Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[CyclistAbi]

Hopefully Rogla to disregard team orders on stage 20. After JV can fire him. A win to remember. Mostly for people complaining, for not remembering any of the Rogla wins. To now remember one.

On a more serious note. Team should never have allowed it in the first place but once they did they should never have back out. You don't do that to your champ(s). In the future i feel that it will be a much harder place to be, race for JV, as one of the leaders. We'll see.

 

[Rackham]

Hopefully Rogla to disregard team orders on stage 20. After JV can fire him. A win to remember. Mostly for people complaining, for not remembering any of the Rogla wins. To now remember one.

On a more serious note. Team should never have allowed it in the first place but once they did they should never have back out. You don't do that to your champ(s). In the future i feel that it will be a much harder place to be, race for JV, as one of the leaders. We'll see.

Imagine that dark timeline. It would be hilarious, i.e. truly Darth Vader stuff.

But there's also a scenario where Kuss crashes out today (or suffers a mechanical in the final 10km's) & Vingegaard gets the red.

So what would Rog do tomorrow?

The media are so busy deciding who should win this race, they might have forgotten there's still racing to be done (where anything can happen). We'll see. The likelihood is they'll finish in their current positions but bike racing isn't 100% controllable at any given time. It never was.

 

[Blanco]

Listen to the cycling podcast.

In terms of comparing to Remco…interesting that Remco seems much liked by other riders. Rog seems to have pissed off even G. A feat thought impossible.

And we also already have evidence of Remco as a perfect team player: as Ala, ask Gilbert, even this years worlds he attacked on his last legs cuz he knew Pog would follow and wear himself out. Eventually allowing WVA to drop Pog.

Main thing is Rog is saying this after the years of Kuss working for him utterly and completely.

And he would NEVER have beaten Vingo. Never.

He is a pretty boring and limited rider. He is the modern Cadel Evans.

I have lost all respect for him now.

What a bunch of crap!

P.S. You do realize that Roglic and G are literally best friends in Monaco?

 

[theyoungest]

Look Roglic isn't stupid, he knows he can't be a main leader over guy who won the last two editions of the Tour, but won't go as domestique either. He just want a clean shot, a protected status. He knows he'll be lower in the hierarchy, but wants to be sure he will not need to work for him.
At this Vuelta, he and Vingegaard were co-leaders, equal. What pissed him off is that he played strictly by the plan, but Vinge didn't, and Niermann had a significant role in the latter.
I didn't say Niermann is stupid and all that, but he evidently allowed bad blood among the two main riders to be made, he didn't handle it properly.
He has results, I agree, but it is kind of difficult not to have when you have hands-down the strongest riders at his disposal.

If it weren't for Niermann, Kuss wouldn't even have been riding for Jumbo. He "discovered" him. If it weren't for Niermann's tactics, Kuss wouldn't even be in the red jersey. If it weren't for Niermann, right now Kuss wouldn't be in red anymore either.

It's just ridiculous to attribute every good result to the riders themselves, and every struggle to the DS. Especially, as I say, in the case of Sepp Kuss. But Roglic fans are also pretty good at that.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Rackham

As the team ordered it in my opinion both Rogla and Jonas should respect it. That is if Kuss will struggle tomorrow, both Rogla and Jonas should stay with him. Regardless of if they lose the overall or not.

That is Rogla and Jonas can't really win this race any more. The team made sure of that.

 

[burning]

I cannot see Roglic pulling a Cunego and giving a middle finger to Jumbo. I would be happy to be proven otherwise

 

[CyclistAbi]

Yeah, Kuss got this. But if he crashes or struggles on the bike. Both Rogla and Jonas should stay with him. After Benji and Horner and the rest of the mob can analyse it.

We'll see.

 

[Rackham]

@Rackham

As the team ordered it in my opinion both Rogla and Jonas should respect it. That is if Kuss will struggle tomorrow, both Rogla and Jonas should stay with him. Regardless of if they lose the overall or not.

That is Rogla and Jonas can't really win this race any more. The team made sure of that.

What if Sepp Kuss gets dropped tomorrow by UAE, Bahrain & Movistar because he has a bad day on the 'classics' style stage?

Gaps can get quite large on a stage like that. The Superman Lopez meltdown came from a similar type of scenario because the gap got so big & the chase was so futile he lost all hope of a podium. I mean when you miss a split, then 4 minutes isn't much.

 

[CyclistAbi]

What if Sepp Kuss gets dropped tomorrow by UAE, Bahrain & Movistar because he has a bad day on the 'classics' style stage?

Gaps can get quite large on a stage like that. The Superman Lopez meltdown came from a similar type of scenario because the gap got so big & the chase was so futile he lost all hope of a podium. I mean when you miss a split, then 4 minutes isn't much.

In such situation and in my opinion both Rogla and Jonas should stay with Kuss. They really can't win this race any more. The team made sure of that. And on top of that i don't see on how they could be serious about sending all three to the Tour 2024. We'll see.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

In such situation and in my opinion both Rogla and Jonas should stay with Kuss. They really can't win this race any more. The team made sure of that. And on top of that i don't see on how they could be serious about sending all three to the Tour 2024. We'll see.

They're not going to jeopardise the victory if Kuss is in major trouble. But if one the two decides to stay with Kuss regardless, then the other one pretty much have to do the same.

 

[Rackham]

They're not going to jeopardise the victory if Kuss is in major trouble. But if one the two decides to stay with Kuss regardless, then the other one pretty much have to do the same.

They have to win the Vuelta. That's the first rule here.

If someone gets into trouble (or two of them), then there always has to be one of the three in the front bunch. I mean let the influencers scream & wail on the internet all they want. Bike racing is a highly fluid situation.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Jumbo just got too ambitious and in the effort to secure victory in one season in all three GTs, they brought Jonas.
My take is that they didn't expect that Roglic and Kuss were already enough to achieve victory. In hindsight, this dominance was already there in the Tour.
Had Jonas didn't come to the Tour, and Kuss and Roglic would sort things out.
Then stage 16 happened and it got obvious to everyone that "sammen winnen" does not apply.
My take is that all DS failed to realize that either they said to Kuss, Roglic and Vingo that the approach was keeping Kuss there or that they had permission to race against each other. They didn't and whoever took the first step had an undeniable advantage by feigning to other teammates that he was playing by the book until he attacked. And although not breaking any "rule" coming from the top, the one who choose to attack would nevertheless break the rule of racing against your teammates. That's why I consider Jonas to be the culprit here as he drew first blood. He leapfrogged Roglic and didn't take the Red Jersey only by chance. When Roglic retires he of course, by the normal course of things, can win a Vuelta. Not with the Slovenian, who is facing his last years.
Finally, there's Kuss. I think it's logical to accept that he if wins the Vuelta it's because of a compromise between a stalemate between Rogla and Vingo. He doesn't deserve to win because it's a way to compensante all his help in previous GTs.

 

[Elos Anjos]

I cannot see Roglic pulling a Cunego and giving a middle finger to Jumbo. I would be happy to be proven otherwise

That would be epic and he probably will forever be the black sheep of the peloton. But Jumbo is also turning into a bully, so perhaps there's a chance that Roglic becomes the ultimate anti-hero if he does it.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

They have to win the Vuelta. That's the first rule here.

If someone gets into trouble (or two of them), then there always has to be one of the three in the front bunch. I mean let the influencers scream & wail on the internet all they want. Bike racing is a highly fluid situation.

Sure, but still in case one waits, and the other one gets the win, that guy's going to be royally effed.

 

[cellardoor]

They have to win the Vuelta. That's the first rule here.

If someone gets into trouble (or two of them), then there always has to be one of the three in the front bunch. I mean let the influencers scream & wail on the internet all they want. Bike racing is a highly fluid situation.

In that scenario it would probably be Roglic that stays with Kuss since he has more experience at classics/classic style stages and Jonas helped Kuss yesterday.

 

[CyclistAbi]

They have to win the Vuelta. That's the first rule here.

Not any more. The rule now is we must win the Vuelta with Kuss. No other scenario is possible any more. The mob wouldn't have it. So if Kuss struggles then they will lose the overall. Rogla and Jonas in my opinion should in no circumstances leave Kuss. If Kuss abandons then they both should too. Get of the bikes and into the car with Kuss.

Rogla and Jonas really can't win this GT any more. It's not possible.

 

[Rackham]

Sure, but still in case one waits, and the other one gets the win, that guy's going to be royally effed.

The one who waits with Kuss becomes the peoples' champ, the one who wins the Vuelta becomes number one on the FBI most wanted list for international terrorism.

Decisions, decisions...

 

[CyclistAbi]

With team like this, who needs other teams.

 

[SHAD0W93]

With team like this, who needs other teams.

Heck the other teams could probably all ride together against Jumbo and they’d lose.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Heck the other teams could probably all ride together against Jumbo and they’d lose.

They can try it on stage 20. Rogla and Jonas aren't going anywhere. Other teams hence can just all go for it in the breakaway.

 

[cellardoor]

22 days until Lombardia

 

[CyclistAbi]

22 days until Lombardia

How many leaders in the team this time?

 

[Blanco]

I mean, they do have a point. Why is the undisputed leader of the team and second overall pulling while Roglic isn’t, nor did he respond to anything.

People complain about Vinge’s attack screwing Roglic but it was either that or Vinge paces which isn’t happening. It’s not their fault no one responded to the attack. Roglic tried later and didn’t go anywhere. Vinge is also getting hate for coming back to Roglic on stage 6 and 17 but he sat on Mas and Kuss wheel who brought him back to Roglic.

The biggest things that went against Roglic was Kuss gaining all that time and not cracking, not gaining the time he could have to increase his gap over Vinge, and Evenepoel’s form being all over the place. If he was in red instead of Kuss, Kuss is working for him and Vinge doesn’t attack.

They don't.
He's not the undisputed leader of the team in this race. He's the co-leader.
He is 2nd overall, but does it really matter who pulls, tempo isn't that hard, he won't die there in front. For all we know, he may well wanted to pull, to show himself in better light (likely version), or to redeem himself cause he after all started all this mess (less likely version).

As for Vinge's attack, he didn't need to pace, nor to attack. He could've just watching things from the front, letting others do the work and responding if needed. Then he could've done a late attack, and either he wins or Roglic and everybody is happy. This way look what he has done.
On stage 6, he sat on Mas, then countered and literally he brought Mas to Roglic wheel.

And last, but not the least, I already said this, but I will repeat, he really likes Sepp, and he's glad that he's going to win this, but he's also speaking the truth saying that he would've wanted to win also, which by my opinion isn't something wrong, contrary to Vingegaard who is "all for Sepp now" when the big boss straight things up, but he shipped time from him whenever he could.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Heck the other teams could probably all ride together against Jumbo and they’d lose.

UAE have definitely made a mistake by not buying Jumbo (the team and/or the supermarket chain). Would have made everything much easier for them.

 

[Rackham]

They don't.
He's not the undisputed leader of the team in this race. He's the co-leader.
He is 2nd overall, but does it really matter who pulls, tempo isn't that hard, he won't die there in front. For all we know, he may well wanted to pull, to show himself in better light (likely version), or to redeem himself cause he after all started all this mess (less likely version).

As for Vinge's attack, he didn't need to pace, nor to attack. He could've just watching things from the front, letting others do the work and responding if needed. Then he could've done a late attack, and either he wins or Roglic and everybody is happy. This way look what he has done.
On stage 6, he sat on Mas, then countered and literally he brought Mas to Roglic wheel.

And last, but not the least, I already said this, but I will repeat, he really likes Sepp, and he's glad that he's going to win this, but he's also speaking the truth saying that he would've wanted to win also, which by my opinion isn't something wrong, contrary to Vingegaard who is "all for Sepp now" when the big boss straight things up, but he shipped time from him whenever he could.

There's an article in the Slovenian press which outlines some interesting stuff: https://www.rtvslo.si/sport/kolesar...sarja-naj-znotraj-ekipe-ne-bi-napadali/681490

Apparently it was Zeeman who made the call after the Angliru to freeze GC positions. But one of the major points of contention for Roglič is the fact whenever Vingegaard attacked, he either stayed with Kuss or didn't follow Vinge's wheel, but the reverse wasn't true.

Vingegaard knows he's got freedom in this team because he's the golden ticket in the TdF. He abused of that position IMO & ruined team cohesion here (maybe on purpose in order to get Rog out of the TdF team next year, which wouldn't be surprising considering he's already said he wanted the same team in 2024 as he had in 2023).

And before anyone jumps in & says I'm demonizing the rider here, I'm not. What happened isn't unusual & takes place in other sports as well (like when Sebastian Vettel & Charles Leclerc had issues at Ferrari a few years ago). The younger star always gets way, way more leeway to get whatever he wants.