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Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

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joe_papp

joe_papp

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yaco said:
Carapaz has failed in GC since finishing 2nd to Hindley in the 2022 Giro, so I have no expectations on his performance.
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At +2200 [implied probability of approx 4%]. neither do I! Still genuinely placed the bet though. hehe

Anyway, after reading the recent cn report, including comments below, it doesn't look good for PR to contend at the Vuelta, eh? Not exactly the kind of race (or injury) you can use to "ride into form" (or "heal"!).

“Primoz is not in good shape yet,” sports director Patxi Vila told El Diario Vasco on Wednesday before his non-start in San Sebastian was confirmed. “He’s still got pains in his back after falling in the Tour.
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CyclistAbi

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Berniece said:
Was Fred Wright sanctioned after the stage?
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The point here is the blame game is actually rather useless as the result is still the same, crashes and injuries involved. It's about raising awareness and through it changing future behaviour. As a member of the pro peloton, doing something foolish, you should be able to rely on your fellow pelotoner, to cover your back. To act appropriately and to kindly remind you, through relegation, you need to up your game. At Tour 2024 Wout already setting an example. It's a process.

Even we, the fans, on the opposite sides of the opinion now came to the same conclusions. That is although we see rider A and rider B in reversed roles, on who sees who and who is coming from behind, and things like that. Who cares, what we ended up agreeing on is the rider that had better overview, on what was going on, had some other options at disposal. That is using brakes and resulting to relegation. A golden standard in such situations. As back in the day they just went through, regardless. Fans loved it, till the morning after.
 
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Berniece

Berniece

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CyclistAbi said:
The point here is the blame game is actually rather useless as the result is still the same, crashes and injuries involved. It's about raising awareness and through it changing future behaviour. As a member of the pro peloton, doing something foolish, you should be able to rely on your fellow pelotoner, to cover your back. To act appropriately and to kindly remind you, through relegation, you need to up your game. At Tour 2024 Wout already setting an example. It's a process.

Even we, the fans, on the opposite sides of the opinion now came to the same conclusions. That is although we see rider A and rider B in reversed roles, on who sees who and who is coming from behind, and things like that. Who cares, what we ended up agreeing on is the rider that had better overview, on what was going on, had some other options at disposal. That is using brakes and resulting to relegation. A golden standard in such situations. As back in the day they just went through, regardless. Fans loved it, till the morning after.
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So he wasn’t sanctioned, he didn’t do anything wrong. Roglic’’s own fault then.
 
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CyclistAbi

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Berniece said:
Why would he be sanctioned? He crashed that was a sanction by itself
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So basically what you are saying is members of pro peloton should just do whatever they want as the result of their actions will always be just? In that case why are then we even discussing such things as blame in the first place. Why are fans so invested in determining blame and instant justice? Anyway, i doubt that even you believe in that to be the right way (forward) and will just read this as the end of the rope kind of argument.

This was a high profile safety related incident and as such it makes sense to drag it along, for a while, serving the purpose of behavioural adjustments. Names of the riders not really playing a big role here. For example Wout could have easily crash out Philipsen and send him to hospital at the Tour. Fans would likely even cheer the move, there are no firm rules preventing Wout in doing that and hence he could get away with it. Still. Wout rather did on what we discussed here in depth and that should be an example on how modern pro peloton operates.

But i know it's a slow process and it involves a change. Basically the same thing as the Miss World contest. Used to be more about lean legs and things like that and then somebody noticed participants actually have a brain. Short term that can represent a problem, on the long term IMHO it's the way to go.

MLKarlos said:
When do they have to officially announce the Vuelta team?
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Soon!
 
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Berniece

Berniece

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CyclistAbi said:
So basically what you are saying is members of pro peloton should just do whatever they want as the result of their actions will always be just? In that case why are then we even discussing such things as blame in the first place. Why are fans so invested in determining blame and instant justice? Anyway, i doubt that even you believe in that to be the right way (forward) and will just read this as the end of the rope kind of argument.

This was a high profile safety related incident and as such it makes sense to drag it along, for a while, serving the purpose of behavioural adjustments. Names of the riders not really playing a big role here. For example Wout could have easily crash out Philipsen and send him to hospital at the Tour. Fans would likely even cheer the move, there are no firm rules preventing Wout in doing that and hence he could get away with it. Still. Wout rather did on what we discussed here in depth and that should be an example on how modern pro peloton operates.

But i know it's a slow process and it involves a change. Basically the same thing as the Miss World contest. Used to be more about lean legs and things like that and then somebody noticed participants actually have a brain. Short term that can represent a problem, on the long term IMHO it's the way to go.



Soon!
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That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying in this specific instance it was Roglic’s own fault that he crashed, and Fred Wright wasn’t sanctioned so it definitely wasn’t his fault.

I don’t see any need to discuss this specific instance any further but I get that in the Roglic topic people like to think about what might have been, and look for someone to blame besides the guy that crashes during almost all its GT’s
 
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CyclistAbi

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Berniece said:
That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying in this specific instance ...
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I see, this specific instance only ...

I don’t see any need to discuss this specific instance any further ...
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That is the thing. This needed to be discuses further, for at least some good to come out of it. As we seen at Tour 2024, use brakes then relegate. That other approach doesn't belong in modern pro peloton any more.

but I get that in the Roglic topic people like to think about what might have been, and look for someone to blame besides the guy that crashes during almost all its GT’s
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Yeah, people don't have much on Rogla, bar the usual suspects. Age, ski jumping ... So from time to time they come in this thread and start to set things Wright. But actually i thank them for it, without them Wout likely would have crashed out Philipsen and send him to hospital, fans likely even defending him for it.

So thanks to all in playing their role. We made it through, together. Congrats guys.
 
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VayaVayaVaya

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A lot of bad takes here:
  • @Berniece Lack of sanction is not evidence of not having done anything wrong; it’s just evidence that the race jury decided not to assess a sanction. This could be because they determined Wright had done nothing wrong or because they felt they lacked evidence either way, or he’d don’t something wrong but not enough to warrant sanction or because they had some sort of interpersonal or political reason, etc. There are much better arguments for Wright having done nothing wrong.
  • @red_flanders I’m not sure why you think Roglic came from behind. His mistake was coming in from the side and trying to slot in in front or alongside Wright instead of behind him. Wright definitely clips Roglic from behind.
  • I just rewatched a few times and it looks like Roglic and Wright simultaneously dip slightly toward one another, causing contact. Wright likely was worried Roglic was going to squeeze him into the barriers and asserted his presence. I don’t see how you can particularly argue this was on Wright. Roglic should have dropped to the back, not swooped in on him.
  • Roglic falls way too often, we all agree, and he should have owned up to that rather than blaming Wright.
  • This argument is stale and a waste of time, particularly because both sides seem committed to exonerating one side and painting the other side the villain; like so much in life, this is not representative of reality.
Anyways, I hope Roglic is riding the Vuelta and can avoid crashing.
 
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Oldermanish

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veganrob said:
I'm basing part of my opinion on his inability to stay on his bike. The crashes just keep coming for him. At some point you have to ask is it just bad luck or him.
And Bora may have another GC rider for the tour next year. Just sayin'.
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As for the luck; it's much of his tactical riding that leaves him in the kill zone. The wreck with Wright is an old wound that he should forget and not duplicate. As for being taken out by a notoriously aggressive sprinter or a rider trying to surf over a center median, wiping out a chunk of the peloton; sometimes it's bad luck if there is such a thing. There is a definitely higher level of speed in events and a corresponding lack of pack courtesy. For that you can almost categorically blame the DSs and the ability to control race actions via radios. It's my old prejudice but we just witnessed two of the best road races in memory and they were both in the Olympics without radio communication. Roads were super narrow and cobbled yet the outcome seemed completely appropriate for the effort.
I doubt Primoz will improve his pack skill ability much, unfortunately.
 
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CyclistAbi

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Oldermanish said:
I doubt Primoz will improve his pack skill ability much, unfortunately.
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But then again Rogla is not that bad at it to begin with. Remember that all riders crash, without exception. I mean maybe there was a rider in pro peloton that never crashed and rode for a couple of years. If there ever was one it would be interesting to see the achievements. That is if being the GOAT non-crasher was the greatest achievement or where there any other results involved too. They'll figure it out for the Tour too, on how to avoid impossible crashes. The rest is good. Normal crashes.
 
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