Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Volderke]

Thanks for posting this video. And now reading again what Roglič said:



Wright was coming from behind. Roglič didn't see him. As he doesn't have eyes on his back. While passing Roglič he rode the handlebars out of his hand. Just look at the distance on the road and the time it took. Maybe two meters and around a second. For it all to happen. On top of that Wright could observe for a couple of seconds. On what Roglič was doing. He knew Roglič will cut him off. Instead of pressing on the brakes he rode through aggressively. Just look at the moment of the contact. Wright was expecting the impact. He was prepared for it.

Hence if Roglič could be blamed for not seeing Wright. Wright was still riding too aggressive. As the rider coming from behind. He should press on the brakes and save the situation. Instead of pushing through aggressively and regardless of the outcome.

And lets not forget. This was strike two. One of the Bahrain sprinters already caused Roglič to abandon a GT race. Due to being too aggressive and causing Roglič to crash. At that time Roglič kept silent. And what good did that do him.

Now lets see if there will be a hero. That won't press on the brakes next time. When in similar situation involving Roglič.

As for the team backing Primož on this. In my opinion this is a good sign. For Jumbo Visma upper management to still put themself on the line like that. For Primož.

And for the people still claiming. No it was all Primož. You were feed this narrative for way too long. It needed a response.

Said all that i will go with Fred on this. It was a racing incident. Hence it's 50:50. Still it was needles incident and next time use brakes. You can still use the rider ahead as a lead out or to pass him on the other side. Or complain after the race you couldn't sprint as the rider blocked you. And he should improve in this regards. For that not to happen in the future. Instead of crashing yourself or the other one or both.

When I just change the names with Groenewegen and Jakobsen, you get this:

On top of that Jakobsen could observe for a couple of seconds. On what Groenewegen was doing. He knew Groenewegen will cut him off. Instead of pressing on the brakes he rode through aggressively. Just look at the moment of the contact.
…


and again: it’s not because Wright and Bahrain diplomatically leave it neutral and in the middle by calling it a racing incident in order not to add fuel to the fire (JV could learn a thing or 2 about being diplomatic), it is not 50/50. More like 100/0 or 99/1 with that 1% (allowing Roglic to take van Poppel’s wheel if Wright would be braking) not even a thing anymore in most so-called gentleman’s races.

 

[Rackham]

I love new Rog. He doesn't give a sh*t anymore. You think Mader stuff was "bad"? Wait for next season. Won't be boring that is for sure.

Yep. I mean there's seriously people out there who thought the Mäder incident was... accidental. Or something lost in translation (i.e. like Roglič didn't understand the 'ancient' rules of the peloton or something). Nah, he did in full awareness of everything. No sh*ts given. He's had a sort of quasi schoolboy image imposed upon him for marketing purposes & I think that's completely out the window now. I even remember reading stories about how Jumbo wanted Dumoulin to 'help' Rog with public relations & media interactions. Crazy.

He always had a reputation as the 'worst interviewee ever' in the peloton (i.e. Kate Wagner hilariously said her first phone call with him was so bad she thought he was a d*ck) but in reality it's just the story of a guy who comes from a very individual sport who's totally focused on his job, has no time for distractions & has very little care for what people write or say about him.

I think he's genuinely probably the nicest guy in the peloton but as a rider, he's a born winner. Jumbo needs to do a better job separating both & not have the former encroach upon the latter.

It means when he gets on a bike, it's all about win, win, win. Not gift, gift, gift.

And lets not forget. This was strike two. One of the Bahrain sprinters already caused Roglič to abandon a GT race. Due to being too aggressive and causing Roglič to crash. At that time Roglič kept silent. And what good did that do him.

One word: Bahrain.

A lot of people who aren't particularly attentive to Roglič's career won't know there's some serious underlying issues between Rog & Bahrain Victorious.

There's the Mäder incident (more meme worthy than anything), there's Colbrelli & now there's Wright. But there's also the shenanigans/intrigue in the Slovenian national team in which (at least according to Kate Wagner in a podcast a few weeks ago) was the scene of some drama last year after the Olympic games when Andrej Hauptman & UAE's Slovenians who helped Roglič become Olympic champion (he'd known him for a very long time & they had a very good relationship) were ousted in a sort of coup by Bahrain's Slovenians.

Roglič apparently thought this was total sh*t. So there's more going on here in this story than meets the eye.

My opinion? He's had an abominable year through no fault of his own. Disgusting bad luck & poor Jumbo management have destroyed his season. So despite the internet taking to arms to defend Fred Wright, he won't care. Just as he didn't care about Gino in Paris-Nice either. I also have my own opinions regarding his "own goal" as a result of being too nice to people on the road. He was nice with Pogačar, that backfired. He was nice with Vingegaard (mentored him basically), that backfired. He was nice when he dropped the Colbrelli incident & said nothing, that also eventually backfired.

His physiotherapist said Roglič is 'too nice' for this milieu so that's probably something he's now changed. I don't think he'll retire, he likes winning too much. I think he'll return, stomp & the internet will burn down again. As a fan I'm here for the spectacle, excitement & career path of a very unusual rider with a crazy personal story. It's only pro-sport, not the United Nations. So bring on next season already.

 

[acm]

There's the Mäder incident (more meme worthy than anything), there's Colbrelli & now there's Wright. But there's also the shenanigans/intrigue in the Slovenian national team in which (at least according to Kate Wagner in a podcast a few weeks ago) was the scene of some drama last year after the Olympic games when Andrej Hauptman & UAE's Slovenians who helped Roglič become Olympic champion (he'd known him for a very long time & they had a very good relationship) were ousted in a sort of coup by Bahrain's Slovenians.

Roglič apparently thought this was total sh*t. So there's more going on here in this story than meets the eye.

Where can I find that podcast? Thanks in advance.

 

[Rackham]

Where can I find that podcast? Thanks in advance.

Stage 24 - The Kate Wagner Experience - Bike Shop Society | Podcast on Spotify

The Roglič stuff starts at about the 57 minute mark. But it's all worth a listen IMO (pretty long though).

 

[Red Rick]

Yep. I mean there's seriously people out there who thought the Mäder incident was... accidental. Or something lost in translation (i.e. like Roglič didn't understand the 'ancient' rules of the peloton or something). Nah, he did in full awareness of everything. No sh*ts given. He's had a sort of quasi schoolboy image imposed upon him for marketing purposes & I think that's completely out the window now. I even remember reading stories about how Jumbo wanted Dumoulin to 'help' Rog with public relations & media interactions. Crazy.

He always had a reputation as the 'worst interviewee ever' in the peloton (i.e. Kate Wagner hilariously said her first phone call with him was so bad she thought he was a d*ck) but in reality it's just the story of a guy who comes from a very individual sport who's totally focused on his job, has no time for distractions & has very little care for what people write or say about him.

I think he's genuinely probably the nicest guy in the peloton but as a rider, he's a born winner. Jumbo needs to do a better job separating both & not have the former encroach upon the latter.

It means when he gets on a bike, it's all about win, win, win. Not gift, gift, gift.



One word: Bahrain.

A lot of people who aren't particularly attentive to Roglič's career won't know there's some serious underlying issues between Rog & Bahrain Victorious.

There's the Mäder incident (more meme worthy than anything), there's Colbrelli & now there's Wright. But there's also the shenanigans/intrigue in the Slovenian national team in which (at least according to Kate Wagner in a podcast a few weeks ago) was the scene of some drama last year after the Olympic games when Andrej Hauptman & UAE's Slovenians who helped Roglič become Olympic champion (he'd known him for a very long time & they had a very good relationship) were ousted in a sort of coup by Bahrain's Slovenians.

Roglič apparently thought this was total sh*t. So there's more going on here in this story than meets the eye.

My opinion? He's had an abominable year through no fault of his own. Disgusting bad luck & poor Jumbo management have destroyed his season. So despite the internet taking to arms to defend Fred Wright, he won't care. Just as he didn't care about Gino in Paris-Nice either. I also have my own opinions regarding his "own goal" as a result of being too nice to people on the road. He was nice with Pogačar, that backfired. He was nice with Vingegaard (mentored him basically), that backfired. He was nice when he dropped the Colbrelli incident & said nothing, that also eventually backfired.

His physiotherapist said Roglič is 'too nice' for this milieu so that's probably something he's now changed. I don't think he'll retire, he likes winning too much. I think he'll return, stomp & the internet will burn down again. As a fan I'm here for the spectacle, excitement & career path of a very unusual rider with a crazy personal story. It's only pro-sport, not the United Nations. So bring on next season already.

I think I really agree that Roglic' statement isn't just a result of this isolated incident.

 

[Volderke]

I honestly don’t see the link between the crash in the vuelta and an underlying Bahrain - Roglic conflict. That conflict might be there, but Wright is relatively new in the peloton and the incident itself is Roglic fault.

 

[RedheadDane]

Yep. I mean there's seriously people out there who thought the Mäder incident was... accidental. Or something lost in translation (i.e. like Roglič didn't understand the 'ancient' rules of the peloton or something). Nah, he did in full awareness of everything.

Correct. Roglic had just as much right to go for the win on stage 7 of the 2021 Paris-Nice, as Wright had to go for the win on stage 16 of the 2022 Vuelta a Espana. No "ancient rules" applied in either case.

 

[Extinction]

Correct. Roglic had just as much right to go for the win on stage 7 of the 2021 Paris-Nice, as Wright had to go for the win on stage 16 of the 2022 Vuelta a Espana. No "ancient rules" applied in either case.

This is debatable, even if any cyclist has the right to try to win when the opportunity presents itself, however, in stage racing alliances are made when common interests coincide and it's better to have "friends" than "enemies." And memories are long in cycling. The comparison you make is thus interesting, but not for the reason you suggest. When Roglic overtook a gutted Mader for the win, he didn't make "friends" that day and it ironically came back to haunt him when he crashed and lost Paris-Nice. Nobody waited for him and they went full gas. I believe, by contrast, had he let Mader win they would have waited for Roglic after his fall. Consider when Contador gifted the stage to Paolo Tiralongo at the 2011 Giro. That's how you make "friends" in the peloton. In other words, there are times when not winning is better than being a greedy hog, unless you are Armstrong gifting Pantani on Ventoux and publicly state so hurting the rider's pride. Indeed it's likely because of the Mader incident that Wright was told under no circumstances do you concede anything to Rog in the final.

 

[RedheadDane]

When Roglic overtook a gutted Mader for the win, he didn't make "friends" that day and it ironically came back to haunt him when he crashed and lost Paris-Nice.

Mäder himself went out and said that he had no problem with Roglic overtaking him. That he should just have gone faster.

 

[Extinction]

Mäder himself went out and said that he had no problem with Roglic overtaking him. That he should just have gone faster.

That's what they all say. Still Rog made no friends in the peloton that day.

 

[RedheadDane]

That's what they all say. Still Rog made no friends in the peloton that day.

Still hardly had anything to do with what happened on stage 16 of this year's Vuelta. Of course, Mäder was probably sad just after it happened, but it makes no sense to assume that it started some big "cycle of revenge" between Roglic and the Bahrain riders.

 

[Extinction]

Still hardly had anything to do with what happened on stage 16 of this year's Vuelta. Of course, Mäder was probably sad just after it happened, but it makes no sense to assume that it started some big "cycle of revenge" between Roglic and the Bahrain riders.

Oh you think? You also think it was just racing when the leader fell and the put the throttle down?

 

[BR2]

Mäder himself went out and said that he had no problem with Roglic overtaking him. That he should just have gone faster.

Well, what Mäder said and what he thought might have been two different things. Nonetheless he probably was okay with it, understanding that it wasn't aimed against him but normal racing, but indeed it might have an effect, the little things you do here and there...
And while Roglic has so often behaved like the most perfect gentleman, it seems JV hasn't made so many friends overall in the past years - by dominating races and by riding in sometimes questionable, a bit arrogant style, because they think they deserve more respect than some others for their strength.

I agree with Rackham that this discussion is most likely not just about that single incident, and also that there might be alliances and enemies behind the scenes, which are most likely not involving Wright for being Wright, but for being a part of BV.

I imagine Roglic is the type who bottles up a lot of things, stays calm and nice, until it's all too much and he explodes. The frustration at this point about how things are going for him must be huge. Unfortunately, as is often the case in these instances, his patience ran out in the wrong moment and he "chose" the wrong occurrence to explode, because in this case it was his fault, definitely not Wrights.

The big problem here, which I think the post of BV highlighted well, is not so much that he's wrong about the situation, but that he boosts the hate that Wright now has to face. In this age where crazy people come up with death threats for these reasons you just have to be more careful with such statements.

I guess it could be that Jumbo supports Roglic here in part in exchange/ as a balance to the situations where they went more opportunisticly with another rider/ the bigger chance for a win.

In the end everyone might have their reasons and they are all human beings. But as much as I dislike BV Wright is just a young guy who doesn't deserve to be caught up in all this like that. His statements were super friendly and mature. I just hope he's not another one who bottles his true feelings up.

 

[RedheadDane]

Oh you think? You also think it was just racing when the leader fell and the put the throttle down?

I honestly don't remember enough of that to know for sure. Did they start riding hard because Roglic went down, or because that's just how the race ended up happening? Sometimes, not waiting for the leader is, in fact, just racing. And even if there might have been a slight anger towards him at that point, do you really think it's still in affect now?

I agree with Rackham that this discussion is most likely not just about that single incident, and also that there might be alliances and enemies behind the scenes, which are most likely not involving Wright for being Wright, but for being a part of BV.

And the problem is people acting like all those incidents are somehow connected.

The big problem here, which I think the post of BV highlighted well, is not so much that he's wrong about the situation, but that he boosts the hate that Wright now has to face. In this age where crazy people come up with death threats for these reasons you just have to be more careful with such statements.

At least it seems most other riders are defending Wright.

BTW, gifts are usually reserved for "I get some, you get some." kind of situations. Two riders working together; one can win/get high up in the GC, and the underlying agreement being that the other will get the stage. Bit like, oh... I dunno, Roglic gifting the final stage of Itzulia to Gaudu last year... Now, if a similar situation had happened between Roglic and Mäder, and Roglic had still sprinted for the win, that would have been an AH move. Otoh, imagine if Roglic had let Mäder win that stage, perhaps slowed down enough that he finished in the same time as Schachmann, and then rather than losing minutes the following day, had ended up losing the GC by just a few seconds the following day? Do you really think people wouldn't have criticised him for being dumb enough to not get the stage win, and bonus seconds, when he had the chance?

 

[Extinction]

I think they started riding hard because Roglic hit the tarmac

 

[acm]

I think they started riding hard because Roglic hit the tarmac

He crashed twice that day. After first crash they waited for him, after second not. I think Kruijswijk said that.

 

[bNator]

I honestly don't remember enough of that to know for sure. Did they start riding hard because Roglic went down, or because that's just how the race ended up happening? Sometimes, not waiting for the leader is, in fact, just racing. And even if there might have been a slight anger towards him at that point, do you really think it's still in affect now?



And the problem is people acting like all those incidents are somehow connected.



At least it seems most other riders are defending Wright.

BTW, gifts are usually reserved for "I get some, you get some." kind of situations. Two riders working together; one can win/get high up in the GC, and the underlying agreement being that the other will get the stage. Bit like, oh... I dunno, Roglic gifting the final stage of Itzulia to Gaudu last year... Now, if a similar situation had happened between Roglic and Mäder, and Roglic had still sprinted for the win, that would have been an AH move. Otoh, imagine if Roglic had let Mäder win that stage, perhaps slowed down enough that he finished in the same time as Schachmann, and then rather than losing minutes the following day, had ended up losing the GC by just a few seconds the following day? Do you really think people wouldn't have criticised him for being dumb enough to not get the stage win, and bonus seconds, when he had the chance?

This (the bolded part).

I never understood all the criticism regarding Mäder. Especially since the criticism was not so much targeted on Roglic making enemies but more than that, he was supposedly cruel to Mäder...

Do we even have a precedence - a similar situation where an attacker would slow down intentionally couple of hundred meters before the finish to let the breakaway guy win and let the chasers regain time?

Sure if he did that he would make more friends and maybe this Vuelta could turn out differently, but I don’t think one should operate this way… If I were Roglic, I would instead of making friends for the sake of staying on the bike invest my efforts into improving my bike positioning and spatial awareness.

In the end of the day, it’s true that Wright could have let Primoz steal his line and thus avoid the crash (and if they were friends he probably would have done that). But better than that is to avoid this kind of situations altogether…

 

[Extinction]

He crashed twice that day. After first crash they waited for him, after second not. I think Kruijswijk said that.

Really? I was not aware, but do remember reading things to the effect that there was a conection between the Mader "incident" and him losing Paris-Nice that way.

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

I'm no Roglic fan but I didn't realise the Mader incident was a big deal; it was a stage race and there were bonus seconds at the line so at the time I thought "fair enough".

 

[Extinction]

This (the bolded part).

I never understood all the criticism regarding Mäder. Especially since the criticism was not so much targeted on Roglic making enemies but more than that, he was supposedly cruel to Mäder...

Do we even have a precedence - a similar situation where an attacker would slow down intentionally couple of hundred meters before the finish to let the breakaway guy win and let the chasers regain time?

Sure if he did that he would make more friends and maybe this Vuelta could turn out differently, but I don’t think one should operate this way… If I were Roglic, I would instead of making friends for the sake of staying on the bike invest my efforts into improving my bike positioning and spatial awareness.

In the end of the day, it’s true that Wright could have let Primoz steal his line and thus avoid the crash (and if they were friends he probably would have done that). But better than that is to avoid this kind of situations altogether…

I just remember it was considered poor form, since he was in the lead, like a sovreign being munificent with a plebian. Of course, he was under no obligation to gift anything, but it just would have been a gesture everyone would have appreciated. More than direct consequences for Roglic, I think it didn't help JVs cause and this made an impact on how things turned out.

 

[acm]

Really? I was not aware, but do remember reading things to the effect that there was a conection between the Mader "incident" and him losing Paris-Nice that way.

Found an article.

I don't believe he lost PN because of that Mader incident. I remember there were some dropped riders (Campenaerts etc.) thah helped Roglic chase the front group.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I still love Rogla. He has more big wins in him, you'll see.

View: https://youtu.be/2H5Se-9XAVE

 

[Extinction]

Found an article.

I don't believe he lost PN because of that Mader incident. I remember there were some dropped riders (Campenaerts etc.) thah helped Roglic chase the front group.

That's one angle, in la Gazzetta dello Sport, however, there was another. Of course Italians love a bit of drama and controversy, but at times they get it right.

 

[SunnyDay]

I’m amazed about all the criticism and negative comments regarding Roglic’s statement from his so-called fans, accusing him of doing wrong.
I 100% agree with @CyclistAby, @Rackham, and a few others that Primoz had to stand up for himself, finally. We never heard a word of complaint from him on any occasion of his many bad moments. He always took the blame on himself or simply didn’t comment. It was about time for him to finally speak up. His statement was not about whose fault it was in this accident. It was about respect and safety in cycling which are both lacking heavily in the latest years, especially among younger riders. Primoz’s statement was backed by the team’s director Plugge who pointed exactly to the issue of safety. This is the real problem that should be discussed. Not just on the internet forums, but first and foremost in professional cycling circles, starting with UCI, teams, riders, and journalists as public opinion makers. In particular, the latest have the responsibility to report and evaluate objectively. It is not their right to judge and draw conclusions. Which was exactly what they did in the case of Primoz’s statement. They took it out of context exposing he blamed Wright for the accident. Which was not the real point of TJV’s statement. I bet a few of you, if any, have read the original statement on TJV’s website. If you had, you’d understand what this entire statement was about. So, the point here is not WHO caused the accident but WHY it happened. And the answer is because of reckless riding and lack of respect of a young rider toward a GC contender. That’s why I back Primoz and TJV at 100%. It’s about time they start talking about the real causes of safety issues in cycling if we don’t want to discuss someone’s death anytime in the future.

 

[RedheadDane]

Still a bit weird to make a statement such as that when the other rider clearly isn't at fault.