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Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

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Froome

Froome

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bNator said:
So long story short: Vingegaard and Roglic never competed while both at 100%, and Pog and Roglic competed once. That’s why I’m saying your claims are assumptions. Which is ok, by the way. It’s just that I don’t agree with most of them. I agree he is worse bike handler (but at least as good descender) and that he has problem with very long stages (which there are none at this year’s Tour). He might be a better TTer on average, has a better sprint, better 5-8 minutes average output and maybe (not sure about that) similar long climb power output.

Considering those assumptions: if he stays on his bike and reaches his best-possible FTP, he might have a chance against 100% Pog/Vinge.

If Vingegaard keeps repeating last years TdF TT performance, I doubt anyone has much chance anyway…
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I think the gaps for the other riders speaks for himself. You are starting from the assumption that they never faced each other, but i don't think it’s so necessary to know who can be the most stronger by facing each other.

We can compare physically the perfomances between them in Grand Tours at 100% (the TT you talk about is an example), but like i said most of all, the gaps to the other riders, and then we compare the gap between Roglic to the others riders when he was at 100% during Grand Tours.

In my opinion Vingegaard and Pogacar are in a league of his own, when we look at the gaps between them and the others in mountain stages. They can easily put 2/3 minutes on the others riders day after day in the mountains, with an ease that we don't see in others riders. Unless Roglic suddenly shows power that he never showed in his career, i don't think he is able to follow them.
 
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Cookster15

Cookster15

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CyclistAbi said:
And what if Thomas beats Pogi on this Giro edition, are then Pogi and Jonas behind Thomas? Point being this is just so selective memory, like if Rogla didn't beat them all already in the past.
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Thomas turns 38 on May 25. Can we be realistic rather than far fetched? As I see it the only way Thomas beats Pogacar this Giro (based upon facts, logic and reason) is if Pogacar crashes. Surprised at the suggestion. Confirmation should be by Saturday.
 
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kn0s

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Froome said:
I think the gaps for the other riders speaks for himself. You are starting from the assumption that they never faced each other, but i don't think it’s so necessary to know who can be the most stronger by facing each other.

We can compare physically the perfomances between them in Grand Tours at 100% (the TT you talk about is an example), but like i said most of all, the gaps to the other riders, and then we compare the gap between Roglic to the others riders when he was at 100% during Grand Tours.

In my opinion Vingegaard and Pogacar are in a league of his own, when we look at the gaps between them and the others in mountain stages. They can easily put 2/3 minutes on the others riders day after day in the mountains, with an ease that we don't see in others riders. Unless Roglic suddenly shows power that he never showed in his career, i don't think he is able to follow them.
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I agree that this is the best we have to go on, when the direct comparisons are so relatively small. I have seen Roglic go to races and do battle with Yeats and Thomas and the like. Pog and Jonas barely think of them as competition when 100%. Here I'm of course only including the most recent years.
 
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CyclistAbi

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@Froome

Rogla has beaten Pogi on multiple occasions when it comes to punchy finale. In my opinion Pogi is good as such finales too, so he came on top a couple of times too, although i feel that they might decided to sacrifice a bit of that this year and to try to do better at climbing, looking at Pogi physique. As for ITT, short or long, that doesn't make much difference to Rogla, he prefers hilly ones over a flat one and that is about it. It's on why Rogla is an Olympic champion, on where he demolished the competition on a long ITT. As for Rogla not being good on last ITT at a GT, you based such assumption solely on the Tour 2020. Last years Giro comes to mind, to easily refute such claims and hence recovery can't be that bad either. As for climbing and comparison against Pogi and Jonas. Rogla doesn't tend to attack on such terrain, like all the time, but when it's important he can do just that or go mano a mano with anybody, including Pogi and Jonas. Last climbing stage at Tour 2020 and Angliru at Vuetla 2023, he came across the finish line first. On top of that if JV would race for Rogla from day 1 and wouldn't be so caught up in the internal team politics, on how it might look if Rogla to win the race. Then Rogla would highly likely win Vuelta 2023. As for number 100%. If Jonas will skip the Tour and go to Vuelta, to be at 100%, lets see if anybody can prevent Rogla securing a double this year. As otherwise i do get it, Jonas was not 100% at the Tour if he won't win it and so Rogla will have to go against 100% Jonas at the next edition. Well, fine by me.
 
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Froome

Froome

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CyclistAbi said:
@Froome

Rogla has beaten Pogi on multiple occasions when it comes to punchy finale. In my opinion Pogi is good as such finales too, so he came on top a couple of times too, although i feel that they might decided to sacrifice a bit of that this year and to try to do better at climbing, looking at Pogi physique. As for ITT, short or long, that doesn't make much difference to Rogla, he prefers hilly ones over a flat one and that is about it. It's on why Rogla is an Olympic champion, on where he demolished the competition on a long ITT. As for Rogla not being good on last ITT at a GT, you based such assumption solely on the Tour 2020. Last years Giro comes to mind, to easily refute such claims and hence recovery can't be that bad either. As for climbing and comparison against Pogi and Jonas. Rogla doesn't tend to attack on such terrain, like all the time, but when it's important he can do just that or go mano a mano with anybody, including Pogi and Jonas. Last climbing stage at Tour 2020 and Angliru at Vuetla 2023, he came across the finish line first. On top of that if JV would race for Rogla from day 1 and wouldn't be so caught up in the internal team politics, on how it might look if Rogla to win the race. Then Rogla would highly likely win Vuelta 2023. As for number 100%. If Jonas will skip the Tour and go to Vuelta, to be at 100%, lets see if anybody can prevent Rogla securing a double this year. As otherwise i do get it, Jonas was not 100% at the Tour if he won't win it and so Rogla will have to go against 100% Jonas at the next edition. Well, fine by me.
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Well, you talked about Col de la Loze, another good example of what i talked about.

What was the gap between Roglic and the others? Miguel angel Lopez won the stage, and Roglic had a gap of 15 s to Pogacar, and 45 s to Richie Porte.

Now look at the gaps Vingegaard made last year on col de la loze. Adam yates 2 minutes, Carlos Rodriguez 3 min, simon yates 1 min and half, and after what happened to Pogacar he didn't go deep.

You can also look to the gaps Roglic created on Angliru last year, 19 s to Landa, 44 s to wout poels, and compare to the gaps on hautacam stage in the Tour 2022 or the Tourmalet stage of last year at the Tour. The others riders just finished 2/3 minutes later.

I didn’t said Roglic is a bad climber or time trialist, simply i think the other two are on a league of his own.
 
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bNator

bNator

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Berniece said:
What are you talking about? Vingegaard has beaten Roglic in uphill sprints and Narvaez couple of days ago on the flat.
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What are you talking about? What has Roglic beating Pog have to to with Vingegaard (supposedly) outsprinting Roglic. But just out of curiosity - when did that happen?

I'm not saying noone has ever outsprinted Pog ever... What I'm talking about is that noone has ever outsprinted Pog like Rogla did in that Emillia. If Narvaez is the best you can come up with, you're gonna have to try much harder, I'm afraid.
 
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Red Rick

Red Rick

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bNator said:
What are you talking about? What has Roglic beating Pog have to to with Vingegaard (supposedly) outsprinting Roglic. But just out of curiosity - when did that happen?

I'm not saying noone has ever outsprinted Pog ever... What I'm talking about is that noone has ever outsprinted Pog like Rogla did in that Emillia. If Narvaez is the best you can come up with, you're gonna have to try much harder, I'm afraid.
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I think this is TdF stage 6 of the 2022 Tour.

You know, the day when Van Aert when into a solo breakaway for no reasin, giftwrapping the uphill sprint stage to Pogacar, and when Roglic had a broken back, and still tried to start the sprint from a long way out.
 
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Froome

Froome

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CyclistAbi said:
I see, now you will claim JV only raced full gas with Jonas, like if they had some sort of switch. And i guess, on all other races, they were preparing Rogla to stomp, by keeping competition fresh?

Ajajajaj.
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Let's take a example.

Do you remind the stage of Tourmalet in the Tour of last year? Do you think Visma would make the race hard in the Tourmalet for a a Roglic attack? They would never do with Roglic what they did on that stage.

If Roglic was the leader, Visma would take it easy on Tourmalet, and then just make the race hard on Cauterets, for Roglic making the famous stomp in the steep final part.
 
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Rackham

Rackham

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I don't read any of these arguments anymore, i.e. Roglič has a date with destiny (providence?) in July, aka where he'll roll the dice & give it everything he's got. Maybe it'll have a fairy-tale finale, maybe not.

But I'm pretty sure small arguments about his preferred racing style, tactics or his own physical capabilities no longer matter at all. I mean who cares what Vingegaard can or cannot do better than him, it's immaterial.

Rog has one job to do & he's going to do it, come what may. And as leader of Red Bull Bora hansgrohe in France this summer, he'll have the freedom to choose which stages he follows on versus the stages he attacks on.
 
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