fantasy doping draft

[The Hitch]

Re:

Well if you did a poll among all on earth, I guess more people would vote for his Tour win as the most famous

Though of course the majority would vote "who is that dude?"

Maybe. Perhaps a few years down the line though it will be Val martelo. Just like how the gavia pass snow stage is more famous than some random tdf mtf from the 80's.

But yeah there are many interpretations of the word famous that would have semnoz above vm.

 

[TomasC]

Re: Re:

...
Where did I say anything about 1992?

Nowhere, I got confused by the ideas of others. That was really well played Hitch.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

It has been mentioned on the thread that we need to stop namedropping riders that haven't been picked yet, despite the Hitch's fun guessing game (which I missed, unfortunately), and with my having two picks back to back and a lot of names (including at least one of the picks I was looking at) being bandied about, I run the risk of it being perceived that some of these picks came about because of them being brought up today. I'd like to assure you that it isn't the case; I had narrowed down the choice of riders for picks 30 and 31 down to a handful, mostly Spanish and Italian. Some I can pretty much guarantee will be gone by the time I next pick, some I still feel there's an outside chance they may be overlooked - after all, I considered myself '95 Jalabert fell to #20, and it's already been mentioned today by another poster that they were surprised that my next pick fell to #30. I'm less surprised that he's fallen this far, but he was a name I had my eye on right from the very start of the draft procedure - I didn't think he'd be a top 2 round pick, but he was one of the names I was hoping would fall to me... so now I select Joseba Beloki Dorronsoro, ONCE from the 2001 Tour de France.

With the chrono already looked after courtesy of Miguelón, and stagehunting the preserve of Jalabert, Equipo Libertine Seguros needs to round itself out. Here, we have a man who could podium the Tour three times at the turn of the century. The only two that could better him at this point in time were picked 2nd and 3rd overall in the draft. I've gone with 2001 Beloki over 2002 Beloki despite the latter managing a better final position because the 2001 vintage was the more consistent and, with two top 10s in the ITTs, if there is a long TTT as we can probably anticipate from an EPO-era Grand Tour, the more power we can put down the better. Throughout the race he was the 3rd best in the mountains, finishing 3rd behind Armstrong and Ullrich at Alpe d'Huez, Chamrousse AND Pla d'Adet, while also being among the best chasers in other mountain stages; in a fourth, he was 4th home of the heads of state (the break took the stage), with only Heras (another first-round pick), who was superdomestiquing for Armstrong, in the intervening timeframe.

So Beloki for my team, because we need to shore up the climbing, and we have a strong candidate here. Joseba's job for Indurain will likely be similar to that done by Heras for Armstrong in the 2001 Tour, and I think he will be a good fit for the squad. There is no "Super-Beloki" that stands out over the rest, like '97 Ullrich or '06 Basso. But to perform at the level he did in the era that he did makes him a worthwhile addition to the team.

Round 1

Pick 1: Libertine Seguros - Miguel Indurain ('95 Tour)
Pick 2: The Hitch - Lance Armstrong ('04 Tour)
Pick 3: The Sceptic - Jan Ullrich ('97 Tour)
Pick 4: The Green Monkey - Alberto Contador ('09 Tour)
Pick 5: zlev11 - Marco Pantani ('99 Giro)
Pick 6: burning - Bjarne Riis ('96 Tour)
Pick 7: Netserk - Ivan Basso ('06 Giro)
Pick 8: Zam Olyas - Gianni Bugno ('90 Giro)
Pick 9: Tonton - Evgeni Berzin ('94 Giro)
Pick 10: Ciranda - Roberto Heras ('04 Vuelta)

Round 2

Pick 11: Ciranda - Tyler Hamilton ('03 Tour)
Pick 12: Tonton - Chris Froome ('13 Tour)
Pick 13: Zam Olyas - Tony Rominger ('95 Giro)
Pick 14: Netserk - Piotr Ugrumov ('94 Tour)
Pick 15: burning - Richard Virenque ('97 Tour)
Pick 16: zlev11 - Floyd Landis ('06 Tour)
Pick 17: The Green Monkey - Alex Zülle ('95 Tour)
Pick 18: The Sceptic - Santi Pérez ('04 Vuelta)
Pick 19: The Hitch - Michael Rasmussen ('07 Tour)
Pick 20: Libertine Seguros - Laurent Jalabert ('95 Vuelta)

Round 3

Pick 21: Ciranda - Frank Vandenbroucke ('99 Vuelta)
Pick 22: Tonton - Alexander Vinokourov ('03 Tour)
Pick 23: Zam Olyas - Denis Menchov ('09 Giro)
Pick 24: Netserk - Pavel Tonkov ('98 Giro)
Pick 25: burning - Gilberto Simoni ('03 Giro)
Pick 26: zlev11 - Riccardo Ricco ('08 Tour)
Pick 27: The Green Monkey - Ivan Gotti ('97 Giro)
Pick 28: The Sceptic - Chris Horner ('13 Vuelta)
Pick 29: The Hitch - Nairo Quintana ('13 Tour)
Pick 30: Libertine Seguros - Joseba Beloki ('01 Tour)

 

[Netserk]

I have a round four pick I'm thinking about, but he wasn't at his best in a GT as he was sabotaged by one of his opponents. If we could pick his form from a month before a GT, I see him as one of the absolute best picks left.

 

[The Hitch]

Going into the the last few picks of the 3rd round I have Beloki pencilled in as my pick but when my turn came i buckled precisely because there is no standout version. When I saw that Quintana had a faster Alpe time than Joseba and the same Ventoux time I decided to go with Nairo.

Ideally I would have liked the 2003 version, which many believe could have actually won the Tour, but there just isn't enough tape on him.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

I have a round four pick I'm thinking about, but he wasn't at his best in a GT as he was sabotaged by one of his opponents. If we could pick his form from a month before a GT, I see him as one of the absolute best picks left.

Its hickup isn't it (hrotha will know the reference I think)
Tried to fit him in earlier, but yeah the existing gt performances weren't good enough.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Netserk - if we could pick riders on Dauphiné form, I'd probably have wanted a certain guy who may or may not be the same rider you're thinking of in round 2.
Hitch - agree on the 2003 version - unfortunately the crash was just too early in the race, so unlike other riders who've exited races early but still been picked (2007 Ras, 1999 Pantani, 2008 Riccò) it's just too difficult to tell.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

I have a round four pick I'm thinking about, but he wasn't at his best in a GT as he was sabotaged by one of his opponents. If we could pick his form from a month before a GT, I see him as one of the absolute best picks left.

Its hickup isn't it (hrotha will know the reference I think)
Tried to fit him in earlier, but yeah the existing gt performances weren't good enough.

Hahaha. Can't wait for someone to pick him so that I can post that video.

And yeah, you can only really use the 2003 version, and that would be as an average (for these standards) climbing domestique.

 

[Tonton]

Re:

Netserk - if we could pick riders on Dauphiné form, I'd probably have wanted a certain guy who may or may not be the same rider you're thinking of in round 2.
Hitch - agree on the 2003 version - unfortunately the crash was just too early in the race, so unlike other riders who've exited races early but still been picked (2007 Ras, 1999 Pantani, 2008 Riccò) it's just too difficult to tell.

Nice pick Libertine Seguros, and you're next, so you can really solidify an already good looking roster. And thanks for your reminder about the "no name rule". The last few rounds will probably be even funnier to pick: many hidden out there. Ahhhhh, you gotta love doping , the gift that keeps giving.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

After a bit of deliberation, the decision is that I need a climber. More TT engines can wait; Indurain is the all time master in the discipline, while Jalabert is a former World Champion in the discipline as well. Beloki is far from a schmuck against the clock, so we can afford a true grimpeur.

I had a small number of names on my plate, and while I was mighty tempted by one in particular who I have to assume will be gone by the time I pick next (after all, there are 18 picks to be made in that time), and a couple of the choices available are perhaps better than the one I've taken, the simple fact of the matter is, I can't trust this guy to still be on the market when I next draft, and I would be kicking myself if somebody else took him.

Therefore, with the first pick of round 4, Equipo Libertine Seguros presented by Banesto pick José María Jiménez Sastre, Escalador, 1998 Vuelta.

Chava is one of the great "what might have been" stories of the era. A mercurial and prodigiously gifted climber, he burnt brightly in the late 90s, however a combination of psychological and physical health problems beset him, and led to a dramatically premature retirement and, tragically, to his death in 2003 at the age of just 32. What he may have been capable had he not fallen into the wrong circles, or if his problems with depression could have been resolved, we will never know. All we have is the comparatively brief heyday of a spectacular climber. Like the great José Manuel Fuente before him, Chava's time at the top of the sport was relatively brief; though he'd been compiling results for a few seasons prior to it, the vast majority of his results lay between 1997 and 2001.

Though his emergence at the top of the sport may have come with his dramatic burst of acceleration to catch and drop the leaders on the final ramps of the Los Ángeles de San Rafael stage in '97 and his most legendary and famous triumph - by far - came in '99 when he became the first man to triumph on the monstrous slopes of the Angliru, it is the 1998 version that I have chosen, when he won four stages, all key mountains.

The Chava of legend was born late in week 1 of the 1998 Vuelta, when he attacked on Xorret del Catí for the stage win, holding off the charging Heras. Over the course of the race he would have some dispute over tactics with the team, with the team leader losing time to Heras and Escartín in the mountains and needing the help, while Chava would be acting as deadweight on their ascents and then, once the point of no return had been reached, grinding them into dust. He won a further three mountaintop finishes in the race - Vallnord Sector Pal, Cerler and Lagunas de Neila, the only time the latter has been used in La Vuelta. The latter perhaps underscored his dominance in the climbs, because he stayed with his team leader for much of the climb, answered attacks and then rode away from everybody else comfortably to open up a huge margin very quickly. His team leader would get frustrated with Jiménez at times during the race, and had he been leading the team in his own right it would have been very interesting to see what the 1998 Jiménez could have done.

How does Chava fit my team? Well, we need pure climbing and with the strength already banked don't mind having a weaker TTer. His tendency to go from distance when feeling good makes him a potential stagehunter as well; if the DS can curb him he's a monster climbing helper to have for Big Mig as well; in fact, when Indurain won his final Tour de France - the race that I have picked him for as pick 1 round 1 - one of the men tasked with helping him around the mountains that year was none other than José María Jiménez!

Round 1

Pick 1: Libertine Seguros - Miguel Indurain ('95 Tour)
Pick 2: The Hitch - Lance Armstrong ('04 Tour)
Pick 3: The Sceptic - Jan Ullrich ('97 Tour)
Pick 4: The Green Monkey - Alberto Contador ('09 Tour)
Pick 5: zlev11 - Marco Pantani ('99 Giro)
Pick 6: burning - Bjarne Riis ('96 Tour)
Pick 7: Netserk - Ivan Basso ('06 Giro)
Pick 8: Zam Olyas - Gianni Bugno ('90 Giro)
Pick 9: Tonton - Evgeni Berzin ('94 Giro)
Pick 10: Ciranda - Roberto Heras ('04 Vuelta)

Round 2

Pick 11: Ciranda - Tyler Hamilton ('03 Tour)
Pick 12: Tonton - Chris Froome ('13 Tour)
Pick 13: Zam Olyas - Tony Rominger ('95 Giro)
Pick 14: Netserk - Piotr Ugrumov ('94 Tour)
Pick 15: burning - Richard Virenque ('97 Tour)
Pick 16: zlev11 - Floyd Landis ('06 Tour)
Pick 17: The Green Monkey - Alex Zülle ('95 Tour)
Pick 18: The Sceptic - Santi Pérez ('04 Vuelta)
Pick 19: The Hitch - Michael Rasmussen ('07 Tour)
Pick 20: Libertine Seguros - Laurent Jalabert ('95 Vuelta)

Round 3

Pick 21: Ciranda - Frank Vandenbroucke ('99 Vuelta)
Pick 22: Tonton - Alexander Vinokourov ('03 Tour)
Pick 23: Zam Olyas - Denis Menchov ('09 Giro)
Pick 24: Netserk - Pavel Tonkov ('98 Giro)
Pick 25: burning - Gilberto Simoni ('03 Giro)
Pick 26: zlev11 - Riccardo Ricco ('08 Tour)
Pick 27: The Green Monkey - Ivan Gotti ('97 Giro)
Pick 28: The Sceptic - Chris Horner ('13 Vuelta)
Pick 29: The Hitch - Nairo Quintana ('13 Tour)
Pick 30: Libertine Seguros - Joseba Beloki ('01 Tour)

Round 4

Pick 31: Libertine Seguros - José María Jiménez ('98 Vuelta)
Pick 32: The Hitch -
Pick 33: The Sceptic -
Pick 34: The Green Monkey -
Pick 35: zlev11 -
Pick 36: burning -
Pick 37: netserk -
Pick 38: Zam Olyas -
Pick 39: Tonton -
Pick 40: ciranda -

 

[observer]

After the teams are full, i'd like to see DS picks, Bike manufacturer picks and jersey selection to round out the event.

 

[Tonton]

I like your knowledge of cycling (not too many ever mention Soukho, the biggest "could have been" of them all) and BTW I sometimes visit your huge thread, trying unsuccessfully to post my 2017 TdF course . Sexy pick, not one I would have considered this early in the draft, but again, it is by procrastinating that I got "burned"
I really thought you would pick another rider that I won't name, having 7 guys ahead of me...

 

[zlev11]

i was considering Jimenez with my last pick, one of the last real mythical climbers left. great pick.

 

[the delgados]

This is the fantasy doping draft. Don't you want to win every stage? Enough with the mountain goats.

 

[TheGreenMonkey]

Not yet, 3 climbers in support of a leader is perfectly reasonable, perhaps 4 or even 5. As to winning every stage, that could be an aim, but might not be.

 

[WildspokeJoe]

Re:

After the teams are full, i'd like to see DS picks, Bike manufacturer picks and jersey selection to round out the event.

I like this ad on. If you're going to gear up, go full bore.

 

[D-Queued]

Holy cow. There are three guys that are almost certainly deserving of a pick by now. At least one of which is a confirmed doper.

Surprised!!!

Ok, maybe not. A lot of good dopers out there.

Dave.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re:

This is the fantasy doping draft. Don't you want to win every stage? Enough with the mountain goats.

With '95 Jalabert I have somebody who can compete to win any intermediate stage AND by far the best sprinter drafted so far. With Miguelón I have the best guy against the clock that there has ever been. Therefore picking climbing helpers for Indurain is now imo the right priority.

 

[Netserk]

Re:

This is the fantasy doping draft. Don't you want to win every stage? Enough with the mountain goats.

GC is more important than stages. And I'd much rather win mountain stages than boring sprint stages. So far most teams have a leader and two climbers to support him, not unreasonable, no? Of course there will also have to be some for the flatter parts, but truth is that some of the big riders in the 90's not only climbed like beasts, they also had the power to drill it even when the stages are pan flat.

Who do you think can produce the most power, some of the most recent WCTTers or riders like Indurain, Berzin, Ullrich etc.?

 

[deValtos]

At the end of this draft someone should put all the teams and riders into a database on Pro Cycling Manager and simulate a Tour de France where we can see just how well the teams do !

 

[Tonton]

At the end of this draft someone should put all the teams and riders into a database on Pro Cycling Manager and simulate a Tour de France where we can see just how well the teams do !

Not a bad idea, although I like WildSpokeJoe's idea better: have a poll, let anyone vote and argue their piece.

This thread obviously is a doping thread, yet I feel there's a lot of material to argue, points to be made that seldom get debated on the Clinic side of the forum. And it's fun, unlike the single rider threads, McQuaid and Cookson discussions that make me want to bang my head against my desk

 

[SeriousSam]

We should at least rank the leader by time trialling and climbing ability. That's most of what determines who would win a hypothetical tour anyway.

 

[The Hitch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSFAlTe6F-Q

With the 32nd pick of the 2015 draft, Team Hitch sponsored by Amgen selects, Vincenzo Nibali of Astana.

Probably fallen this far because his early gt podiums really weren't that impressive and his wins have had little compeition. Its true, he always had bad days with Liquigas, only scraped a gt because Anton crashed.
But now he is with Astana. And while maybe he would have lost to Contador or Froome in 2014 he still put up very good numbers, without competition to push him. Additionally he dominated the race and won 4 stages.

Its not just about his climbing skills though, if it was I may have picked someone else. His tt skills are ok, not remarkable, but he is very good at ttting, not neccesarily the same thing. With him, often average tt squads at Liquigas and Astana have done very well in the ttts, and thats because they were very well organized. NIbali's own good flat power, short end speed and insane bike handling make him a very strong addition to any tt squad.

And he's had experience with the domestique role and excelled at it. Remember the 2010 Giro where Liquigas destroyed the race. Nibali, even in pink was loyal domestique to Basso the whole way, doing everything the team wanted of him, didn't challenge the leader. Which is the role he will play for Armstrong.

And he has so much to offer. His bike handling obviously makes him the go to guy for guiding Lance down every descent, like he did for Basso in 2010.
His insane performance on the cobbles last year will also make him Armstrong's lieutenant on the cobble stage, perhaps helping distance his rivals like last year.
Top lieutenant for the hilly stages, may even be allowed to breakaway for the win.

And if he is near the top of the gc he can attack like he did on Grappa in 2010 forcing rivals to chase.

In short, for the role - domestique for Armstrong, easily the best option available right now, and possibly a steal at #32.

Oh and triple gt winner to boot.

Round 1

Pick 1: Libertine Seguros - Miguel Indurain ('95 Tour)
Pick 2: The Hitch - Lance Armstrong ('04 Tour)
Pick 3: The Sceptic - Jan Ullrich ('97 Tour)
Pick 4: The Green Monkey - Alberto Contador ('09 Tour)
Pick 5: zlev11 - Marco Pantani ('99 Giro)
Pick 6: burning - Bjarne Riis ('96 Tour)
Pick 7: Netserk - Ivan Basso ('06 Giro)
Pick 8: Zam Olyas - Gianni Bugno ('90 Giro)
Pick 9: Tonton - Evgeni Berzin ('94 Giro)
Pick 10: Ciranda - Roberto Heras ('04 Vuelta)

Round 2

Pick 11: Ciranda - Tyler Hamilton ('03 Tour)
Pick 12: Tonton - Chris Froome ('13 Tour)
Pick 13: Zam Olyas - Tony Rominger ('95 Giro)
Pick 14: Netserk - Piotr Ugrumov ('94 Tour)
Pick 15: burning - Richard Virenque ('97 Tour)
Pick 16: zlev11 - Floyd Landis ('06 Tour)
Pick 17: The Green Monkey - Alex Zülle ('95 Tour)
Pick 18: The Sceptic - Santi Pérez ('04 Vuelta)
Pick 19: The Hitch - Michael Rasmussen ('07 Tour)
Pick 20: Libertine Seguros - Laurent Jalabert ('95 Vuelta)

Round 3

Pick 21: Ciranda - Frank Vandenbroucke ('99 Vuelta)
Pick 22: Tonton - Alexander Vinokourov ('03 Tour)
Pick 23: Zam Olyas - Denis Menchov ('09 Giro)
Pick 24: Netserk - Pavel Tonkov ('98 Giro)
Pick 25: burning - Gilberto Simoni ('03 Giro)
Pick 26: zlev11 - Riccardo Ricco ('08 Tour)
Pick 27: The Green Monkey - Ivan Gotti ('97 Giro)
Pick 28: The Sceptic - Chris Horner ('13 Vuelta)
Pick 29: The Hitch - Nairo Quintana ('13 Tour)
Pick 30: Libertine Seguros - Joseba Beloki ('01 Tour)

Round 4

Pick 31: Libertine Seguros - José María Jiménez ('98 Vuelta)
Pick 32: The Hitch - Vincenzo Nibali (14 Tour)
Pick 33: The Sceptic -
Pick 34: The Green Monkey -
Pick 35: zlev11 -
Pick 36: burning -
Pick 37: netserk -
Pick 38: Zam Olyas -
Pick 39: Tonton -
Pick 40: ciranda -

 

[the sceptic]

round 4: Having picked a lightweight in the previous round, It's time to add another monster TT engine. So with this pick I select, Aitor Gonzalez (2002 vuelta of course)

I am glad to continue my tradition of picking riders who came out of relative obscurity to put up mutant results no one was expecting, and of course getting a rider from the height of the kelme doping powers is cool too.

I believe Aitor Gonzalez once got the nickname "speedy Gonzalez" because people were struggling to hold onto his wheel in breakaways. Of course at his most mutant he could also do some very respectable climbing, he was probably the 3th or so best climber against quite a strong field in this vuelta.

However it was in the time trials he would shine, and in this vuelta he won both, and not only won, he put minutes into all the other GC riders. In the deciding ITT he beat Beloki by 2:10, undrafted teammate by 2:49, Heras by 3:22 and undrafted american ITT specialist by 3:23 to name a few. And this was in only 40 K.

If I remember correctly he also won a bunch sprint from a reduced field but my memory is a bit fuzzy on that one.

All in all, Aitor will give me one of the strongest TT engines of the 2000s while being able to climb at adecent level so he can also help out there. A poor mans Jan Ullrich if you will.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The AITORMINATOR® was one of the people I was looking at for my pick, and I was hoping he would still be available at pick 41. It would have been 3 Basques and an Occitan in my team if I had though I also needed some real, pure climbing nous to go with the pure power climber leading the team, in which case The AITORMINATOR® didn't truly fit the bill.

He wasn't the one I was certain would be picked before I chose again either, so sadly I might have to do some reconsideration over the next few days.

Oh, and the reduced bunch finish you're thinking of was the stage to Ubrique. Very much an intermediate stage, the group he won from numbered about 25-30 iirc.