(excerpt from Wheelmen, google preview)
Not sure if you are just being sarcastic. Also just a note or question did anyone or has anyone confirmed that a reward was truly offered? If so then well yeah sniper needs to travel to Aspin CO and knock on brah's door. Be like --DUDE BRAH I was in the neighborhood and decided to stop in for my coin. I tried all the "gentelmen's clubs" and "crawfish stands" but could not find you. So I just came to your domicile.blackcat said:
Glenn_Wilson said:
Maxiton said:Glenn_Wilson said:
As sniper would say: exactamundo.
pmcg76 said:Maxiton said:Glenn_Wilson said:
As sniper would say: exactamundo.
Wait a second, all this information is already in Wheelmen so surely some people must have read it before now so this is hardly new news.
I asked this of Blutto before, if Weisel were the EPO guy, why was US Postal so slow onto the EPO train in 95-96 as alluded to by Tyler Hamilton in the Secret Race. Remember how Steffen Prentice was replaced by the Spanish doctors. Likewise Subaru-Montgomery rode in Europe in 92-93 but failed to make the Tour either year.
fair point, pcmg76.pmcg76 said:Maxiton said:Glenn_Wilson said:
As sniper would say: exactamundo.
Wait a second, all this information is already in Wheelmen so surely some people must have read it before now so this is hardly new news.
I asked this of Blutto before, if Weisel were the EPO guy, why was US Postal so slow onto the EPO train in 95-96 as alluded to by Tyler Hamilton in the Secret Race. Remember how Steffen Prentice was replaced by the Spanish doctors.
As for Montgomery/Weisel and EPO, I think it suffices to look at Weisel's own palmares in 1989 and 1990 to do the math.
sniper said:fair point, pcmg76.pmcg76 said:Maxiton said:Glenn_Wilson said:
As sniper would say: exactamundo.
Wait a second, all this information is already in Wheelmen so surely some people must have read it before now so this is hardly new news.
I asked this of Blutto before, if Weisel were the EPO guy, why was US Postal so slow onto the EPO train in 95-96 as alluded to by Tyler Hamilton in the Secret Race. Remember how Steffen Prentice was replaced by the Spanish doctors.
I never read Hamilton's Secret Race, to be honest. Just snippets.
Could you point out what he says in this particular regard?
I did read Swart's affidavit. And what it says/suggests is that motorola got on the team-wide-EPO train only in 95/96. Swart doesn't say, or suggest, that riders weren't on EPO before that on a more individual basis.
Does Hamilton really suggest that none of the motorola guys were on EPO before 1995? If so, I'm not gonna accept that very easily (EPO was easily purchasable from at least 1991 onwards), but it will be something that needs to be addressed, definitely.
As for Montgomery/Weisel and EPO, I think it suffices to look at Weisel's own palmares in 1989 and 1990 to do the math.
Why that team didn't make it in 92-93 is anyone's guess. A bit like asking why didn't Jens Voigt ever win the TdF, or why did PDM nosedive in the early 90s. Why did Indurain fall back in 1996. Planckaert. In some cases we know the answer, in others we don't. Point is: in all these cases we can be pretty damn sure that a lack of EPO supplies wasn't part of the reason.
Also, thinking a bit in reverse: ask yourself why Lance transformed in 1999. You'll agree that EPO alone isn't the answer.
Did Hamilton really say that nobody on motorola was using epo before 1995? If so, that's unlikely.Maxiton said:
sniper said:
GJB123 said:
cheers, will see if i can get hold of a searchable pdf.GJB123 said:
ok, much as i thought. Again, i'm personally quite convinced Hampsten was doing EPO with Testa in 1992 (see Hampsten thread for underpinning), and I'd be massively surprised if at least several other motorola riders weren't on EPO as well before 95. It was all over the place, Johnson & Johnson even did a TV commercial advertising EPO for athletic purposes (i think in 1991 or maybe 93?).
Didn't he win something in 1993?
Yes, he dabbled in EPO alright. who said it was "so strong". Not me. All I know about Montgomery-Amgen and EPO is what is written in those articles, and that Lemond invested in Montgomery around the time that EPO came into the peloton.
who says they weren't? Sure, the teamwide, open regulation of the epo-program began in 95, i'm willing to accept that. We don't know anything else, i'm afraid. Every single rider may have been on epo before that. (Well, Swart probably wasn't, but he wasn't on motorola before 1994)
you thought wrong.
i didn't try to connect any dots. The dots that are there connect themselves, or they don't.
pmcg76 said:Maxiton said:Glenn_Wilson said:
As sniper would say: exactamundo.
Wait a second, all this information is already in Wheelmen so surely some people must have read it before now so this is hardly new news.
I asked this of Blutto before, if Weisel were the EPO guy, why was US Postal so slow onto the EPO train in 95-96 as alluded to by Tyler Hamilton in the Secret Race. Remember how Steffen Prentice was replaced by the Spanish doctors. Likewise Subaru-Montgomery rode in Europe in 92-93 but failed to make the Tour either year.
Vanmol's injections didn't make him faster? lol.jens_attacks said:
GJB123 said:
blutto said:pmcg76 said:Maxiton said:Glenn_Wilson said:
As sniper would say: exactamundo.
Wait a second, all this information is already in Wheelmen so surely some people must have read it before now so this is hardly new news.
I asked this of Blutto before, if Weisel were the EPO guy, why was US Postal so slow onto the EPO train in 95-96 as alluded to by Tyler Hamilton in the Secret Race. Remember how Steffen Prentice was replaced by the Spanish doctors. Likewise Subaru-Montgomery rode in Europe in 92-93 but failed to make the Tour either year.
....sorry to get back to this party late....sooooo....
....the period that you are referring to was a period of transition in the way cycling teams operated....suddenly we had overt examples of this with the appearances of team buses, use of better hotels etc etc ( things were much more primitive before... )...this was a function of bigger money coming into the sport and the rationalization of the race system ( World Cup type series )...there was also a screaming need to deal with the new drugs that were being used....here real doctors were required because these drugs had proved deadly yet teams had to embrace them to stay competitive....but team doping programs required everybody to be onboard so if you still had some old guard figure heads who emphatically said no that would make implementing team programs difficult or impossible...is it a coincidence that Bauer leaves about the time the team program is instituted, I don't think so....
....the other thing about this heightened level of ,uhhh, professionalism is that it left out the smaller teams who didn't have the money to expand the organization to include team drug programs ( which on a yearly basis are expensive...whether they come from team coffers or from rider pools...)....much talk was made in the day in magazines mapping the voyages of smaller North American teams into the wilds of Europe and a lot of ink was spilled describing how backward the North American team structures were and how they were a major impediment to winning....another thing to consider is that drug taking in North America was generally done on an individual basis ( read it was a fairly clean system until the 80's and it was the best way not to get caught..to go to team doping you not only had to have the whole team on board but literally the whole peloton and the supporting organization...see the US track and field culture as an example of this development...)...
....so to see Montgomery Subaru fail because they did not have all the pieces required to compete as an organization is entirely understandable....they were not a big moneyed team and came from a cycling culture where team doping just wasn't done....but as we know that would most definitely change...
...so to look at the past thru modern experience is fraught with the danger of producing incorrect conclusions...team doping was not the norm, and besides the money simply wasn't there to support it...
Cheers
Move from Subaru-Montgomery 92/93 to US Postal in 95/96 and they were still not on EPO according to Hamilton. Weisel was the driving force behind the push to sign Europeans and get the program in 97. Again if he access to it as far back as 89/90 why wait so long. It doesn't add up. Of course it could all be BS but the preformance of Postal in Europe in 96 would most definitely suggest they were not on EPO.
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram