First EPO users in the peloton?

[Escarabajo]

it is nothing like that. Lemond could easily have been doping - we just don't know (and it is long enough ago that we likely never will). the Pope could not really be a protestant, and there is lots of actual evidence that he is in fact Catholic.

pmcg76 said EPO, not doping. There is a difference.

 

[galaxy1]

lots of ridiculous opinions on this thread.

blood doping (i.e. transfusions) was well-known before the introduction of EPO, the US track team were doing it, Moser and italian doctors were doing it, various other athletes were almost certainly doing it in the early '80s. no-one can say for sure that cyclists were not doing it in the mid '80s and switched seamlessly onto EPO. a lot of posters seem to be equating the introduction of EPO with the end of true performances, which is nonsense.

i also don't buy any of these claims
* drug users aren't able to suffer (i.e. grimace)
* Lemond would still be winning now if it wasn't for EPO
* clean riders used to win a lot of races but can't any more, etc.
* current riders are now clean but were doping 2 years ago

 

[galaxy1]

pmcg76 said EPO, not doping. There is a difference.

not a relevant one - feel free to replace doping with EPO in my comment and re-read it.

 

[pmcg76]

lots of ridiculous opinions on this thread.

blood doping (i.e. transfusions) was well-known before the introduction of EPO, the US track team were doing it, Moser and italian doctors were doing it, various other athletes were almost certainly doing it in the early '80s. no-one can say for sure that cyclists were not doing it in the mid '80s and switched seamlessly onto EPO. a lot of posters seem to be equating the introduction of EPO with the end of true performances, which is nonsense.

Once again, it is not posters who came up with the line on EPO changing the sports, it was the riders themselves along with team managers, officials, journalists who were all around at the climb and of course the sudden jump in speed in the mountains at GTs, guys climbing in the big ring etc.

Of course there is a possibility of blood transfusions being used but there was never even any rumours about them and anybody who consequencely spilled their guts like Kimmage, Fignon, Joe Parkin sure never mentioned them. Kimmage wrote his book after retiring in 89 and not once was EPO mentioned in it. Ditto Parkin, first mention of EPO was 1990.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

lots of ridiculous opinions on this thread.

blood doping (i.e. transfusions) was well-known before the introduction of EPO, the US track team were doing it, Moser and italian doctors were doing it, various other athletes were almost certainly doing it in the early '80s. no-one can say for sure that cyclists were not doing it in the mid '80s and switched seamlessly onto EPO. a lot of posters seem to be equating the introduction of EPO with the end of true performances, which is nonsense.

i also don't buy any of these claims
* drug users aren't able to suffer (i.e. grimace)
* Lemond would still be winning now if it wasn't for EPO
* clean riders used to win a lot of races but can't any more, etc.
* current riders are now clean but were doping 2 years ago

Actually - you can say with some certainty that 'Blood doping' was not in Pro cycling during the 80's.

The 2 examples you gave for 'Blood doping' in cycling were both for track events - but more importantly both incidents were investiagted by their respective Olympic Committees and no other incidents like that took place within cycling.

Also there have been many books and confessions published about the activities of riders and teams during that era and there has been no mention of it.

 

[ultimobici]

Cus I find it very entertaining, and have done for 25-odd years?



Semantics are boring. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Blood boosting is far more unfair than what they were doing from 1903-1987, but what they were doing from 1903-1987 was also doping.

A lot of what we now refer to as doping was not illegal at all in that era.

In 1924 the Pélissier brothers quit the Tour in protest at the inhumane attitude of Desgranges. The interview that Albert Londres did with them afterwards is enlightening.

"You have no idea what the Tour de France is,' Henri said. "It's a calvary. And what's more, the way to the cross only had 14 stations — we've got 15.[7] We suffer on the road. But do you want to see how we keep going? Wait...'

From his bag he takes a phial. "That, that's cocaine for our eyes and chloroform for our gums..."

"Here," said Ville, tipping out the contents of his bag, "horse liniment to keep my knees warm. And pills? You want to see the pills?" They got out three boxes apiece.

"In short," said Francis, "we run on dynamite.'

Henri takes up the story. "You ever seen the baths at the finish? It's worth buying a ticket. You go in plastered with mud and you come out as white as a sheet. We're drained all the time by diarrhoea. Have a look at the water. We can't sleep at night. We're twitching as if we've got St Vitus's Dance. You see my shoelaces? They're leather, as hard as nails, but they're always breaking. So imagine what happens to our skin. And our toenails. I've lost six. They fall off a bit at a time all through the stage. They wouldn't treat mules the way we're treated. We're not weaklings, but my God, they treat us so brutally. And if I so much as stick a newspaper under my jersey at the start, they check to see it's still there at the finish. One day they'll start putting lumps of lead in our pocket because God made men too light."

None of this was against the rules.

While I don't agree with Michele Ferrari, I'll borrow his analogy albeit amended to the right side of the rules

He said "If it doesn't show up in the drug controls, then it's not doping"

My version is "If it isn't on the prohibited substances & practices list, then it's not doping"

So if Moser was blood doping to set the Hour Record his record was legal, as was the US Olympic team's use of it in LA.

 

[131313]

Originally Posted by NashbarShorts

"Don't know if you followed the sport back then, but this was pretty apparent. Each year there were 2-3 real contenders, and the rest were pretenders.
...


EPO closes that gap. In the prior era, nobody "became" a Tour contender. You either were or you weren't. Fignon won the first Tour he rode in, age 22. As did Hinault, age 23. Lemond, riding support for Fignon, went 3rd in his first Tour, age 23. C'mon. This is anecdotal evidence, but the concept of "emerging into a Tour winner at age 27-30"....that is EPO fairytale stuff."

+1. Agree. We need to set this in Stone in this forum.

Why would you want to set in stone things that simply aren't true?

I'd suggest doing a little more reading on Le Tour and it's history. Bobet didn't win his first of three until he was in his late 20's, and his early tours went even worse than Armstrong's. At least Big Tex never broke into tears on the big climbs!

Also, I don't see how EPO "closes the gap". Look at the margin of victory and the time splits among the top 10. Things don't look much different from the early 80's to the peak of the juiced era?

 

[ultimobici]

Also, I don't see how EPO "closes the gap". Look at the margin of victory and the time splits among the top 10. Things don't look much different from the early 80's to the peak of the juiced era?

I think that the gap that was closed wasn't between contenders rather the whole peleton.

 

[redtreviso]

Now in the high mountains there is an escapee or 3 and on tv they show the gap to the peloton. In the 80s there was an escapee and the gap back to a group of 12 of the best climbers and gc contenders. The "peloton" was not mentioned and not worth mentioning.. Now 1/3 of the field are drilling it all the way up the highest climbs.

 

[galaxy1]

Actually - you can say with some certainty that 'Blood doping' was not in Pro cycling during the 80's.

The 2 examples you gave for 'Blood doping' in cycling were both for track events - but more importantly both incidents were investiagted by their respective Olympic Committees and no other incidents like that took place within cycling.

Also there have been many books and confessions published about the activities of riders and teams during that era and there has been no mention of it.

...suggesting only that it was probably not widespread. you cannot possibly say that no further incidents took place. if, to choose just one example, Greg Lemond had been following the example of other top US cyclists and blood doping (alone) for his tour wins, we would be none the wiser.

So if Moser was blood doping to set the Hour Record his record was legal, as was the US Olympic team's use of it in LA.

yes - but it is hard to imagine that these methods were quietly forgotten, or that being banned (with no testing) stopped anyone from doing it.

 

[poupou]

Originally Posted by NashbarShorts

Why would you want to set in stone things that simply aren't true?

I'd suggest doing a little more reading on Le Tour and it's history. Bobet didn't win his first of three until he was in his late 20's, and his early tours went even worse than Armstrong's. At least Big Tex never broke into tears on the big climbs!

Reading is sometimes difficult ;D

Bobet finished 4th of his 2nd TDF in 1948 at 23yo after having worn 2 times the yellow jerzey !

He finished 3rd in 1950 winning KOM at 25yo and major mountain stages.

 

[hrotha]

Now in the high mountains there is an escapee or 3 and on tv they show the gap to the peloton. In the 80s there was an escapee and the gap back to a group of 12 of the best climbers and gc contenders. The "peloton" was not mentioned and not worth mentioning.. Now 1/3 of the field are drilling it all the way up the highest climbs.

Because nobody attacks.

In the rare occasions when they don't ride tempo, you see the peloton blown away as in the 80s. See stage 15 of this year TdF for an example.

 

[pmcg76]

Actually - you can say with some certainty that 'Blood doping' was not in Pro cycling during the 80's.

The 2 examples you gave for 'Blood doping' in cycling were both for track events - but more importantly both incidents were investiagted by their respective Olympic Committees and no other incidents like that took place within cycling.

Also there have been many books and confessions published about the activities of riders and teams during that era and there has been no mention of it.

I just thought of another rider who confessed to doping and wrote a book about it-Jesper Skibby

Skibby was another rider who began as a Pro in the 80s and rode through the 90s. I was going ask for info on his book but I found a review here

http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=10265

It would seem again that Skibby didnt start doping at all unti 91 and didnt start using EPO until 93. So for the first 4-5 years of his career he rode cleanly only taking legal vitamin, iron injections etc, now I know Skibby was not a household name but to finish 3rd in the main TT at the Tour as he did in 87 is a major achievement, especially doing it cleanly. It would also seem to indicate that he won a Giro stage cleanly in 89.

The article also notes that fellow Dane Soren Lilholt quit the sport in 92 due to the arrival of EPO saying he quite simply found that he could no longer beat riders whom he had been beating regularly all the way up through the 1980s.

Another Dane Per Pedersen also got out before having to use EPO, Pedersen was of course a former team-mate of Paul Kimmage at RMO and is mentioned numerous times in A Rough Ride

On a related Scandanavian hero, Norwegian Dag Otto Lauritzen, I remember him having a great final season after leaving Motorola & joining TVM. I always wondered about that and now it seems to make sense.

So I now have lost count of former riders who have talked about doping during their careers but have yet to find any mention of EPO or indeed blood doping pre 1990. It does seem that the Italians, Argentin & Bugno were at the forefront and most of the peloton followed in 91-94 by which time almost everyone was on EPO.

 

[pmcg76]

...suggesting only that it was probably not widespread. you cannot possibly say that no further incidents took place. if, to choose just one example, Greg Lemond had been following the example of other top US cyclists and blood doping (alone) for his tour wins, we would be none the wiser.


yes - but it is hard to imagine that these methods were quietly forgotten, or that being banned (with no testing) stopped anyone from doing it.

LeMond was no longer with the US Olympic programme by 84, he had been pro since 81 and already shown his abilities before 84.

As I mentioned in my previous post, there has been numerous confessions of doping in the 80s but am yet to hear a single mention of EPO pre 1990 or of blood doping at all. If it was happening, it must have been unders some super-secret sect. We are providing evidence that these things didnt happen so I thinks its time we had some evidence to the contrary.

 

[131313]

Reading is sometimes difficult ;D

Bobet finished 4th of his 2nd TDF in 1948 at 23yo after having worn 2 times the yellow jerzey !

He finished 3rd in 1950 winning KOM at 25yo and major mountain stages.

fair enough--he also dropped out in 47 and 49....

 

[131313]

I think that the gap that was closed wasn't between contenders rather the whole peleton.

If you look at the actually time gaps throughout the whole peloton though, there's no basis for this claim at all. You can look at the entire GC from 1980 to current. The only thing that stands out are the early years of EPO. When some guys were juiced and some weren't, things looked their most ridiculous.

http://www.the-sports.org/cycling-tour-de-france-1980-results-men-s2-c0-b0-g21-t94-u55-v1.html

 

[andy1234]

Actually - you can say with some certainty that 'Blood doping' was not in Pro cycling during the 80's.

The 2 examples you gave for 'Blood doping' in cycling were both for track events - but more importantly both incidents were investiagted by their respective Olympic Committees and no other incidents like that took place within cycling.

Also there have been many books and confessions published about the activities of riders and teams during that era and there has been no mention of it.

Bearing in mind the success Conconi and Ferrari had with Moser, it would be hard to believe that they didn't apply that knowledge to other pro riders in subsequent years.
Indeed, Ferrari is quoted (I think it was in Dan Coyles book)as saying he is responsible for another Tour de france victory in addition to those of Armstrongs.

Assuming that he wasn't involved with Pantani, Indurain, Riis or Ulrich, I would possibly guess at Roche? (Only a guess obviously)

 

[Dr. Maserati]

...suggesting only that it was probably not widespread. you cannot possibly say that no further incidents took place. if, to choose just one example, Greg Lemond had been following the example of other top US cyclists and blood doping (alone) for his tour wins, we would be none the wiser.


yes - but it is hard to imagine that these methods were quietly forgotten, or that being banned (with no testing) stopped anyone from doing it.

The Donati report blew the lid off doping in Italy, from the Moser era and well in to the EPO era in the 90's. Blood doping was used in other sports, but there was nothing else about cycling until EPO.


Who has ever managed to 'blood dope' "alone"?

In the absence of any evidence, even a whiff or a rumour from the any of the publications it is highly unlikely that blood doping was adopted for the road.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Bearing in mind the success Conconi and Ferrari had with Moser, it would be hard to believe that they didn't apply that knowledge to other pro riders in subsequent years.
Indeed, Ferrari is quoted (I think it was in Dan Coyles book)as saying he is responsible for another Tour de france victory in addition to those of Armstrongs.

Assuming that he wasn't involved with Pantani, Indurain, Riis or Ulrich, I would possibly guess at Roche? (Only a guess obviously)

In Matt Rendells (The death of Marco Pantani)book he loosely links that Pantani was working with Dr. Ferrari.

As part of the investigation after the Donati report - Roche is linked to EPO with Carerra, but not until 1993.

Conconi, Ferrari etc did use their knowledge on lots of athletes but not cyclists - as they were being paid by CONI for their 'research'

 

[pmcg76]

Bearing in mind the success Conconi and Ferrari had with Moser, it would be hard to believe that they didn't apply that knowledge to other pro riders in subsequent years.
Indeed, Ferrari is quoted (I think it was in Dan Coyles book)as saying he is responsible for another Tour de france victory in addition to those of Armstrongs.

Assuming that he wasn't involved with Pantani, Indurain, Riis or Ulrich, I would possibly guess at Roche? (Only a guess obviously)

Then show us the evidence please!!

Let me demonstrate how its done, below is a list of riders & officials who admitted to or talked openly about doping in the 80s and their associated teams during that period. Not one person on the list ever mentioned EPO or blood doping before 1990. Now the Italian and Spanish team are noticeable by their absence on the list so maybe they were up to something but doubt it, especially the Italains as they were rubbish in the late 80s.

PDM (Rooks)
Panasonic (Winnen/Peiper)
Buckler(Rooks/Winnen)
TVM(Skibby)
RMO (Kimmage/Voet)
Fagor (Kimmage)
KAS (Voet)
7-11 (Hampsten)
Skala(Skibby)
Helvetia(Delion)
Systeme-U(Fignon)
ADR(Planckaert)
Humo-B team of ADR(Parkin)
Histor/Sigma(Lilholt/Holm)

That is a good list of many of the top teams from the late 80s and also take into account riders moving from teams not on the list to team which are, then surely if something was happening in those unlisted teams, news would have spread and people would have known about it.

 

[andy1234]

In Matt Rendells (The death of Marco Pantani)book he loosely links that Pantani was working with Dr. Ferrari.

As part of the investigation after the Donati report - Roche is linked to EPO with Carerra, but not until 1993.

Conconi, Ferrari etc did use their knowledge on lots of athletes but not cyclists - as they were being paid by CONI for their 'research'

If I remember correctly, Rendell states that he was unable to trace who Pantani was working with during his Giro/Tour double.

As far as saying Conconi etc did not use their knowledge with cyclists during their CONI research, that is pure speculation.

 

[andy1234]

Then show us the evidence please!!

Let me demonstrate how its done, below is a list of riders & officials who admitted to or talked openly about doping in the 80s and their associated teams during that period. Not one person on the list ever mentioned EPO or blood doping before 1990. Now the Italian and Spanish team are noticeable by their absence on the list so maybe they were up to something but doubt it, especially the Italains as they were rubbish in the late 80s.

PDM (Rooks)
Panasonic (Winnen/Peiper)
Buckler(Rooks/Winnen)
TVM(Skibby)
RMO (Kimmage/Voet)
Fagor (Kimmage)
KAS (Voet)
7-11 (Hampsten)
Skala(Skibby)
Helvetia(Delion)
Systeme-U(Fignon)
ADR(Planckaert)
Humo-B team of ADR(Parkin)
Histor/Sigma(Lilholt/Holm)

That is a good list of many of the top teams from the late 80s and also take into account riders moving from teams not on the list to team which are, then surely if something was happening in those unlisted teams, news would have spread and people would have known about it.

I cant show you evidence, as I said, its just guesswork.

 

[pmcg76]

I cant show you evidence, as I said, its just guesswork.

Then perhaps you would stop spouting this idea that blood doping was being used in the pro peloton during the 80s.

Now I am not saying 100% it wasnt happening but based on the testimonies we have heard and I have displayed, it would seem highly unlikely that blood doping was taking place or even that EPO was used before 1990. Some hard info always beats guesswork.

 

[andy1234]

Then perhaps you would stop spouting this idea that blood doping was being used in the pro peloton during the 80s.

Now I am not saying 100% it wasnt happening but based on the testimonies we have heard and I have displayed, it would seem highly unlikely that blood doping was taking place or even that EPO was used before 1990. Some hard info always beats guesswork.

I'll spout anything I like thanks. You havn't been paying attention if you think that everything posted around here is based on hard facts.

If blood doping was prevalent and highly successfull in other areas of cycle racing, then there is a good chance that it filtered through to the highest level of the sport, documented or not.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If I remember correctly, Rendell states that he was unable to trace who Pantani was working with during his Giro/Tour double.

As far as saying Conconi etc did not use their knowledge with cyclists during their CONI research, that is pure speculation.

Speculation? Please show me what you have?