Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[CyclistAbi]

This thread have made me lose all hope in humanity

It's the reverse, humanity is entering pro peloton. It's a slow process.

 

[Berniece]

The point here is the blame game is actually rather useless as the result is still the same, crashes and injuries involved. It's about raising awareness and through it changing future behaviour. As a member of the pro peloton, doing something foolish, you should be able to rely on your fellow pelotoner, to cover your back. To act appropriately and to kindly remind you, through relegation, you need to up your game. At Tour 2024 Wout already setting an example. It's a process.

Even we, the fans, on the opposite sides of the opinion now came to the same conclusions. That is although we see rider A and rider B in reversed roles, on who sees who and who is coming from behind, and things like that. Who cares, what we ended up agreeing on is the rider that had better overview, on what was going on, had some other options at disposal. That is using brakes and resulting to relegation. A golden standard in such situations. As back in the day they just went through, regardless. Fans loved it, till the morning after.

So he wasn’t sanctioned, he didn’t do anything wrong. Roglic’’s own fault then.

 

[CyclistAbi]

So he wasn’t sanctioned, he didn’t do anything wrong. Roglic’’s own fault then.

Roglič wasn't sanctioned either, so it's not his fault. That is if we want to play it dumb. And if you will just disregard any discussion as such.

 

[Berniece]

Roglič wasn't sanctioned either, so it's not his fault. That is if we want to play it dumb. And if you will just disregard any discussion as such.

Why would he be sanctioned? He crashed that was a sanction by itself

 

[MLKarlos]

When do they have to officially announce the Vuelta team?

 

[QueenStagiaire]

When do they have to officially announce the Vuelta team?

Before the team presentation I think, Wednesday at the latest (at least that‘s about the time the Vuelta will publish the start list) Of course Roglič could still come in as a replacement on Friday, but that‘s not the way you prepare races with your leader.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Why would he be sanctioned? He crashed that was a sanction by itself

So basically what you are saying is members of pro peloton should just do whatever they want as the result of their actions will always be just? In that case why are then we even discussing such things as blame in the first place. Why are fans so invested in determining blame and instant justice? Anyway, i doubt that even you believe in that to be the right way (forward) and will just read this as the end of the rope kind of argument.

This was a high profile safety related incident and as such it makes sense to drag it along, for a while, serving the purpose of behavioural adjustments. Names of the riders not really playing a big role here. For example Wout could have easily crash out Philipsen and send him to hospital at the Tour. Fans would likely even cheer the move, there are no firm rules preventing Wout in doing that and hence he could get away with it. Still. Wout rather did on what we discussed here in depth and that should be an example on how modern pro peloton operates.

But i know it's a slow process and it involves a change. Basically the same thing as the Miss World contest. Used to be more about lean legs and things like that and then somebody noticed participants actually have a brain. Short term that can represent a problem, on the long term IMHO it's the way to go.

When do they have to officially announce the Vuelta team?

Soon!

 

[Berniece]

So basically what you are saying is members of pro peloton should just do whatever they want as the result of their actions will always be just? In that case why are then we even discussing such things as blame in the first place. Why are fans so invested in determining blame and instant justice? Anyway, i doubt that even you believe in that to be the right way (forward) and will just read this as the end of the rope kind of argument.

This was a high profile safety related incident and as such it makes sense to drag it along, for a while, serving the purpose of behavioural adjustments. Names of the riders not really playing a big role here. For example Wout could have easily crash out Philipsen and send him to hospital at the Tour. Fans would likely even cheer the move, there are no firm rules preventing Wout in doing that and hence he could get away with it. Still. Wout rather did on what we discussed here in depth and that should be an example on how modern pro peloton operates.

But i know it's a slow process and it involves a change. Basically the same thing as the Miss World contest. Used to be more about lean legs and things like that and then somebody noticed participants actually have a brain. Short term that can represent a problem, on the long term IMHO it's the way to go.



Soon!

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying in this specific instance it was Roglic’s own fault that he crashed, and Fred Wright wasn’t sanctioned so it definitely wasn’t his fault.

I don’t see any need to discuss this specific instance any further but I get that in the Roglic topic people like to think about what might have been, and look for someone to blame besides the guy that crashes during almost all its GT’s

 

[Netserk]

Why would he be sanctioned?

"So he wasn’t sanctioned, he didn’t do anything wrong."

 

[CyclistAbi]

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying in this specific instance ...

I see, this specific instance only ...

I don’t see any need to discuss this specific instance any further ...

That is the thing. This needed to be discuses further, for at least some good to come out of it. As we seen at Tour 2024, use brakes then relegate. That other approach doesn't belong in modern pro peloton any more.

but I get that in the Roglic topic people like to think about what might have been, and look for someone to blame besides the guy that crashes during almost all its GT’s

Yeah, people don't have much on Rogla, bar the usual suspects. Age, ski jumping ... So from time to time they come in this thread and start to set things Wright. But actually i thank them for it, without them Wout likely would have crashed out Philipsen and send him to hospital, fans likely even defending him for it.

So thanks to all in playing their role. We made it through, together. Congrats guys.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

A lot of bad takes here:

• @Berniece Lack of sanction is not evidence of not having done anything wrong; it’s just evidence that the race jury decided not to assess a sanction. This could be because they determined Wright had done nothing wrong or because they felt they lacked evidence either way, or he’d don’t something wrong but not enough to warrant sanction or because they had some sort of interpersonal or political reason, etc. There are much better arguments for Wright having done nothing wrong.
• @red_flanders I’m not sure why you think Roglic came from behind. His mistake was coming in from the side and trying to slot in in front or alongside Wright instead of behind him. Wright definitely clips Roglic from behind.
• I just rewatched a few times and it looks like Roglic and Wright simultaneously dip slightly toward one another, causing contact. Wright likely was worried Roglic was going to squeeze him into the barriers and asserted his presence. I don’t see how you can particularly argue this was on Wright. Roglic should have dropped to the back, not swooped in on him.
• Roglic falls way too often, we all agree, and he should have owned up to that rather than blaming Wright.
• This argument is stale and a waste of time, particularly because both sides seem committed to exonerating one side and painting the other side the villain; like so much in life, this is not representative of reality.

Anyways, I hope Roglic is riding the Vuelta and can avoid crashing.

 

[zlev11]

This thread have made me lose all hope in humanity

you mean you still had it after 3 years on this forum?

 

[Oldermanish]

I'm basing part of my opinion on his inability to stay on his bike. The crashes just keep coming for him. At some point you have to ask is it just bad luck or him.
And Bora may have another GC rider for the tour next year. Just sayin'.

As for the luck; it's much of his tactical riding that leaves him in the kill zone. The wreck with Wright is an old wound that he should forget and not duplicate. As for being taken out by a notoriously aggressive sprinter or a rider trying to surf over a center median, wiping out a chunk of the peloton; sometimes it's bad luck if there is such a thing. There is a definitely higher level of speed in events and a corresponding lack of pack courtesy. For that you can almost categorically blame the DSs and the ability to control race actions via radios. It's my old prejudice but we just witnessed two of the best road races in memory and they were both in the Olympics without radio communication. Roads were super narrow and cobbled yet the outcome seemed completely appropriate for the effort.
I doubt Primoz will improve his pack skill ability much, unfortunately.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I doubt Primoz will improve his pack skill ability much, unfortunately.

But then again Rogla is not that bad at it to begin with. Remember that all riders crash, without exception. I mean maybe there was a rider in pro peloton that never crashed and rode for a couple of years. If there ever was one it would be interesting to see the achievements. That is if being the GOAT non-crasher was the greatest achievement or where there any other results involved too. They'll figure it out for the Tour too, on how to avoid impossible crashes. The rest is good. Normal crashes.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@velaso montador

Don't be such a doomer.

 

[velaso montador]

They'll figure it out for the Tour too, on how to avoid impossible crashes. The rest is good. Normal crashes.

Figure out what? Figure out how to become better? The guy is soon 35, the show is over move on.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Figure out what? Figure out how to become better? The guy is soon 35, the show is over move on.

Remco, behave.

 

[velaso montador]

Remco, behave.

Bought myself a Remco bike gotte play the part. But seriously Roglic stock is kinda low I hate to be that guy but to be real the Tour for him is a pipe dream at this point doesnt mean he cant still add to his palmares in other areas.

Also father time is real.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@velaso montador

Then don't be that guy, if you hate him. Be more like Rogla, or Remco. Anyway, lets first see if Rogla will enlist at Vuelta, fingers crossed. Tour is something not al that important at this point in time.

 

[velaso montador]

Its not rude to say Roglic winning the Tour is a pipe dream at this point I would argue im helpful to you.

Indeed Roglic winning the Vuelta would put a smile on my face so lets hope for that agreed.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Its not rude to say Roglic winning the Tour is a pipe dream at this point I would argue im helpful to you.

Indeed Roglic winning the Vuelta would put a smile on my face so lets hope for that agreed.

Tour is not important ATM. We can discuss Tour next season. For this season there is still a possibility to win a GT and a one day race event. If Rogla achieves that, then i am counting this season as being a successful one. We'll see.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Tour is not important ATM. We can discuss Tour next season. For this season there is still a possibility to win a GT and a one day race event. If Rogla achieves that, then i am counting this season as being a successful one. We'll see.

Which one day race are you talking about? Lombardia?

 

[dazaau]

Tour is not important ATM. We can discuss Tour next season. For this season there is still a possibility to win a GT and a one day race event. If Rogla achieves that, then i am counting this season as being a successful one. We'll see.

Next year's tour isn't worthy of discussion but Wright and the 2022 Vuelta is?

I hope he starts and we can all move on to something relevant soon.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Which one day race are you talking about? Lombardia?

Lombardia is a race on where i feel Rogla is now experienced enough, to go for it, the win. There will likely be some prep races too, so that might be a goal too. Will be interesting to see if Rogla instead sacrifices results in prep races for the main goal. And then obviously another big goal will likely be WC RR. Rogla was never a world champion before and hence time is now right to tick that one off the list. Due to the stunt Pogi pulled, regarding Olympics, i feel that selection in the national team is now more or less a given. That is for as long as Murn is the national coach i feel that both Rogla and Pogi will have a spot reserved for them and hence lets collect some medals.

So in short Lombardia or WC RR, if healthy, i feel that Rogla will win one of those two this season.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Next year's tour isn't worthy of discussion but Wright and the 2022 Vuelta is?

I hope he starts and we can all move on to something relevant soon.

Pretty much. I don't know on why Tour 2025 should be discussed at this point. In addition Vuelta was much more giving and earns way more respect. So sidelining Tour for now is the appropriate thing to do. Wait for your turn!