Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Rackham]

Any 'fair fight' was out of the game after stage 16 anyway because Roglic and Kuss weren't allowed to chase. Any 'the road decides' would have been Vingegaard winning by a previous arbitrary DS decision too.

The teammate battle was borked by terrible decisions from the car, in that, I agree entirely. But the principle was sound, as was the Angliru.

The Tourmalet should never have happened the way it did either 'if' they were going to decide to fight it out later, considering how much time Rog lost there.

 

[kn0s]

The teammate battle was borked by terrible decisions from the car, in that, I agree entirely. But the principle was sound, as was the Angliru.

The Tourmalet should never have happened the way it did either 'if' they were going to decide to fight it out later, considering how much time Rog lost there.

I assume you are on team "stage 16 steal!!" And you say tourmalet should never happen. You bring Jonas to the race why? What is he going to do here? Point to the stages where he get to do his thing.

If the "car" had a wish for Jonas to win this, they did a poor job. Doing everything in ther power to get Roglic the win on stage 16 and set Jonas free on 17 is the way to make Jonas the winner of the race in my opinion.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

I feel that some positive outcomes from this Vuelta edition are, now any talk of Rogla being selfish, well that was now put to rest.

I never took that seriously before, he‘s been loyal and I actually think of him as more selfish because he didn‘t really seem to be enjoying this Vuelta (although that‘s mostly about Vingegaard taking his spot on GC in a very petty way)

 

[zlev11]

Roglic did Kuss a favor by racing him on Angliru. Kuss only lost 19 seconds, he was able to show his full strength. it makes him look like a worthy winner, much better than if they just held his hand for the entire last week.

 

[AmRacer]

I assume you are on team "stage 16 steal!!" And you say tourmalet should never happen. You bring Jonas to the race why? What is he going to do here? Point to the stages where he get to do his thing.

If the "car" had a wish for Jonas to win this, they did a poor job. Doing everything in ther power to get Roglic the win on stage 16 and set Jonas free on 17 is the way to make Jonas the winner of the race in my opinion.

Things got complicated when Kuss took the Red, and Remco lost the battle.
Jonas and Rogla were supposed to attack Remco in the same way they did with Pog.
Nobody expected Kuss in the Red. Nobody expected Kuss to be the third strongest rider.

 

[AmRacer]

Roglic did Kuss a favor by racing him on Angliru. Kuss only lost 19 seconds, he was able to show his full strength. it makes him look like a worthy winner, much better than if they just held his hand for the entire last week.

Roglic could probably attacked earlier, if Jonas wasn't there.

 

[zlev11]

Roglic could probably attacked earlier, if Jonas wasn't there.

maybe. but the fact is that he did the 2nd best Angliru time ever and Kuss was very close. it made him look good (because he is).

 

[CyclistAbi]

On Angliru Rogla mostly went for the stage.

 

[Oldermanish]

I assume you are on team "stage 16 steal!!" And you say tourmalet should never happen. You bring Jonas to the race why? What is he going to do here? Point to the stages where he get to do his thing.

If the "car" had a wish for Jonas to win this, they did a poor job. Doing everything in ther power to get Roglic the win on stage 16 and set Jonas free on 17 is the way to make Jonas the winner of the race in my opinion.

They clearly had an idea that provided backup for either of the two Prima Ballerinas. Kuss proved too resilient for them to dispatch without looking like they did.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Now Sepp will have to work for Rogla and Jonas at the Tour 2024.

 

[bill1109]

Things got complicated when Kuss took the Red, and Remco lost the battle.
Jonas and Rogla were supposed to attack Remco in the same way they did with Pog.
Nobody expected Kuss in the Red. Nobody expected Kuss to be the third strongest rider.

remco was never a factor...against in shape , uninjured, unsick real gc riders. The one that said kiss wasnt a factor was the very one that was not a factor. The tactical loss of 20+ minutes by remco in order to assume he was allowed gimmick rides is the funniest thing I have seen in a GC. He knew he couldn't win. And instead of struggling like Pogi in the tour , remco gave up assuming he was allowed gimmick rides. I was glad to see he was denied the win today.

 

[zlev11]

remco was never a factor...against in shape , uninjured, unsick real gc riders. The one that said kiss wasnt a factor was the very one that was not a factor. The tactical loss of 20+ minutes by remco in order to assume he was allowed gimmick rides is the funniest thing I have seen in a GC. He knew he couldn't win. And instead of struggling like Pogi in the tour , remco gave up assuming he was allowed gimmick rides. I was glad to see he was denied the win today.

if they give Remco a joke of a route like last year he could do well in the GC again. and he still got dropped on all 2 of the real mountain stages last year.

 

[Sciatic]

The teammate battle was borked by terrible decisions from the car, in that, I agree entirely. But the principle was sound, as was the Angliru.

The Tourmalet should never have happened the way it did either 'if' they were going to decide to fight it out later, considering how much time Rog lost there.

Agree, Jumbo’s decision Tourmalet should be for Vingegaard (if that was indeed the plan, or if it was just the plan to have him attack 1st)), left Roglic to be the “good” teammate and stick with Kuss. Not only did Roglic fall way behind, but also created a sense that they owed Roglic his chance. Which couldn’t really happen b’c Mas and Ayuso were already cooked so there was no longer any need for aggressive racing.

 

[Valv.Piti]

The teammate battle was borked by terrible decisions from the car, in that, I agree entirely. But the principle was sound, as was the Angliru.

The Tourmalet should never have happened the way it did either 'if' they were going to decide to fight it out later, considering how much time Rog lost there.

You're always allowed to bridge to a teammate if youre able to alone. Roglic wasn't on his best day, and what he was served on Tourmalet was pretty much the best possible outcome given the day he was on

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

You're always allowed to bridge to a teammate if youre able to alone. Roglic wasn't on his best day, and what he was served on Tourmalet was pretty much the best possible outcome given the day he was on

He brought Mas on stage 6.

 

[Red Rick]

"I'm also very happy because not all the media jump on me and I can escape"

 

[lenric]

I hear & read this a lot. I get where everyone is coming from but when we see how he climbed the Angliru & his ITT performance... surely this is unchartered territory in pro-cycling as far as having a rider of this level being told "you can't win the Tour"?

And I'm not saying you're wrong either (although I do have a more nuanced appraisal of his chances, i.e. even if I'm realistic here), with Roglič people need to admit he's always underrated irrespective of his exploits on the road.

I mean if Juan Ayuso performed the way Rog did in the ITT & on the Angliru, a very different conversation regarding the 2024 TdF would be taking place right now (namely we'd see quite a lot of hyperbole about his chances versus Pog). And that's one of the things which I notice in cycling most, i.e. when a hyped rider (especially a younger one) has a good performance, we'll hear "he's going to smash everything, guaranteed". At least that's the prevalent mood & opinion. For example many 'watts obsessives' on social media & other influencers believed Ayuso was going to smash Rog in this Vuelta. Just as they said Almeida would smash him in the Giro.

IMO maybe (just maybe) he's just another Novak Djokovic-esque athlete & cycling commentators haven't realized it yet. Great personal hygiene, discipline, drive & determination to succeed... & a winner in his mid-30's.

That's it really.

Vuelta and Giro are at least 1 step below the Tour when it comes to the level. Besides, over there he'd have to face Pogacar and Vingegaard on their top level. Those two are below 26/27 and Roglic is 34 and Roglic had issues in the Giro against a 37 dude.
He has already tried winning the Tour and being in JV he'll hardly be prioritized over Vingegaard, so if I were win I'd try to win a few more Giros and Vueltas instead of having a longshot at the tour in the twilight of my career.

 

[Carols]

if I were win I'd try to win a few more Giros and Vueltas instead of having a longshot at the tour in the twilight of my career.

You don't have the mind of a Champion!

 

[lenric]

You don't have the mind of a Champion!

ok

 

[Rackham]

Vuelta and Giro are at least 1 step below the Tour when it comes to the level. Besides, over there he'd have to face Pogacar and Vingegaard on their top level. Those two are below 26/27 and Roglic is 34 and Roglic had issues in the Giro against a 37 dude.
He has already tried winning the Tour and being in JV he'll hardly be prioritized over Vingegaard, so if I were win I'd try to win a few more Giros and Vueltas instead of having a longshot at the tour in the twilight of my career.

A counter argument to this theory is going to the Giro & Vuelta offers no guarantees. We've seen how team tactics within Jumbo hurt his chances here in the Vuelta 2023, meanwhile young riders elsewhere in the peloton are getting better & better, i.e. after a while when a champion gets older he's going to get beaten anyway. It's inevitable.

I'd rather he goes all in with a Hail Mary in the TdF for a couple more years than going to the Giro & Vuelta with the risk of getting outmanoeuvred within his own team by either Vinge or one of his domestiques, or beaten by some up & coming star from another team.

 

[Red Rick]

A counter argument to this theory is going to the Giro & Vuelta offers no guarantees. We've seen how team tactics within Jumbo hurt his chances here in the Vuelta 2023, meanwhile young riders elsewhere in the peloton are getting better & better, i.e. after a while when a champion gets older he's going to get beaten anyway. It's inevitable.

I'd rather he goes all in with a Hail Mary in the TdF for a couple more years than going to the Giro & Vuelta with the risk of getting outmanoeuvred within his own team by either Vinge or one of his domestiques, or beaten by some up & coming star from another team.

One of the Jumbo directors already said they're planning to have Roglic be one of the leaders of Jumbo in the Tour next year. IIRC it was Plugge.

In hindsight going to the Tour this year would have been more satisfying than the Vuelta cause he would likely have podiumed and maybe even gotten 2nd there.

 

[Red Rick]

You don't have the mind of a Champion!

It's largely just personal preference. I wouldn't be able to decide the boundary between when it's having the mind of a champion and when it starts being sunk cost fallacy.

I understand and respect that he still wants a crack at it though.

 

[Rackham]

One of the Jumbo directors already said they're planning to have Roglic be one of the leaders of Jumbo in the Tour next year. IIRC it was Plugge.

In hindsight going to the Tour this year would have been more satisfying than the Vuelta cause he would likely have podiumed and maybe even gotten 2nd there.

That's good to hear. It looks like Plugge might have stepped in & done some fence mending after whatever-it-was that happened during the week.

I also think he could have gotten second in the TdF (after Pog's implosion).

 

[CyclistAbi]

Vuelta and Giro are at least 1 step below the Tour when it comes to the level.

Gone are in my opinion the times, on where one could hope to win Giro/Tour/Vuelta, by believing you can prepare 1 step below your best.

 

[Netserk]

It's largely just personal preference. I wouldn't be able to decide the boundary between when it's having the mind of a champion and when it starts being sunk cost fallacy.

I understand and respect that he still wants a crack at it though.

One clean run at it and he can turn his back.