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Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

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In retrospective i feel that they made a mistake. That is in season 2023 Rogla should have sole leadership at Giro-Vuelta and Jonas at the Tour. In 2024 they should then switch. I don't know why they thought bringing them both to Vuelta would be a good thing.

Sure, they will likely win 1, 2 and 3. Still realistically they did a lot of damage too. Tainted relationships and the image of their champions and things like that. Rather stupid.
 
In retrospective i feel that they made a mistake. That is in season 2023 Rogla should have sole leadership at Giro-Vuelta and Jonas at the Tour. In 2024 they should then switch. I don't know why they thought bringing them both to Vuelta would be a good thing.

Sure, they will likely win 1, 2 and 3. Still realistically they did a lot of damage too. Tainted relationships and the image of their champions and things like that. Rather stupid.
So keep the winner of the 2 previous editions at home? Who gets fired if Roglic doesn't win it again?
 
Well, there you have it. Halter, Kuss, and Vinge all confirmed that the team and riders agreed prior to Angliru that the three leaders would race it out. I see no reason not to believe them and no reason to say any of them did anything wrong, though I do think some decisions didn’t go Roglic way. After Angliru, they decided Kuss would win and Roglic agreed and let all sources is happy for Kuss even though he’s disappoint for himself.

"We had agreed that we would race for the red jersey, and it was clear that if the other two duel over it, then I also want to be involved. I would have liked that after the rest day, we had not fought for [the red jersey] anymore and had just ridden defensively. But we decided that we should fight for it, so then I was also put in a bit of a difficult situation, I think.

"I would have liked to see that it had been made earlier. It ends up with Sepp still winning – hopefully."
-Vingegaard
He didn't want internal fight after the rest day, but yet he was first to attack.
The talk is ok, but the deeds not so...
 
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I honestly don't see how he can ever race with Vingegaard ever again considering what happened here), it seems like Jumbo have ruined the relationship with their most iconic rider & pretty much symbol of the team. He was the guy who made modern Jumbo serial winners.
Why not? Everyone says Kuss should be happy to lead Rog and Vin to victories because he's paid handsomely to do so. Why shouldn't Roglič be happy to be paid handsomely to win many of the races he targets? So he had to bend to his employer's will and probably not win a GT that he possibly could have won, because his teammate was already leading it - so what? He's paid to do what the team tell him to do (assuming it's in accordance with the terms of his contract).
 
Why not? Everyone says Kuss should be happy to lead Rog and Vin to victories because he's paid handsomely to do so. Why shouldn't Roglič be happy to be paid handsomely to win many of the races he targets? So he had to bend to his employer's will and probably not win a GT that he possibly could have won, because his teammate was already leading it - so what? He's paid to do what the team tell him to do (assuming it's in accordance with the terms of his contract).
It doesn't sound like either of us has read their contracts but I wouldn't be surprised if each of them has support guarantees; particularly if they have won a GT. There may be additional incentives for their UCI ranking as well. Roglic may love the idea of Kuss winning but not as his deep financial expense and season 2024 primacy. If he'd won the Vuelta on top of the Giro he'd be in a much better bargaining position. Jonas; he's got the big prize on his side and will be at the start in France, for sure.
Now place both of them in a situation where Kuss can win, but whomever finishes second becomes UCI #1 and the other #2. If I were Roglic I'd be seriously piss*d off at that situation seeing as the big winner for small effort was Vingo.

If JV management called a truce and suggested to both of those guys that they'd each start the Tour on equal footing does that solve the problem? Doesn't look like a way out here. JV management may not care if feelings are hurt....right up to the point where one of their aces gets hurt enough to not contest a key race with the level of competition out there. Can Jonas beat a healthy Pogacar next year without Roglic's help? Remco has learned a few things this Vuelta so stirring that ingredient into the stew would suggest they better keep both guys happy. And Kuss.
 
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It doesn't sound like either of us has read their contracts but I wouldn't be surprised if each of them has support guarantees; particularly if they have won a GT. There may be additional incentives for their UCI ranking as well. Roglic may love the idea of Kuss winning but not as his deep financial expense and season 2024 primacy. If he'd won the Vuelta on top of the Giro he'd be in a much better bargaining position. Jonas; he's got the big prize on his side and will be at the start in France, for sure.
Now place both of them in a situation where Kuss can win, but whomever finishes second becomes UCI #1 and the other #2. If I were Roglic I'd be seriously piss*d off at that situation seeing as the big winner for small effort was Vingo.

If JV management called a truce and suggested to both of those guys that they'd each start the Tour on equal footing does that solve the problem? Doesn't look like a way out here. JV management may not care if feelings are hurt....right up to the point where one of their aces gets hurt enough to not contest a key race with the level of competition out there. Can Jonas beat a healthy Pogacar next year without Roglic's help? Remco has learned a few things this Vuelta so stirring that ingredient into the stew would suggest they better keep both guys happy. And Kuss.
Reasonable take.

Ultimately, this Vuelta drama is down to poor talent management. I actually don't think Roglič or Vingegaard are evil, or Kuss is saintly. Just rationally self-interested riders who also realize who signs the checks.

So it's the Köchli-esque directing that deserves criticism, and while [almost?] all the major English-language commentators, ex-riders, journalists, etc who I follow criticized team management, it's understandably what happens on the road b/w the riders that captures the attention of the more casual fan and media.

*Update: I now hope Roglič cracks Kuss tomorrow and takes the lead, since I just bet him to win the overall at (+4000)! :sweatsmile:
 
I’m sure Roglic is feeling a bit frustrated with the way things have gone since the 2020 Tour, or even the 2019 Giro. If all the cards had broken his way, he might have 2 Tour wins plus that Giro, instead 3 consolation prize Vueltas and a skin of his teeth giro this year — and he lost his team GC leadership to a fishmonger. I’m sure his instinct is to look for a new team to have sole Tour leadership but his record suggests something will go awry.

I do feel for him, and I prefer him as a rider over Vingegaard, but I sometimes think he struggles a bit in the English speaking world; maybe he’s not able to communicate sophisticated thoughts that he can articulate in Slovenian.
 
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He’ll never win the tour. It was 2020 or never.

I hear & read this a lot. I get where everyone is coming from but when we see how he climbed the Angliru & his ITT performance... surely this is unchartered territory in pro-cycling as far as having a rider of this level being told "you can't win the Tour"?

And I'm not saying you're wrong either (although I do have a more nuanced appraisal of his chances, i.e. even if I'm realistic here), with Roglič people need to admit he's always underrated irrespective of his exploits on the road.

I mean if Juan Ayuso performed the way Rog did in the ITT & on the Angliru, a very different conversation regarding the 2024 TdF would be taking place right now (namely we'd see quite a lot of hyperbole about his chances versus Pog). And that's one of the things which I notice in cycling most, i.e. when a hyped rider (especially a younger one) has a good performance, we'll hear "he's going to smash everything, guaranteed". At least that's the prevalent mood & opinion. For example many 'watts obsessives' on social media & other influencers believed Ayuso was going to smash Rog in this Vuelta. Just as they said Almeida would smash him in the Giro.

IMO maybe (just maybe) he's just another Novak Djokovic-esque athlete & cycling commentators haven't realized it yet. Great personal hygiene, discipline, drive & determination to succeed... & a winner in his mid-30's.

That's it really.
 
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So it's Moviestar making the first move. Their budget is going up and they made an offer to Roglič.

I'm hearing 3 teams right now: Trek, Movistar & Ineos.

It's all a bit 'melancholic' really (that's the word I think fits here). But Jumbo brought this on themselves. They operate a sweatshop over there in the Netherlands where their top riders sooner or later become Kruijswijk, i.e. pulling on the front of the bunch for 50km in the Tour of Britain. They had Rog doing something similar in the TdF last year & probably would have taken him to the TdF 2023 as long as he accepted a servant role. Even Zeeman was trying to talk him out of aiming for the Tour.

It's humiliating because it came way, way too soon & all Jumbo had eyes for was Vineggaard's watts. They totally forgot Rog existed IMO (& where they were before his rise to the top).

That's why the Angliru was a sweet win.
 
Reasonable take.

Ultimately, this Vuelta drama is down to poor talent management. I actually don't think Roglič or Vingegaard are evil, or Kuss is saintly. Just rationally self-interested riders who also realize who signs the checks.

So it's the Köchli-esque directing that deserves criticism, and while [almost?] all the major English-language commentators, ex-riders, journalists, etc who I follow criticized team management, it's understandably what happens on the road b/w the riders that captures the attention of the more casual fan and media.

*Update: I now hope Roglič cracks Kuss tomorrow and takes the lead, since I just bet him to win the overall at (+4000)! :sweatsmile:
The criticism of team management was mostly easy and cheap. None of these "experts" have ever been in this situation themselves. Or if they have, like Johan Bruyneel (albeit with just two leaders) they didn't exactly do any better. Should Jumbo management have told the three guys to stop racing and just defend their position, they'd have been equally critical of Jumbo's intent to kill the race. Wouldn't that have been outright boring? More than a week of just doing nothing and clearly holding back for Sepp Kuss. Or did you like Thursday's stage?

I think if you're in this unique situation of having three guys decide among themselves who wins, the choice to actually race for it is a defendable one. It's fair to the race, to the fans, and to cycling in general. But because of multiple factors, like the idea that Kuss somehow "deserved" this win, and the idea that they still had some opposition, they were racing, but at the same time they weren't. That made it awkward.
 
I'm hearing 3 teams right now: Trek, Movistar & Ineos.

It's all a bit 'melancholic' really (that's the word I think fits here). But Jumbo brought this on themselves. They operate a sweatshop over there in the Netherlands where their top riders sooner or later become Kruijswijk, i.e. pulling on the front of the bunch for 50km in the Tour of Britain. They had Rog doing something similar in the TdF last year & probably would have taken him to the TdF 2023 as long as he accepted a servant role. Even Zeeman was trying to talk him out of aiming for the Tour.

It's humiliating because it came way, way too soon & all Jumbo had eyes for was Vineggaard's watts. They totally forgot Rog existed IMO (& where they were before his rise to the top).

That's why the Angliru was a sweet win.

Movistar are not exactly known for handling multiple leaders very well. On the other hand, somehow I sense he'd work well with Mas.
 
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