The outcome of this is Rogla and Jonas switched GC places. Now i am rather sure they would do the same at the Tour 2024. If both end up going and to ride for JV. This is just something that Rogla will need to deal with, riding for this team.

Last but not least, lets not forget, he prepared and came for his fourth title, and if he would be sole leader, he would very likely have it in the bag. Instead he finished third. The main reason on why that happened is JV and their decisions. From bringing multiple leaders, waiting for Jonas at TTT, providing more opportunities to take time for Jonas and in the end preventing Rogla to attack Kuss. So the main factor, on why Rogla will likely finish third on this GT is JV.

This is something new. JV being more proactive for Rogla not to win a GT, then to win it.
 
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The whole debate is really rather silly, as both Rogla and Jonas said out right they were riding for the overall. Until the team said they are not allowed to do that any more (stage 18).

As for whom the DS has put in a better position on this GT. It's rather obvious they were trying with Jonas more, then Rogla. That is for Jonas to take the jersey. The outcome of this is Rogla and Jonas switched GC places. Now i am rather sure they would do the same at the Tour 2024. If both end up going and to ride for JV. This is just something that Rogla will need to deal with, riding for this team.

Last but not least, lets not forget, he prepared and came for his fourth title, and if he would be sole leader, he would very likely have it in the bag. Instead he finished third. The main reason on why that happened is JV and their decisions. From bringing multiple leaders, waiting for Jonas at TTT, providing more opportunities to take time for Jonas and in the end preventing Rogla to attack Kuss. So the main factor, on why Rogla will likely finish third on this GT is JV.

This is something new. JV being more proactive for Rogla not to win a GT, then to win it.
UAE had already seen by the top of Tourmalet that they had no chance other than to try to make Roglic and Vingo fight each other (and even then, probably no chance) so when Vingo attacked they all put the brakes on. It was their only chance. Remco dropping out of contention sealed the deal for Sepp, at some point Vingo and/or Roglic would have had to go faster than Sepp could go to respond to a Remco attack and that would have been it.
*this post may contain traces of sarcasm but not the Remco part
 
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Well, there you have it. Halter, Kuss, and Vinge all confirmed that the team and riders agreed prior to Angliru that the three leaders would race it out. I see no reason not to believe them and no reason to say any of them did anything wrong, though I do think some decisions didn’t go Roglic way. After Angliru, they decided Kuss would win and Roglic agreed and let all sources is happy for Kuss even though he’s disappoint for himself.

"We had agreed that we would race for the red jersey, and it was clear that if the other two duel over it, then I also want to be involved. I would have liked that after the rest day, we had not fought for [the red jersey] anymore and had just ridden defensively. But we decided that we should fight for it, so then I was also put in a bit of a difficult situation, I think.

"I would have liked to see that it had been made earlier. It ends up with Sepp still winning – hopefully."
-Vingegaard
 
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