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meat puppet

meat puppet

May 29, 2011
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Captain Awesome said:
Anyone else feel like Roglic isn’t happy because he expected to be co-captain with Vingegaard and then ride for the win. He also probably thought it was 50/50 because Vingegaard rode Tour de France. That would have given Roglic a good and fair chance to win Vuelta. I think Roglic would have been fine if he had lost the Vuelta to Jonas in a fair duel. Like both giving 100% and the best man win scenario?

But losing it to Kuss while having to hold back was a waste of time for Roglic. Roglic was already second fiddle to Jonas and now even domestiques gets to win before him. He is also 33 and every Grand Tour could be his last. You never know when you fall off at that age.

Roglic needs to make a decision. Stay with Jumbo and be second fiddle and ride the Giro as captain or change team and go up against Pogacar and Vingegaard. He probably only have one or two years where he can compete against the likes of Vingegaard and Pogacar.

I kinda hope he changes team for next season and go all out for the Tour. He already won the Vuelta and Giro so it’s not like he has much to lose. Winning another Giro or Vuelta doesn’t change much. The alternative is to go to the Tour as Jumbos no. 2 and then hope Vingegaard somehow fails. But honestly it would be much more fun if he was captain for another team.
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Good post.

I think he should change teams if he feels there is unfinished business with the Tour, although if I am honest I don't think he can win it. But can't win it if you don't try. The risk is he loses the Jumbo prep, of course.
 
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Rackham

Rackham

Jul 16, 2015
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There's an alternative to Rog leaving Jumbo, i.e. maybe Grischa Niermann will be fired as DS after the Vuelta (or at least never work in a race with him again).

I name Niermann because he's the obvious target, i.e. once pretty 'tight' with Rog but now always with Vingegaard on a different race program (he covers French races mostly, whereas Reef & Engels go to Italy & Spain), has wild tactics (like obsessed with using "GC Kuss" as bait in a breakaway to the point it backfired here) & there was that little sign of tension between Niermann & Rog after stage 8 when he won the sprint against Evenepoel but the info he'd been given about the length of the final straight was wrong. There's also stuff dating back in the TdF 2022, 2021 & even 2020 as well.

My point here is whomever was in the team car who gave Vingegaard the go-ahead on Tuesday for his surprise attack made a huge mistake. Vingegaard made a huge mistake as well.

The disrespect was something else & not acceptable.
 
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Krzysztof_O

Krzysztof_O

Jul 7, 2013
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Rackham said:
There's an alternative to Rog leaving Jumbo, i.e. maybe Grischa Niermann will be fired as DS after the Vuelta (or at least never work in a race with him again).

I name Niermann because he's the obvious target, i.e. once pretty 'tight' with Rog but now always with Vingegaard on a different race program (he covers French races mostly, whereas Reef & Engels go to Italy & Spain), has wild tactics (like obsessed with using "GC Kuss" as bait in a breakaway to the point it backfired here) & there was that little sign of tension between Niermann & Rog after stage 8 when he won the sprint against Evenepoel but the info he'd been given about the length of the final straight was wrong. There's also stuff dating back in the TdF 2022, 2021 & even 2020 as well.

My point here is whomever was in the team car who gave Vingegaard the go-ahead on Tuesday for his surprise attack made a huge mistake. Vingegaard made a huge mistake as well.

The disrespect was something else & not acceptable.
Click to expand...

Rogla to UAE -> great Slovenian revenge at the Tour -> Vingo going back to fishing industry
 
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Red Rick

Red Rick

Feb 20, 2012
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Rackham said:
There's an alternative to Rog leaving Jumbo, i.e. maybe Grischa Niermann will be fired as DS after the Vuelta (or at least never work in a race with him again).

I name Niermann because he's the obvious target, i.e. once pretty 'tight' with Rog but now always with Vingegaard on a different race program (he covers French races mostly, whereas Reef & Engels go to Italy & Spain), has wild tactics (like obsessed with using "GC Kuss" as bait in a breakaway to the point it backfired here) & there was that little sign of tension between Niermann & Rog after stage 8 when he won the sprint against Evenepoel but the info he'd been given about the length of the final straight was wrong. There's also stuff dating back in the TdF 2022, 2021 & even 2020 as well.

My point here is whomever was in the team car who gave Vingegaard the go-ahead on Tuesday for his surprise attack made a huge mistake. Vingegaard made a huge mistake as well.

The disrespect was something else & not acceptable.
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Nah, that's a lot of grasping to me.

Eventually what will simply happen is Roglic and Vingegaard will be united in getting *** from Belgian press for not working for Van Aert at the Tour.
 
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Valv.Piti

Valv.Piti

Aug 3, 2015
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Rackham said:
There's an alternative to Rog leaving Jumbo, i.e. maybe Grischa Niermann will be fired as DS after the Vuelta (or at least never work in a race with him again).

I name Niermann because he's the obvious target, i.e. once pretty 'tight' with Rog but now always with Vingegaard on a different race program (he covers French races mostly, whereas Reef & Engels go to Italy & Spain), has wild tactics (like obsessed with using "GC Kuss" as bait in a breakaway to the point it backfired here) & there was that little sign of tension between Niermann & Rog after stage 8 when he won the sprint against Evenepoel but the info he'd been given about the length of the final straight was wrong. There's also stuff dating back in the TdF 2022, 2021 & even 2020 as well.

My point here is whomever was in the team car who gave Vingegaard the go-ahead on Tuesday for his surprise attack made a huge mistake. Vingegaard made a huge mistake as well.

The disrespect was something else & not acceptable.
Click to expand...
So what if Vingegaard doesn't go on Tuesday? Kuss wins anyways.

Jonas pretty much got 'held back' as much as Roglic did. Both really couldn't go for it
 
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Blanco

Blanco

Jun 6, 2017
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Rackham said:
There's an alternative to Rog leaving Jumbo, i.e. maybe Grischa Niermann will be fired as DS after the Vuelta (or at least never work in a race with him again).

I name Niermann because he's the obvious target, i.e. once pretty 'tight' with Rog but now always with Vingegaard on a different race program (he covers French races mostly, whereas Reef & Engels go to Italy & Spain), has wild tactics (like obsessed with using "GC Kuss" as bait in a breakaway to the point it backfired here) & there was that little sign of tension between Niermann & Rog after stage 8 when he won the sprint against Evenepoel but the info he'd been given about the length of the final straight was wrong. There's also stuff dating back in the TdF 2022, 2021 & even 2020 as well.

My point here is whomever was in the team car who gave Vingegaard the go-ahead on Tuesday for his surprise attack made a huge mistake. Vingegaard made a huge mistake as well.

The disrespect was something else & not acceptable.
Click to expand...
This exactly.
Niermann is to blame the most, he just couldn't handle the situation, and obviously was on Vingegaard's boat.
 
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Red Rick

Red Rick

Feb 20, 2012
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Valv.Piti said:
So what if Vingegaard doesn't go on Tuesday? Kuss wins anyways.

Jonas pretty much got 'held back' as much as Roglic did. Both really couldn't go for it
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Between the two of them, neither winning is the fairer outcome. As for gifting it, if I'm Kuss I would feel really weird about it all no matter what the outcome was. I might feel a little hard done by if the DS just said "okay guys it's fine just spank Sepp out of his jersey."

Roglic may feel a little insecure about his Tour spot, but that's also entirely down to what Roglic wants at the Tour. Plugge or Zeeman, I don't remember which, was very clear they plan Roglic has a place in the Tour squad next year.
 
Valv.Piti

Valv.Piti

Aug 3, 2015
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Rackham said:
Rog keeps his second place in GC which he'd earned on the road.

The team car just p*ssed away his lead over Vinge for no reason.
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I dno, they were a few seconds apart. Maybe Vinge will then drop him yesterday or today. We don't know. Maybe he wins that stage with a late attack and gains some seconds (Tuesday)

Vingegaard earned this 2nd just as much as Rogla, and honestly, it barely really matters. We recognize that they didn't really 'race' for the win or for 2nd and 3rd, so finishing 2nd here for Jonas and 3rd for Roglic doesn't mean at all in the grand scheme of things (TdF 2024).

Anyways, it's my clear impression that Jonas overall was a tad stronger over 3 weeks than Roglic in this race. But we don't 100% know.
 
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Blanco

Blanco

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Valv.Piti said:
So what if Vingegaard doesn't go on Tuesday? Kuss wins anyways.

Jonas pretty much got 'held back' as much as Roglic did. Both really couldn't go for it
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He made bad blood with that move, he and the one who allowed it.
And I don't think Vingegaard was held back as Roglic. If Roglic didn't made that show on Angliru, bosses wouldn't react, and Niermann would encourage Vinge to do it again. Little by little he would be in red.
 
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Valv.Piti

Valv.Piti

Aug 3, 2015
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Red Rick said:
Between the two of them, neither winning is the fairer outcome. As for gifting it, if I'm Kuss I would feel really weird about it all no matter what the outcome was. I might feel a little hard done by if the DS just said "okay guys it's fine just spank Sepp out of his jersey."

Roglic may feel a little insecure about his Tour spot, but that's also entirely down to what Roglic wants at the Tour. Plugge or Zeeman, I don't remember which, was very clear they plan Roglic has a place in the Tour squad next year.
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Yes it is, and it's what happening now? So I just don't see why Roglic should feel more 'butthurt' or whatever than Jonas. Both had realistic chances of winning, but in the end didn't try to because team orders dictated so. And finishing 2nd or 3rd, well, you might as well flip a freaking coin, because it doesn't matter in this particular race.
 
O

ontheroad

Oct 10, 2012
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theyoungest said:
Looking forward to see all three of them in the Tour next year :)

First American Tour win in 35 years coming up.
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Right now I cant think of anything that would dampen my enthusiasm for next years Tour more than the sight of those 3 plus WVA dressed in yellow next July.

I think Roglic changing teams suits all parties now. It’s clear that Vingegaard is the golden egg, the ultimate GT watts monster that brought them to the promised land on the Champs Elysees. He’s younger and can win another 3+ Tours so it’s understandable that he’s viewed as the number 1 rider. All things being equal I don’t see peak Roglic beating either peak Vingegaard or Pogacar to win the Tour but if you don’t buy a ticket you can’t win the lottery. I think he’d like another one or two chances to see what he can do but he’ll need to negotiate a transfer to give himself the best possible chance.
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

Feb 20, 2012
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Valv.Piti said:
Yes it is, and it's what happening now? So I just don't see why Roglic should feel more 'butthurt' or whatever than Jonas. Both had realistic chances of winning, but in the end didn't try to because team orders dictated so. And finishing 2nd or 3rd, well, you might as well flip a freaking coin, because it doesn't matter in this particular race.
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My guess is the attack on stage 16, where the team plan was to ride for Rogic' uphill sprint win, was the big problem for Roglic. It basically decided any battle between Roglic and Vingegaard before they were even allowed to go head to head. And I do think it was the plan that they allowed to go head to head at some point.

Then Angliru turns into a bit of a PR clusterfuck and Jumbo decided to pull the plug on the 'race it out' plan.
 
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Red Rick

Red Rick

Feb 20, 2012
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Valv.Piti said:
It would just be better for everybody tbh if Rogla found another team. With the way things are looking right now, I can't really see a happy marriage in 2024 beyond the one weakers Jonas don't ride.
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I think it's much easier if you ride against Pogacar. Strongest man wins. Either Roglic isn't good enough to be close and Adam Yates' himself to 3rd place or he's close enough to potentially benefit from team tactics.

I really don't see his TdF odds improving at all by leaving.
 
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G

Gargamel35

Sep 5, 2020
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JV is playing with fire. They are pushing Roglič out of the team so let's say he goes. Kuss will get promoted to GT leader on races without Jonas. That means Jonas looses best domestique there is. And Kuss isn't really a Top GT contender anyway.

Then they are one Jonas injury away from disaster (Ineos). From top flying team to mediocre.
 
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