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Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

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CyclistAbi

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Berniece said:
I'm just saying that if Thomas is able to beat Pogacar one-on-one, I don't see Pogacar like I see him now.
Click to expand...

And Thomas would likely get a different shade of aura too?

DoYouEvenRideBruh said:
You can't get away with not explaining the thought process that led you to this post in full detail.

Is this some very obscure joke about contract extensions?
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It's a trick question, as nobody can really explain that. So the main idea was for Rogla to take a bait and to fail at the Tour. Or if not that then to substantially bump the post number in this thread. And for all the participants to miss the Tour. Ultimate fail.
 
topcat

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DoYouEvenRideBruh said:
You can't get away with not explaining the thought process that led you to this post in full detail.

Is this some very obscure joke about contract extensions?
Click to expand...
It is, but mostly I'm hoping most ppl will just say what the ***. I'm a maths professor by day and I come on the forum to get away from it all.
The tour:
Remco has a chance
Rog has a chance
Vingo has a chance
Pog has a chance
It's exciting, let's not make it boring.
 
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Froome

Froome

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CyclistAbi said:
And what if Thomas beats Pogi on this Giro edition, are then Pogi and Jonas behind Thomas? Point being this is just so selective memory, like if Rogla didn't beat them all already in the past.
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Roglic is just better than Pogacar and Vingegaard in 2 areas that are not that important to win a Grand Tour.

1-sprint
2-short TT


Grand Tours are decided in the mountains stages, especially those long mountain stages with a lot of vertical meters and in the long Time Trials.

1-Pogacar and Vingegaard are a better bike handlers than Roglic. They crash less, they can position better in the peloton to get out of trouble, they also can descend better.

2-They are also better than Roglic in Time trials, especially in the last week of a Grand Tour.

3-Mountain stages and the ability to push high W/kg ( yes, this is very important, for some reason the riders and staff of the teams talk a lot about that).
Vingegaard and Pogacar can push more W/kg than Roglic, if we look at the performances in the last years. They can push more W/Kg in 15/20/30/40 min climbing efforts.

4-Roglic also has a big weakness especially compared with Vingegaard, the long mountain stages with a lot of vertical meters. Roglic suffers a lot on that type of stages.

5-Pogacar and Vingegaard recover better from the efforts on the previous days.

The gap between Pogacar and Vingegaard to the other riders in the mountain stages, tells everything. I just can't see Roglic being phisically to go with them. He never proved capable of doing that, day and day out, and for some reason Visma choosed Vingegaard to be the guy in the Tour.

I just can't see how Roglic can beat Vingegaard or Pogacar in a mano a mano, on normal conditions, but like i said, there's a chance of Vingegaard and Roglic not being there at 100%, so the chances of Roglic increase a bit.
 
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bNator

bNator

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Froome said:
Roglic is just better than Pogacar and Vingegaard in 2 areas that are not that important to win a Grand Tour.

1-sprint
2-short TT


Grand Tours are decided in the mountains stages, especially those long mountain stages with a lot of vertical meters and in the long Time Trials.

1-Pogacar and Vingegaard are a better bike handlers than Roglic. They crash less, they can position better in the peloton to get out of trouble, they also can descend better.

2-They are also better than Roglic in Time trials, especially in the last week of a Grand Tour.

3-Mountain stages and the ability to push high W/kg ( yes, this is very important, for some reason the riders and staff of the teams talk a lot about that).
Vingegaard and Pogacar can push more W/kg than Roglic, if we look at the performances in the last years. They can push more W/Kg in 15/20/30/40 min climbing efforts.

4-Roglic also has a big weakness especially compared with Vingegaard, the long mountain stages with a lot of vertical meters. Roglic suffers a lot on that type of stages.

5-Pogacar and Vingegaard recover better from the efforts on the previous days.

I just can't see how Roglic can beat Vingegaard or Pogacar in a mano a mano, on normal conditions, but like i said, there's a chance of Vingegaard and Roglic not being there at 100%, so the chances of Roglic increase a bit.
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While these may all be true, you have no samples to prove them (except issue number 1 minus descending). There simply isn’t enough samples of those two fighting against Roglic. And those that are, are inconclusive: Roglic for instance beat Vingegaard on a rather long TT in Vuelta, he appeared to be stronger in Angliru. There are long TTs where Roglic performed exceptionally: Giro 2019, OG 2021 and Vuelta 2020… long mountain stages in 2020 indicate they might not be such a problem after all…

Basically, we have seen Vinge and Pog get a chance to perform in the recent years while Rogla was ridden by crashes, injuries and bad luck (hale bale was simply out of his control). That’s why you deduce all these supposed weaknesses from Pog/Vinge’s strengths. But in reality, these are all just assumptions which were never confirmed.
 
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Froome

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bNator said:
While these may all be true, you have no samples to prove them (except issue number 1 minus descending). There simply isn’t enough samples of those two fighting against Roglic. And those that are, are inconclusive: Roglic for instance beat Vingegaard on a rather long TT in Vuelta, he appeared to be stronger in Angliru. There are long TTs where Roglic performed exceptionally: Giro 2019, OG 2021 and Vuelta 2020… long mountain stages in 2020 indicate they might not be such a problem after all…

Basically, we have seen Vinge and Pog get a chance to perform in the recent years while Rogla was ridden by crashes, injuries and bad luck (hale bale was simply out of his control). That’s why you deduce all these supposed weaknesses from Pog/Vinge’s strengths. But in reality, these are all just assumptions which were never confirmed.
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The fact he had a lot of crashes and sometimes "bad luck" has to do with what i said on point 1.


I was talking about being at 100%. Obviously Vingegaard were not at 100% during the vuelta and was sick in the first week. Roglic did a good preparation to the Vuelta. I think it's better talk about the perfomances of Pogacar and Vingegaard at 100% compared with the perfomances of Roglic at 100%.

I think we can compare Angliru where Roglic was at his best, compared with the perfomances of Pogacar and Vingegaard at his best, being at 100%.
We can look at the gaps. Roglic on Angliru was 17 s faster than Landa. When Vingegaard and Pogacar go full gas like in the Tour France, for example, Tourmalet, the gap for the others riders is much bigger. They are phisically stronger.

I'm not going to talk about monte bondone because maybe Roglic was not at 100%, but we can compare Angliru where Roglic was at 100% with the perfomances of Vingegaard and Pogacar at 100%.

Long mountain stages with a lot of vertical meters, i honestly tought was something we all were going to agree abou being a weakness to Roglic compared with the other two. Roglic is clearly stronger in short stages, like he is strong is short efforts.
 
bNator

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Froome said:
The fact he had a lot of crashes and sometimes "bad luck" has to do with what i said on point 1.


I was talking about being at 100%. Obviously Vingegaard were not at 100% during the vuelta and was sick in the first week. Roglic did a good preparation to the Vuelta. I think it's better talk about the perfomances of Pogacar and Vingegaard at 100% compared with the perfomances of Roglic at 100%.

I think we can compare Angliru where Roglic was at his best, compared with the perfomances of Pogacar and Vingegaard at his best, being at 100%.
We can look at the gaps. Roglic on Angliru was 17 s faster than Landa. When Vingegaard and Pogacar go full gas like in the Tour France, for example, Tourmalet, the gap for the others riders is much bigger. They are phisically stronger.

I'm not going to talk about monte bondone because maybe Roglic was not at 100%, but we can compare Angliru where Roglic was at 100% with the perfomances of Vingegaard and Pogacar at 100%.

Long mountain stages with a lot of vertical meters, i honestly tought was something we all were going to agree abou being a weakness to Roglic compared with the other two. Roglic is clearly stronger in short stages, like he is strong is short efforts.
Click to expand...
So long story short: Vingegaard and Roglic never competed while both at 100%, and Pog and Roglic competed once. That’s why I’m saying your claims are assumptions. Which is ok, by the way. It’s just that I don’t agree with most of them. I agree he is worse bike handler (but at least as good descender) and that he has problem with very long stages (which there are none at this year’s Tour). He might be a better TTer on average, has a better sprint, better 5-8 minutes average output and maybe (not sure about that) similar long climb power output.

Considering those assumptions: if he stays on his bike and reaches his best-possible FTP, he might have a chance against 100% Pog/Vinge.
 
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Froome

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bNator said:
So long story short: Vingegaard and Roglic never competed while both at 100%, and Pog and Roglic competed once. That’s why I’m saying your claims are assumptions. Which is ok, by the way. It’s just that I don’t agree with most of them. I agree he is worse bike handler (but at least as good descender) and that he has problem with very long stages (which there are none at this year’s Tour). He might be a better TTer on average, has a better sprint, better 5-8 minutes average output and maybe (not sure about that) similar long climb power output.

Considering those assumptions: if he stays on his bike and reaches his best-possible FTP, he might have a chance against 100% Pog/Vinge.

If Vingegaard keeps repeating last years TdF TT performance, I doubt anyone has much chance anyway…
Click to expand...
I think the gaps for the other riders speaks for himself. You are starting from the assumption that they never faced each other, but i don't think it’s so necessary to know who can be the most stronger by facing each other.

We can compare physically the perfomances between them in Grand Tours at 100% (the TT you talk about is an example), but like i said most of all, the gaps to the other riders, and then we compare the gap between Roglic to the others riders when he was at 100% during Grand Tours.

In my opinion Vingegaard and Pogacar are in a league of his own, when we look at the gaps between them and the others in mountain stages. They can easily put 2/3 minutes on the others riders day after day in the mountains, with an ease that we don't see in others riders. Unless Roglic suddenly shows power that he never showed in his career, i don't think he is able to follow them.
 
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Cookster15

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CyclistAbi said:
And what if Thomas beats Pogi on this Giro edition, are then Pogi and Jonas behind Thomas? Point being this is just so selective memory, like if Rogla didn't beat them all already in the past.
Click to expand...
Thomas turns 38 on May 25. Can we be realistic rather than far fetched? As I see it the only way Thomas beats Pogacar this Giro (based upon facts, logic and reason) is if Pogacar crashes. Surprised at the suggestion. Confirmation should be by Saturday.
 
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Froome said:
I think the gaps for the other riders speaks for himself. You are starting from the assumption that they never faced each other, but i don't think it’s so necessary to know who can be the most stronger by facing each other.

We can compare physically the perfomances between them in Grand Tours at 100% (the TT you talk about is an example), but like i said most of all, the gaps to the other riders, and then we compare the gap between Roglic to the others riders when he was at 100% during Grand Tours.

In my opinion Vingegaard and Pogacar are in a league of his own, when we look at the gaps between them and the others in mountain stages. They can easily put 2/3 minutes on the others riders day after day in the mountains, with an ease that we don't see in others riders. Unless Roglic suddenly shows power that he never showed in his career, i don't think he is able to follow them.
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I agree that this is the best we have to go on, when the direct comparisons are so relatively small. I have seen Roglic go to races and do battle with Yeats and Thomas and the like. Pog and Jonas barely think of them as competition when 100%. Here I'm of course only including the most recent years.
 
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CyclistAbi

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@Froome

Rogla has beaten Pogi on multiple occasions when it comes to punchy finale. In my opinion Pogi is good as such finales too, so he came on top a couple of times too, although i feel that they might decided to sacrifice a bit of that this year and to try to do better at climbing, looking at Pogi physique. As for ITT, short or long, that doesn't make much difference to Rogla, he prefers hilly ones over a flat one and that is about it. It's on why Rogla is an Olympic champion, on where he demolished the competition on a long ITT. As for Rogla not being good on last ITT at a GT, you based such assumption solely on the Tour 2020. Last years Giro comes to mind, to easily refute such claims and hence recovery can't be that bad either. As for climbing and comparison against Pogi and Jonas. Rogla doesn't tend to attack on such terrain, like all the time, but when it's important he can do just that or go mano a mano with anybody, including Pogi and Jonas. Last climbing stage at Tour 2020 and Angliru at Vuetla 2023, he came across the finish line first. On top of that if JV would race for Rogla from day 1 and wouldn't be so caught up in the internal team politics, on how it might look if Rogla to win the race. Then Rogla would highly likely win Vuelta 2023. As for number 100%. If Jonas will skip the Tour and go to Vuelta, to be at 100%, lets see if anybody can prevent Rogla securing a double this year. As otherwise i do get it, Jonas was not 100% at the Tour if he won't win it and so Rogla will have to go against 100% Jonas at the next edition. Well, fine by me.
 
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Froome

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CyclistAbi said:
@Froome

Rogla has beaten Pogi on multiple occasions when it comes to punchy finale. In my opinion Pogi is good as such finales too, so he came on top a couple of times too, although i feel that they might decided to sacrifice a bit of that this year and to try to do better at climbing, looking at Pogi physique. As for ITT, short or long, that doesn't make much difference to Rogla, he prefers hilly ones over a flat one and that is about it. It's on why Rogla is an Olympic champion, on where he demolished the competition on a long ITT. As for Rogla not being good on last ITT at a GT, you based such assumption solely on the Tour 2020. Last years Giro comes to mind, to easily refute such claims and hence recovery can't be that bad either. As for climbing and comparison against Pogi and Jonas. Rogla doesn't tend to attack on such terrain, like all the time, but when it's important he can do just that or go mano a mano with anybody, including Pogi and Jonas. Last climbing stage at Tour 2020 and Angliru at Vuetla 2023, he came across the finish line first. On top of that if JV would race for Rogla from day 1 and wouldn't be so caught up in the internal team politics, on how it might look if Rogla to win the race. Then Rogla would highly likely win Vuelta 2023. As for number 100%. If Jonas will skip the Tour and go to Vuelta, to be at 100%, lets see if anybody can prevent Rogla securing a double this year. As otherwise i do get it, Jonas was not 100% at the Tour if he won't win it and so Rogla will have to go against 100% Jonas at the next edition. Well, fine by me.
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Well, you talked about Col de la Loze, another good example of what i talked about.

What was the gap between Roglic and the others? Miguel angel Lopez won the stage, and Roglic had a gap of 15 s to Pogacar, and 45 s to Richie Porte.

Now look at the gaps Vingegaard made last year on col de la loze. Adam yates 2 minutes, Carlos Rodriguez 3 min, simon yates 1 min and half, and after what happened to Pogacar he didn't go deep.

You can also look to the gaps Roglic created on Angliru last year, 19 s to Landa, 44 s to wout poels, and compare to the gaps on hautacam stage in the Tour 2022 or the Tourmalet stage of last year at the Tour. The others riders just finished 2/3 minutes later.

I didn’t said Roglic is a bad climber or time trialist, simply i think the other two are on a league of his own.
 
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bNator

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Berniece said:
What are you talking about? Vingegaard has beaten Roglic in uphill sprints and Narvaez couple of days ago on the flat.
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What are you talking about? What has Roglic beating Pog have to to with Vingegaard (supposedly) outsprinting Roglic. But just out of curiosity - when did that happen?

I'm not saying noone has ever outsprinted Pog ever... What I'm talking about is that noone has ever outsprinted Pog like Rogla did in that Emillia. If Narvaez is the best you can come up with, you're gonna have to try much harder, I'm afraid.
 
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Red Rick

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bNator said:
What are you talking about? What has Roglic beating Pog have to to with Vingegaard (supposedly) outsprinting Roglic. But just out of curiosity - when did that happen?

I'm not saying noone has ever outsprinted Pog ever... What I'm talking about is that noone has ever outsprinted Pog like Rogla did in that Emillia. If Narvaez is the best you can come up with, you're gonna have to try much harder, I'm afraid.
Click to expand...
I think this is TdF stage 6 of the 2022 Tour.

You know, the day when Van Aert when into a solo breakaway for no reasin, giftwrapping the uphill sprint stage to Pogacar, and when Roglic had a broken back, and still tried to start the sprint from a long way out.
 
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