First EPO users in the peloton?

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re:

FGL, you should read the US cycling in the 70s and 80s- thread.

Thanks, I read that copy paste stuff 15 years ago. Nothing bad intended.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

FGL, you should read the US cycling in the 70s and 80s- thread.

Thanks, I read that copy paste stuff 15 years ago. Nothing bad intended.

And you kept that Montgomery investment all for yourself?

 

[Dr.Guess]

Re: Re:

FGL, you should read the US cycling in the 70s and 80s- thread.

Thanks, I read that copy paste stuff 15 years ago. Nothing bad intended.

Ok

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

...hmmm....I beg to differ and here is why...we had a somewhat similar problem, we had a product that would be a world beater and that could be protected by patenting the process that would make the key component for the product...being first to the race we patented the best process ( patents are a balancing act btw being broad enough to adequately cover your idea but not to overreach ...a clean accurate surgical strike that nails the target is the ideal...)...so the product is introduced and its a winner....and immediately we get competition but the processes they use are not as good as ours and we win...

...so it could well be that Amgen for whatever reason ( either its more cost effective to manufacture or that drug formulation is more efficient) patented the best process...if they hadn't their patent people would have to be incompetent/negligent ( its a pretty basic patent strategy so if you mess up on this one become a janitor or something )...

...just sayin' eh...

Cheers

Interesting. I humbly defer to your point.

 

[Maxiton]

I've announced at least twice now that for the time being we do not want talk of LeMond in this thread. Further mentions of LeMond in this thread will incur sanction.

Sniper, I've moved your post to the Sidebar Thread. If you'd like to remove the references to LeMond and repost it here, you're welcome to.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re: Re:

And you kept that Montgomery investment all for yourself?

Yep, because it is not interesting at all.

I can make a timeline too with everyone involved with anyone and then say one and one is two, but, for a matter of fact, one and one is often not two, only if you WANT it to be two.

For instance, do you think Esosfina got doped by Vanmol? He was on the same team.

I think not.

Same goes for many, many others.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

^i took this to the sidebar thread.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

And where the f is that?

 

[sniper]

viewtopic.php?p=1912132#p1912132

 

[staubsauger]

One idea I never thought about before. We do we even believe, that Bugno and Chiapucci were the first benfiters of EPO? We do we even buy the fact that it all started in 1990.

Conconi was hired by CONI to develop a test against EPO at that time. It's proven that instead he studied the benefits of it, perfectionized the dosage and introduced it to his clients which resulted in an enormous performance boost.

Why would CONI hire him? Why would he successfully create such a plot? Maybe because Epo already has been around since 88? Because Conconi knew that the plot was worth it? Because he knew he could ace it if he introduces the most effective dosage to his clients since Epo already had created stunning performances by mediocore riders at that time? Because CONI had a tiny idea about the upcoming danger already?

That still makes the Italians, Rominger, Indurain & co the first ones to benefit from a correct dosage / usage of EPO. But shouldn't the true pioneers be different names?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Excellent question staubsauger.

When you have Dutch sprinter Hermans stating he had used the stuff, 'you know who our team doctor was?', hinting at Fuentes, and given the timeline of both that was either at Caja Rural in 1988 or at Seur in 1990. The book where he did his admission ws about the Tour 1990 so it is ambigious.

My take on it it was first used as a drug to recuperate better - this is also supported by another Dutch rider Gert Jacobs, and, later, it was perfected by the Italians with the right kind of amount of iron what turned it into rocket fuel, when training properly of course.

Look, someone like Bugno was no talentless hack, but, his domination of the 1990 Giro was as impressive as how Indurain later rode, and we can be pretty sure how he did that.

 

[sniper]

Re:

One idea I never thought about before. We do we even believe, that Bugno and Chiapucci were the first benfiters of EPO? We do we even buy the fact that it all started in 1990.

Conconi was hired by CONI to develop a test against EPO at that time. It's proven that instead he studied the benefits of it, perfectionized the dosage and introduced it to his clients which resulted in an enormous performance boost.

Why would CONI hire him? Why would he successfully create such a plot? Maybe because Epo already has been around since 88? Because Conconi knew that the plot was worth it? Because he knew he could ace it if he introduces the most effective dosage to his clients since Epo already had created stunning performances by mediocore riders at that time? Because CONI had a tiny idea about the upcoming danger already?

That still makes the Italians, Rominger, Indurain & co the first ones to benefit from a correct dosage / usage of EPO. But shouldn't the true pioneers be different names?

great post.
yes, the true pioneers are likely different names.
i think if you look at where EPO was developed, and by which company, and then look which cyclist(s) had direct links to that company, you have your answer. As a matter of fact, that answer is/has been considered common knowledge in the peloton.
It's pretty much all out in the open.
The only thing missing is an admission, but i wouldn't wait for that.
don't hesitate to PM me if you have questions/comments.

 

[jens_attacks]

Re:

One idea I never thought about before. We do we even believe, that Bugno and Chiapucci were the first benfiters of EPO? We do we even buy the fact that it all started in 1990.

Conconi was hired by CONI to develop a test against EPO at that time. It's proven that instead he studied the benefits of it, perfectionized the dosage and introduced it to his clients which resulted in an enormous performance boost.

Why would CONI hire him? Why would he successfully create such a plot? Maybe because Epo already has been around since 88? Because Conconi knew that the plot was worth it? Because he knew he could ace it if he introduces the most effective dosage to his clients since Epo already had created stunning performances by mediocore riders at that time? Because CONI had a tiny idea about the upcoming danger already?

That still makes the Italians, Rominger, Indurain & co the first ones to benefit from a correct dosage / usage of EPO. But shouldn't the true pioneers be different names?

No, for me the true pioneers are those who benefited from it. Yes, diablo, rominger, indurain, bugno, coppino, aregentin. 1990-1992.

Frankie vdb said too that argentin was the pioneer.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Silver Moreno was pretty awesome prior to that time, but I think a lot of folks that early carreer of him. Ariostea, with the A of Awesomeness.

 

[Echoes]

Argentin and Bugno were stagnating by 1988/89. As a matter of fact, Italian cycling was at an all-time low in those two years. Argentin was very depressed and considered retiring. They consulted Ferrari and then phenixed.

Bugno's first massive performance on EPO was the 1990 Milan-Sanremo. He was 27 back then. The fastest average speed ever. What troubles me - a friend made me realise that - is that Rolf Golz could follow him, while having a rather good reputation.

I said earlier on that 1990 was a pivotal year in any way, including for the PDM rider. Argentin won the Tour of Flanders and Dhaenens was the only one who could keep his wheel. Later on Dhaenens got the World Title while he never proved such a great classic rider. Eddy Planckaert was impressive on Paris-Roubaix, able to counter Bauer casually on the Carrefour de l'Arbre and even attempting a solo attack on Aremberg !!! Chiappucci discovered at age 26 that he had potential. Same for Franco Ballerini winning the GP des Amériques and Paris-Brussels.

By the way thanks FGL for the comment on Hermans & 1990. Confirmation of what I said earlier on, 1989 was too early. Perhaps the very first experiment was Ferrari/Rominger at the 1989 Tour of Lombardy but that was the end of season ...

 

[GuyIncognito]

Bugno's first massive performance on EPO was the 1990 Milan-Sanremo. He was 27 back then. The fastest average speed ever. What troubles me - a friend made me realise that - is that Rolf Golz could follow him, while having a rather good reputation.

Reputations mean nothing

I said earlier on that 1990 was a pivotal year in any way, including for the PDM rider. Argentin won the Tour of Flanders and Dhaenens was the only one who could keep his wheel. Later on Dhaenens got the World Title while he never proved such a great classic rider.

See, this is the problem with you Echoes, people keep explaining the same things to you over and over and you keep pretending that you didn't see it and repeating the same disproven allegations. You've been told many times Dhaenens had several podiums in Roubaix and Flanders, he was a great classics rider, but you keep insisting he was a nobody.

He was also on EPO in the 1990 worlds, of course

Chiapucci discovered at age 26 that he had potential. Same for Franco Ballerini winning the GP des Amériques and Paris-Brussels.

Again, you've been told many times Chiapucci had potential from an early age and was amateur italian champion. Sure he didn't progress as was expected until years later when he started on EPO early on and had a major breakthrough, but you love to insist on what you want the facts to be.

Perhaps the very first experiment was Ferrari/Rominger at the 1989 Tour of Lombardy but that was the end of season ...

Yet another random speculation you post over and over despite being told a zillion times before. Romingers' hematocrit that day was 38%. He started taking EPO for the 1990 Vuelta where he boosted to 48%.

I look forward to your next post making all these claims yet again.

 

[Echoes]

I'm wondering when I ever was objected that while nobody ever talks to me here. Rather talk about Armstrong or LeMond, that's far more interesting I guess.

Dhaenens and De Wolf dominating in Utsunomiya was a joke. Both were PDM. PDM had discovered EPO that year. Dhaenens had to wake up at 3.00 am to adjust his body clock, that was in Flemish newspapers (Esafosfina recalls).

Dhaenens never podiumed the Tour of Flanders before 1990. He could get good results on Paris-Roubaix with a bit of luck, like with the 1987 morning breakaway (along with Versluys and Vandenbrande). But in 1990, all of a sudden, he was 2nd in the Tour of Flanders, 3rd in the Wincanton, 4th in Liège-Bastogne, 8th in the GP des Amériques, 9th in Paris-Roubaix, 10th in Ghent-Wevelgem AND World Champion. He had never been so consistent before and certainly not on Ardennes-types of races!

Sanders being supplied with EPO since 1990 is quite common knowledge.

Chiappucci was not among the Italian top talent in the eighties. It cannot even be discussed. Besides, I never made any claims about Rominger at the 1989 Tour of Lombardy. Just ask questions. But since nobody ever responds to me because it was a mere classic, so unimportant, I keep referring to it ...

 

[sniper]

Piece from 1991 in the Orlando Sentinel.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1991-06-24/sports/9106240140_1_repo-endurance-athletes-elite-athletes
Cites several people close to the game.
Especially Burke's statement is interesting, imo, in the context of early epo use among US cyclist.

''The effect of rEPO is dramatic,'' said Peter Snell, who won two Olympic gold medals in 1964 and is the director of the Human Performance Lab in Dallas. ''It's being used, and it will continue to be used more as the Olympics approach. I've already been asked, 'If so-and-so is using it, do I need to use it?' ''

'My fear is that it will become more and more prevalent in this country as the '92 Olympics approach,'' [Randy] Eichner said. ''If it's not used properly, your blood turns to mud, and you turn to stone.''

''You always have drugs come along that people say will enhance performance. Most of the time it's nonsense. This is not nonsense,'' said Dr. Don Catlin, head of the USOC's drug testing staff. ''And history tells us that if there is a drug out there to enhance performance, the athletes will use it. This is high on our list of concerns.''

''I'm still close enough to the situation that I have very, very strong suspicion that it's being used here in this country now,'' [Edmund] Burke said. ''It's a problem that won't go away because the stakes (Olympic gold medals) are too high. Athletes are willing to take the risks.''

 

[sniper]

Re:

...
Thanks for proving my point. Lots of links to Pro's using EPO in 1991 and later, none in 1989.

...
The only revisionist history is by those who pretend that riders were using EPO in 89

ouch...
viewtopic.php?p=2044609#p2044609
viewtopic.php?p=2044989#p2044989
viewtopic.php?p=2044991#p2044991

 

[sniper]

A salient find with implications for knowledge of doping in soccer and of early EPO usage in general.

https://twitter.com/MaRoVisions/status/815810070898425856

 

[Mr.38%]

Re:

A salient find with implications for knowledge of doping in soccer and of early EPO usage in general.

https://twitter.com/MaRoVisions/status/815810070898425856

Liesen is a very well known notorious doper, a lot of his work is related to ergogenetic effects of Testo in sports. He is also popular for his emphatic relationsship with athletes, much like Müller-Wohlfahrt. He only moved on to soccer at some point for financial reasons, I guess.

 

[This Charming Man]

Bugno's first massive performance on EPO was the 1990 Milan-Sanremo. He was 27 back then. The fastest average speed ever. What troubles me - a friend made me realise that - is that Rolf Golz could follow him, while having a rather good reputation.

Reputations mean nothing

I said earlier on that 1990 was a pivotal year in any way, including for the PDM rider. Argentin won the Tour of Flanders and Dhaenens was the only one who could keep his wheel. Later on Dhaenens got the World Title while he never proved such a great classic rider.

See, this is the problem with you Echoes, people keep explaining the same things to you over and over and you keep pretending that you didn't see it and repeating the same disproven allegations. You've been told many times Dhaenens had several podiums in Roubaix and Flanders, he was a great classics rider, but you keep insisting he was a nobody.

He was also on EPO in the 1990 worlds, of course

Chiapucci discovered at age 26 that he had potential. Same for Franco Ballerini winning the GP des Amériques and Paris-Brussels.

Again, you've been told many times Chiapucci had potential from an early age and was amateur italian champion. Sure he didn't progress as was expected until years later when he started on EPO early on and had a major breakthrough, but you love to insist on what you want the facts to be.

Perhaps the very first experiment was Ferrari/Rominger at the 1989 Tour of Lombardy but that was the end of season ...

Yet another random speculation you post over and over despite being told a zillion times before. Romingers' hematocrit that day was 38%. He started taking EPO for the 1990 Vuelta where he boosted to 48%.

I look forward to your next post making all these claims yet again.

Completely outlandish, only Armstrong could have had such mythical performances.

 

[Djoop]

Deleted post

 

[Huapango]

Re:

After all these years this topic still fascinates me. Eventhough cycling had a long history with doping before the introduction of EPO, this must have been a game changer, as you can clearly see in other endurance sports as well at the time. With various personal interests at stake, chances on false information tend to increase exponentially. For someone like me, not part of the cycling community, there's no way of being remotely certain. Still, I think you could roughly make the following timeline(s):

pre 1985; not possible, because epo wasn't avaiable.
post 1985; possible, avaiable and tested for VO2 max and performance time to exhaustion.

By 1988, it's not only tested, but also publicized in numerous articles. Knowledge likely came from that years Olympic winter games. Personally, I'd be disappointed if no rider in the peleton would have read a newspaper by then.

In cycling there are 3-4 stages.

1988-1990; first users
1991-1993; Conconi 1.0
1993-1996; Ferrari 1.0
1996-2003; Ferrari 2.0

First you have riders & doctors who experiment with EPO on various levels. Probably not the biggest contenders. One of them being Chiapucci.

Chiapucci leads to 1991's Oristea experience and between 1991 - 1993 there's a rift between epo users and the non epo users in the peleton. Most of the latter category retire.

Oristea leads to Ferrari 1.0 which basicly comes down to more epo and a training schedule that revolves around maxing blood values through a combination of EPO with other PEDs. Resulting in higher hct values as well, to the 50% treshold and mr. Extraterrestrial's retirement in 1996. And so the public missed out on Ugrumov exceeding the magic 68%.

After that you get the microdose strategy that helped Lance bore the Tour de France to death.

Lance didn't need to microdose. Protection= do whatever you want, and we'll make sure your competitors don't do the same. Currently, British athletes are being given the green light. Microdosing is for those without the protection.

 

[Djoop]

Re: Re:

Deleted post