Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[RedheadDane]

In general i agree just about the last part. It's the Tour. They should neglect other stories.

The other stories are part of the Tour.

 

[CyclistAbi]

The other stories are part of the Tour.

Maybe a television show about Vuelta then?

P.S. But considering the filed. This year edition of Vuelta might end up being on Tour levels anyway. We'll see.

 

[RedheadDane]

Maybe a television show about Vuelta then?

With the same Multiple Teams approach? Would also incluse several stories.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Keep Netflix out of sport!!!!!

 

[CyclistAbi]

@RedheadDane

But OK if you insist. There is a story in the writing. Been like that for a while now. Nothing too corny and still it's a Tour material. Lets say in the Legends of the Fall league.

You see. I am not really a time traveler that came back from the future to teach people on this beautiful planet and cyclist like Pidcock the importance of sunscreen. I mean good thing that i took this as a day job. A lot of work left to do. The truth is i read a book about cycling in this particular era and one cyclist caught my interest. All i can say is be patient as great things are still to come. On top of all the ones that already happened.

 

[RedheadDane]

But OK if you insist. There is a story in the writing. Been like that for a while now. Nothing too corny and still it's a Tour material. Lets say in the Legends of the Fall league.

Several stories.

 

[Extinction]

Even if we accept the point of view Roglic could have continued the Tour (which is what that cycling news article is premised upon), a real debate worth having would be "is this even worth it?". It's just the Tour. He was co-leader, he crashed, he did his work on stage 11 & now he's done. Would quitting even be a 'sacrilege' if he could theoretically continue the race? I don't think so.

The Tour drives people insane & decisions which are logical in other races (i.e. withdrawing a rider in sub-optimal condition for future goals) is apparently a severe 'party foul' (to quote Lance Armstrong) in the TdF. If it's the yellow jersey which changes everything, then Roglic already played a huge role in giving Vingegaard his lead so he's done his duty (that's an understatement, i.e. Jumbo owes him big time for everything in this Tour & also everything which came before in previous years).

I reject the Tour > rider philosophy. Roglic has one career & that's it, i.e. once he's done, it's over. No one who's demanding he finishes this race will give a sh*t about him next week. He doesn't owe the masses anything, i.e. certainly not busting-up his season (or worse) in their summer colosseum games known as the TdF.

To the first bolded, you might have an argument were it not for the fact that the team has a yellow jersey to defend. So "worth it to him" must be secondary to "worth it to the team and, above all, the yellow jersey." And like the economy, nothing exists in a vacuum, thus no rider's career is made on his legs alone, but that of team support, on and off the road. Consequently, I think it is incumbant upon a rider, no matter how well established, to sacrifice his own ambitions when the call of duty arises, especially when that calling is bound to offering whatever services one is capable of giving to chaperone teammate in yellow to Paris.

And this connects to the second bolded, the Tour and its golden fleece are the highest achievments in the sport, for which I regect your regection of Tour > rider philosophy. I've been following cycling for nearly 40 years and the Tour is Olympus. It alone brings the type of international corporate sponsorship that allows cycling to exist at such a level, to which all riders are thus indebted. Besides the Olympics, it is the largest watched sporting event in the world. For a sport that pales in comparison, revenues wise and in terms of popularity, to World Cup football/soccer or even Formula 1 that is truely remarkable. This alone commands that the Tour must be respected.

Once upon a time there was an unwritten code of honor, or rather a sacred pact, teams and riders made with the Grand Bouclé: only physical imparement or being too exhausted to continue (broom wagon) or finishing outside the time limit were legitimate reasons to abandon. It's not for nothing that French journalist, Albert Londres, already in 1924, covering the Tour was struck by the similarity of the mood and moral of the riders to the convicted subjected to hard labor in France's brutal penal colonies. Overcome by sympathy for the riders and awed by their courage, Londres wrote "truly these are the convicts of the road."

Over the years the Tour has changed massively, but the challenge remains the same. Failure to finish is not an option in a race where so few have succeeded, all the more so when the team leader is in yellow. Little wonder the riders still talk of being trapped within the race, prisoners to the hugeness of the Tour.

So perhaps my age and romanticism are too anachronistic for today's younger generation. So be it, but I prefer romanticism to cynycism and calculated business affairs. At all events, Vive le Tour!

 

[Extinction]

The point is that neither you nor York know if Primoz is capable of that.

And neither do you, which is why I said all are hypetheses. However, based on York's experience, and to a much more humble extent my own, if Roglic's injuries were that serious he would not have been able to continue period. This is why I conclude that the injuries are secondary to using them as an excuse to exit early to prepare for the Vuelta. Some may approve, which is their prerogative, although some like York may beg to differ. And for the reasons stated I would agree.

 

[RedheadDane]

So perhaps my age and romanticism is too anachronistic for today's younger generation. So be it, and I prefer romanticism to cynycism and calculated business affairs. At all events, Vive le Tour!

And you don't think it's cynical to claim that an injured guy should continue for what is ultimately just a race?

However, based on York's experience, and to a much more humble extent my own, if Roglic's injuries were that serious he would not have been able to continue period.

I know I've brought him up before, but again; does Pinot 2020 ring any bells? He was able to continue, then it took over a year for his back to get back in order. Is that what you want for Roglic?

 

[Rackham]

To the first bolded, you might have an argument were it not for the fact that the team has a yellow jersey to defend. So "worth it to him" must be secondary to "worth it to the team and, above all, the yellow jersey." And like the economy, nothing exists in a vacuum, thus no rider's career is made on his legs alone, but that of team support, on and off the road. Consequently, I think it is incumbant upon a rider, no matter how well established, to sacrifice his own ambitions when the call of duty arises, especially when that calling is bound to offering whatever services one is capable of giving to chaperone teammate in yellow to Paris.

And this connects to the second bolded, the Tour and its golden fleece are the highest achievments in the sport, for which I regect your regection of Tour > rider philosophy. I've been following cycling for nearly 40 years and the Tour is Olympus. It alone brings the type of international corporate sponsorship that allows cycling to exist at such a level, to which all riders are thus indebted. Besides the Olympics, it is the largest watched sporting event in the world. For a sport that pales in comparison, revenues wise and in terms of popularity, to World Cup football/soccer or even Formula 1 that is truely remarkable. This alone commands that the Tour must be respected.

Once upon a time there was an unwritten code of honor, or rather a sacred pact, teams and riders made with the Grand Bouclé: only physical imparement or being too exhausted to continue (broom wagon) or finishing outside the time limit were legitimate reasons to abandon. It's not for nothing that French journalist, Albert Londres, already in 1924, covering the Tour was struck by the similarity of the mood and moral of the riders to the convicted subjected to hard labor in France's brutal penal colonies. Overcome by sympathy for the riders and awed by their courage, Londres wrote "truly these are the convicts of the road."

Over the years the Tour has changed massively, but the challenge remains the same. Failure to finish is not an option in a race where so few have succeeded, all the more so when the team leader is in yellow. Little wonder the riders still talk of being trapped within the race, prisoners to the hugeness of the Tour.

So perhaps my age and romanticism are too anachronistic for today's younger generation. So be it, but I prefer romanticism to cynycism and calculated business affairs. At all events, Vive le Tour!

This is all eloquently said & rather heartfelt, something I can respect. I also know full well tradition & the foundations of sport are getting trampled upon (usually by short-term economic interests). I know that. Shorter stages, lack of ITT, absence of historical cols/routes & major cities which no longer want to host stage departures or arrivals etc.

But there's a grain de sable aka a small caveat in this story which is unique to Jumbo Visma & Primoz Roglic, i.e. beyond the debate regarding his injury & its severity (a circular argument in a sense), there's the simple fact in the scheme of things, Jumbo is more beholden to Roglic than people probably realize. He has earned their respect 10 times over. This isn't a standard case of xyz rider doing his duty for his sponsor, no, he made them what they are in GT's. His record in terms of wins & hit ratio in stage races speaks for itself. No, he didn't accomplish all this in a vacuum but no matter the revolving door of support riders, he always delivered either a win or a near miss. Before Vingegaard, Jumbo had two champions, i.e. Roglic & Wout van Aert. Roglic was first.

Even the official team narrative regarding Vingegaard's rise is Roglic helped in every which way possible, i.e. mentoring him & convincing Jumbo to back him last year. Jumbo & Vingegaard wouldn't be in the position they're in today without Roglic. That applies to their UCI standings as much as the GC standings in this Tour (Vingegaard's lead owing to Rogla's sacrifice last week on stage 11). So if we're reducing this down to a matter of 'honor', the onus was on Jumbo & Vingegaard to show honor in placing Roglic's own long-term wellbeing (both physical & in terms of personal objectives) above themselves, especially insofar as they have a handsome advantage already.

This is probably the part many onlookers who comment on this story without knowing the full internal situation at Jumbo might not understand. It means Vingegaard couldn't possibly demand Roglic sacrifice his health (or even his own chance to enter the history books with a 4th straight Vuelta) considering everything Roglic has already done for him, i.e. both in this Tour & over the past couple of years. It would be itself morally wrong.

So you might be a 'romanticist' with regards to the Tour de France, whereas I view this from a standpoint pertaining to Jumbo's own internal situation, i.e. one with its own rules & specific definition of 'honor' separate from the TdF & only applicable to themselves & their own riders.

 

[Eeslliw]

And neither do you, which is why I said all are hypetheses. However, based on York's experience, and to a much more humble extent my own, if Roglic's injuries were that serious he would not have been able to continue period. This is why I conclude that the injuries are secondary to using them as an excuse to exit early to prepare for the Vuelta. Some may approve, which is their prerogative, although some like York may beg to differ. And for the reasons stated I would agree.

Does your head comprehend that you can actually make injuries and pain worse when you keep riding after a hard crash? Your whole assumption is beacuse he could ride after the crash he must be okay to ride for another 16 days. And TDF is a race where you can ride easy pace, "lick your wounds" and recover (Answer is no, ofcourse).

But nah, Roglic unable to follow peloton on a climb in first 20 km of the race is normal, he should stay and honour the race.

 

[gregrowlerson]

I see I have a bit to catch up on in here.

 

[tobydawq]

It was always in between Rogla and Pogi for this Tour edition. But there was a plot and a twist involved. Rogla would and did get a backstab from his team for the other JV member to win this Tour edition. This is hence a proper Tour edition. Hopefully Netflix doesn't spoil it by making a soap opera out of it. And hopefully not a horror story. Just take it for what it is. It's the Tour.

Get a grip. There was no backstabbing. Roglic crashed, not because he wasn't taken care of but because he was damned unlucky. Then Vingegaard was the better rider if he wasn't already before and there was no choice but to ride for him.

And I like Roglic a lot more than Vingegaard and hoped that things would come together for him this year but your ridiculous accusations of backstabbing are really tiring.

 

[Extinction]

Well

This is all eloquently said & rather heartfelt, something I can respect. I also know full well tradition & the foundations of sport are getting trampled upon (usually by short-term economic interests). I know that. Shorter stages, lack of ITT, absence of historical cols/routes & major cities which no longer want to host stage departures or arrivals etc.

But there's a grain de sable aka a small caveat in this story which is unique to Jumbo Visma & Primoz Roglic, i.e. beyond the debate regarding his injury & its severity (a circular argument in a sense), there's the simple fact in the scheme of things, Jumbo is more beholden to Roglic than people probably realize. He has earned their respect 10 times over. This isn't a standard case of xyz rider doing his duty for his sponsor, no, he made them what they are in GT's. His record in terms of wins & hit ratio in stage races speaks for itself. No, he didn't accomplish all this in a vacuum but no matter the revolving door of support riders, he always delivered either a win or a near miss. Before Vingegaard, Jumbo had two champions, i.e. Roglic & Wout van Aert. Roglic was first.

Even the official team narrative regarding Vingegaard's rise is Roglic helped in every which way possible, i.e. mentoring him & convincing Jumbo to back him last year. Jumbo & Vingegaard wouldn't be in the position they're in today without Roglic. That applies to their UCI standings as much as the GC standings in this Tour (Vingegaard's lead owing to Rogla's sacrifice last week on stage 11). So if we're reducing this down to a matter of 'honor', the onus was on Jumbo & Vingegaard to show honor in placing Roglic's own long-term wellbeing (both physical & in terms of personal objectives) above themselves, especially insofar as they have a handsome advantage already.

This is probably the part many onlookers who comment on this story without knowing the full internal situation at Jumbo might not understand. It means Vingegaard couldn't possibly demand Roglic sacrifice his health (or even his own chance to enter the history books with a 4th straight Vuelta) considering everything Roglic has already done for him, i.e. both in this Tour & over the past couple of years. It would be itself morally wrong.

So you might be a 'romanticist' with regards to the Tour de France, whereas I view this from a standpoint pertaining to Jumbo's own internal situation, i.e. one with its own rules & specific definition of 'honor' separate from the TdF & only applicable to themselves & their own riders.

Well said and you are probably seeing things much more level headed than myself. I'm also thinking, however, when Contador fell hard in 2014 and carried on till it was painfully obvious that he could simply not continue in the race. Is that the case with Roglic? Would continuing have jeopardized the rest of the season? His remaining career? I tend to think not and with Vingegaard in yellow perhaps now the Vuelta should not be the team's priority or even his.

But I like your reasoning too.

 

[Extinction]

Does your head comprehend that you can actually make injuries and pain worse when you keep riding after a hard crash? Your whole assumption is beacuse he could ride after the crash he must be okay to ride for another 16 days. And TDF is a race where you can ride easy pace, "lick your wounds" and recover (Answer is no, ofcourse).

But nah, Roglic unable to follow peloton on a climb in first 20 km of the race is normal, he should stay and honour the race.

Oh I comprehend that very well, but only suspect this might not be his case under the present circumstances.

 

[acm]

And neither do you, which is why I said all are hypetheses. However, based on York's experience, and to a much more humble extent my own, if Roglic's injuries were that serious he would not have been able to continue period. This is why I conclude that the injuries are secondary to using them as an excuse to exit early to prepare for the Vuelta. Some may approve, which is their prerogative, although some like York may beg to differ. And for the reasons stated I would agree.

I'm pretty sure I have a relevant source who said that in reality his injuries are really bad. Worse than last year. So that's why I can't stand these accusations.

 

[bNator]

I'm pretty sure I have a relevant source who said that in reality his injuries are really bad. Worse than last year. So that's why I can't stand these accusations.

Brajkovič?

 

[bNator]

Oh I comprehend that very well, but only suspect this might not be his case under the present circumstances.

In your opinion - was he pretending to not be able to follow peloton on a climb in first 20 km of the race?

 

[HelloDolly]

You said Roglic should go to a small team if he wants to be 'leader' at the TdF. History says Jumbo was a small team until he started winning again, again & again. Then WvA was added & the rest is history.

But if you think B&B Hotels would be Rogla's level if he wants team leadership in the TdF... then I'm not the one with extreme bias.

well B&B have a new sponsor next year (supermarket giant Carrefour) and will have a budget of 20 million euros
So you know very little of small or large teams

 

[acm]

Brajkovič?

No, he doesn't know Roglic or TJV very well. It doesn't matter who it is, the most important thing is that Roglic recovers now and can go to Vuelta.

 

[RedheadDane]

No, he doesn't know Roglic or TJV very well. It doesn't matter who it is, the most important thing is that Roglic recovers now and can go to Vuelta.

I would have assumed the management of the team deciding he isn't fit is a relevant source in itself.

 

[acm]

I would have assumed the management of the team deciding he isn't fit is a relevant source in itself.

Definitely.

 

[bNator]

I would have assumed the management of the team deciding he isn't fit is a relevant source in itself.

According to some guys on this board:

• Roglič was prentending he was helping Vinge when in fact he was racing for himself
• Roglič is lying when he is saying he is hurt
• Roglič is pretending to not be able to ride even at the beginning of the stages
• The TJV team is lying when they say he is injured and needs healing
• The team is lying when they say it was their decision for Roglic to abandon

All of the above simultanously...

 

[Extinction]

According to some guys on this board:

• Roglič was prentending he was helping Vinge when in fact he was racing for himself
• Roglič is lying when he is saying he is hurt
• Roglič is pretending to not be able to ride even at the beginning of the stages
• The TJV team is lying when they say he is injured and needs healing
• The team is lying when they say it was their decision for Roglic to abandon

All of the above simultanously...

No Roglic decided to leave with the blessing of his team, because hurt and wants to prepare for the Vuelta.

 

[RedheadDane]

No Roglic decided to leave with the blessing of his team, because hurt and wants to prepare for the Vuelta.

You're still ignoring the information that it was the team that made the decision that Roglic should leave, while he actually wanted to stay.