First EPO users in the peloton?

[131313]

I am not sure about the 1% you picked to be random, because coincidentally that is the number that some experts have said the amphetamines (1-2%) advantage was in the 80's. So to choose this number would make the doping very plausible to be performed on the top contenders without being noticed. As opposed to 10-20% of the newer methods which would dramatically stick out among the contenders.

I am not an expert on these blood transfusions but I know the death rate of red cells to be higher and higher as time progresses (30-45 days) to a point where the efficiency of doing the blood transfusion would be worthless. I am sure Doctors even then knew that so I am skeptical about why they would perform these risky and complicated procedures for such small gains. I am not even sure if after this time it would be health compromising.

Again, nobody would do the blood doping without knowing the clear advantage that they were getting out of it.

If you look at the link I just posted, there was quite a bit of available research available which demonstrated the effectiveness of blood transfusions. The benefits were well known, and they were nothing like "1%".

The benefits were fairly well-known, and significant; on a par with the benefits of EPO. There may be plenty of reasons why road racers weren't using this method extensively (and there's no evidence they were using it), but "it didn't work", "they didn't know how, or "they didn't know how well it worked" are not reasons.

 

[poupou]

Before internet, to have access to scientific research publications was less easy. All publications were not available in each university or research center.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Daryl

Perhaps you can add to my list of teams where there didnt seem to be any mention of Blood transfusions or EPO pre 1990.

Did you hear about these things whilst with Teka, I know you might not have been tight with the Spaniards but there were a few guys you must have talked with, any mention of these subjects.

Within Teka I heard nothing and saw nothing of any PED use but did see a rider inject with iron in there room.
Teka was a long standing and larger than average team at the time of 23, 24 riders but never seemed to ever be a dominating team with rarely a genuine GT contender.
It seemed , despite its size to be a fairly backward ran set up and my Allan team bike was by far the worst machine I ever rode during my prime years..didnt fit and was probably the slopiest and worst handling bike in the entire peloton.
Im not aware of Teka riders ever testing possitive ( though I very much doupt every rider was clean)and dont think there was any systematic doping....but my impression was that systematic team programs were rare to non existant back then.
Rooks and Thuinisse were also in that 89 Tour Of Americas and I`ve a recollection of seeing them at breakfast one morning and being astounded how fit ( chiselled) they both looked. The race was in Febuary FFS!
As history now shows they were paws were well in the dope jar.

 

[Escarabajo]

...don't mean to point out the obvious but 1% of a 100 hours ( the time kinda/sort-of a GT ) is 1 hour...so where does that put 1 min. or 24 sec or 8 sec...or put another way the only advantage you need in a photo finish is what %wise...

Cheers

blutto

Good try. 1% of a mountain climb. Not of a flat stage. You can add them up including some bad days when the rider don't feel as good and looses some time. That would make the difference into minutes or seconds only. With EPO you hardly have a bad day.

Thanks.

 

[Escarabajo]

If you look at the link I just posted, there was quite a bit of available research available which demonstrated the effectiveness of blood transfusions. The benefits were well known, and they were nothing like "1%".

The benefits were fairly well-known, and significant; on a par with the benefits of EPO. There may be plenty of reasons why road racers weren't using this method extensively (and there's no evidence they were using it), but "it didn't work", "they didn't know how, or "they didn't know how well it worked" are not reasons.

I agree on what you said.

 

[andy1234]

I am not sure about the 1% you picked to be random, because coincidentally that is the number that some experts have said the amphetamines (1-2%) advantage was in the 80's. So to choose this number would make the doping very plausible to be performed on the top contenders without being noticed. As opposed to 10-20% of the newer methods which would dramatically stick out among the contenders.

I am not an expert on these blood transfusions but I know the death rate of red cells to be higher and higher as time progresses (30-45 days) to a point where the efficiency of doing the blood transfusion would be worthless. I am sure Doctors even then knew that so I am skeptical about why they would perform these risky and complicated procedures for such small gains. I am not even sure if after this time it would be health compromising.

Again, nobody would do the blood doping without knowing the clear advantage that they were getting out of it.

I refer only to GT’s. Who cares about doing a blood transfusion to win a Dauphine in the 80’s. Please give me a break. As for a one day race, could be very plausible but I thought we were only focused on the GT’s. To be honest I will not argue with you about doing the blood transfusion for a 1 day race. In fact, I don’t care.

Thanks.

 

[Escarabajo]

English is my second language and I know have my limitations when writing. I try my best but sometimes I can be missunderstood. So having said that if you have a comment you want to make please do so. Maybe I can make myself clear this time.

 

[Nick777]

Where are hard facts that Viren doped (blood)? Never heard of these...

He denies it, but the rest of the world were skeptical, mainly due to his performances being sub-par between Olympics. His team mates admitting to blood doping didn't help. Neither did breaking a world record after falling over during the race. Neither did running 5th in the marathon less than 24 hours after winning an Olympic gold in the 5000, despite having never run a marathon before.
Like many unbelievable performers/performances... 'looks to good to be true/is too good to be true'.

 

[SweFinn]

He denies it, but the rest of the world were skeptical, mainly due to his performances being sub-par between Olympics. His team mates admitting to blood doping didn't help. Neither did breaking a world record after falling over during the race. Neither did running 5th in the marathon less than 24 hours after winning an Olympic gold in the 5000, despite having never run a marathon before.
Like many unbelievable performers/performances... 'looks to good to be true/is too good to be true'.

Lasse Virén has written in his memoirs about the doping practices in the Finnish national team. Almost everyone doped, except himself of course. Not credible if you ask me.
The explanation of his denial is probably connected to his political ambitions, he has been a member of the Finnish parliament between 1999-2007.

Confessing doping is not a good career move if you want people to vote for you!

 

[Von Mises]

He denies it, but the rest of the world were skeptical, mainly due to his performances being sub-par between Olympics. His team mates admitting to blood doping didn't help. Neither did breaking a world record after falling over during the race. Neither did running 5th in the marathon less than 24 hours after winning an Olympic gold in the 5000, despite having never run a marathon before.
Like many unbelievable performers/performances... 'looks to good to be true/is too good to be true'.

Claim was about hard evidence, not rumors. He cleary peaked for Olympics, but did pretty well also non-Olympics event. His fall in record breaking 10 000 was not a big deal, it happened in the middle of the race when pace was slow- Btw, it happened 1972, but blood doping accusations surfaced 1976, so for 4 years this falling over during the race was not suspicious? I dont know about his teammates admitting blood doping, as far as I know only 1 finnish runner admitted it (Kaarlo Maaninka) and I would not call him teammate of Viren.

Anyway. Rumors are rumors. I dont know did Viren blooddope or not, but I dont know any hard evidence.

 

[galaxy1]

obviously hard evidence of the 80s era is sketchy and the only hard evidence we'll now gather is in the form of personal confessions. everything else is speculation.

however there are still some extremely naive underlying assumptions appearing on this thread. especially, just because the italian authorities investigated a lot of what was going on and other countries did not, does not "prove" that other nationalities were innocent. it just gives us a snapshot of the sorts of things that happened routinely in the 80s. remember also that the olympics at the time were a highly politicised extension of the cold war - there were very few "saints" taking part.

the top riders would definitely have heard about the performance advantages of blood doping, and if they wanted to try it, they could have done so. i find it hard to believe that noone did. when EPO came along, i am sure that riders were on the bandwagon at the first possible opportunity, and i'm sure that took over, as uncontrolled use of EPO is easier and probably more effective than blood doping. i'm not so sure that the transition would have been noticeable in terms of specific performances.

a lot of the change in racing style that people are mentioning may (possibly) be indicative of a more professional, widespread culture where whole teams started to tap into a GT winner's programme - superceding an earlier, simpler model where maybe only the rich, famous leader was using a personal doctor and blood doping and his lowly domestiques were just taking cheap belgian pot (or whatever) to get through races.

if this is anywhere near true then blood doping before this would be hard to trace - once you won your five tours and paid off the doctor, you could retire happy and famous with no suspicions raised. with the teams involved the stakes are massively raised, logistics are far more difficult and strict omerta is required.

 

[fatterboy]

Carrera team of Chiapucci and Roche in 1992.

Chiapucci yes Roche don't bring him into this no way he was on EPO he was pure class I rate him above any rider from 1990 onwards Figon no Lemond no Romminer of cause he was Bungo too .As for tour winners from 91 - 2000 all of them ,2000 onwards what ever was undetectable in tests either dope or other means to have more blood in the body.

to say Figon,Lemond and Roche took EPO you never seen these guys race before 1990 these guys are class above any current riders now.
they should not be in this thread at all.

 

[hrotha]

Chiapucci yes Roche don't bring him into this no way he was on EPO he was pure class I rate him above any rider from 1990 onwards Figon no Lemond no Romminer of cause he was Bungo too .As for tour winners from 91 - 2000 all of them ,2000 onwards what ever was undetectable in tests either dope or other means to have more blood in the body.

to say Figon,Lemond and Roche took EPO you never seen these guys race before 1990 these guys are class above any current riders now.
they should not be in this thread at all.

On the off chance you're serious: there's no doubt Roche used EPO, it's well documented. He probably wasn't using it right, though, or maybe he was just too old by then.

 

[fatterboy]

Roche.

(Plus padding so that the forum software accepts the message)

If he was his body wouldn't have f#*ked the next year he was above EPO .

 

[fatterboy]

On the off chance you're serious: there's no doubt Roche used EPO, it's well documented. He probably wasn't using it right, though, or maybe he was just too old by then.

Can you tell me were I can find this please.
I will be shocked seriously

 

[fatterboy]

If he was his body wouldn't have f#*ked the next year he was above EPO .

I realy hope he was above it.

 

[Chuffy]

Can you tell me were I can find this please.
I will be shocked seriously

Google 'Roche + Conconi'. Brings up plenty of stuff. Basically an Italian judge investigating Conconi found that Roche had been supplied with EPO. Try this article for a summary.

 

[fatterboy]

Google 'Roche + Conconi'. Brings up plenty of stuff. Basically an Italian judge investigating Conconi found that Roche had been supplied with EPO. Try this article for a summary.

Thanks for that
still it was in is last year but I realy thought he was above it as I had seen him race in the 80's and he was just so classy.
******.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

obviously hard evidence of the 80s era is sketchy and the only hard evidence we'll now gather is in the form of personal confessions. everything else is speculation.

however there are still some extremely naive underlying assumptions appearing on this thread. especially, just because the italian authorities investigated a lot of what was going on and other countries did not, does not "prove" that other nationalities were innocent. it just gives us a snapshot of the sorts of things that happened routinely in the 80s. remember also that the olympics at the time were a highly politicised extension of the cold war - there were very few "saints" taking part.

the top riders would definitely have heard about the performance advantages of blood doping, and if they wanted to try it, they could have done so. i find it hard to believe that noone did. when EPO came along, i am sure that riders were on the bandwagon at the first possible opportunity, and i'm sure that took over, as uncontrolled use of EPO is easier and probably more effective than blood doping. i'm not so sure that the transition would have been noticeable in terms of specific performances.

a lot of the change in racing style that people are mentioning may (possibly) be indicative of a more professional, widespread culture where whole teams started to tap into a GT winner's programme - superceding an earlier, simpler model where maybe only the rich, famous leader was using a personal doctor and blood doping and his lowly domestiques were just taking cheap belgian pot (or whatever) to get through races.

if this is anywhere near true then blood doping before this would be hard to trace - once you won your five tours and paid off the doctor, you could retire happy and famous with no suspicions raised. with the teams involved the stakes are massively raised, logistics are far more difficult and strict omerta is required.

This appears to go back to what I wrote earlier about the investigations - my point was that after full investigations in both USA & Italy no other incidents within cycling came to light within those countries - I never said anything about other countries.

Again, why there is this discussion is the notion that there was 'blood doping' within PRO cycling - even though there is no evidence, or rumor. Nothing in the investigations and nothing within any of the confessions or books that discussed that time.

You wrote this:

the top riders would definitely have heard about the performance advantages of blood doping.

This is not quite correct - if you read '131313s' linked review earlier which was written in 1988, there is still debate/confusion on exactly how much of a gain and how the gains were made.
Add to this no specific study on road cycling it would have been difficult to determine if there was a benefit to riders.

This is not to say it was not considered or never done in Pro road cycling - but it is incorrect to automatically assume that it had.

 

[Escarabajo]

Thanks for that
still it was in is last year but I realy thought he was above it as I had seen him race in the 80's and he was just so classy.
******.

If it is any consolation, his late performances did not actually show he was doing something wrong.

 

[Escarabajo]

...
This is not quite correct - if you read '131313s' linked review earlier which was written in 1988, there is still debate/confusion on exactly how much of a gain and how the gains were made.
...

Thanks to 131313 for the article. Nice information.

I remember BigBoat talking about the storage of frozen red blood cells to up to ten years and people laughing about it in this forum.

 

[galaxy1]

after full investigations in both USA & Italy no other incidents within cycling came to light within those countries - I never said anything about other countries.

we have no idea how 'full' these investigations were, and probably never will. there could have been no other dirty italian or american riders for the whole decade than those mentioned - or not. we can only guess.

Again, why there is this discussion is the notion that there was 'blood doping' within PRO cycling - even though there is no evidence, or rumor. Nothing in the investigations and nothing within any of the confessions or books that discussed that time.

maybe the perpetrators got away with it, won their races, and retired quietly and happily. the few confessions and rumours we have are so patchy that they cannot possibly be assumed to give a complete picture.

there is still debate/confusion on exactly how much of a gain and how the gains were made.
Add to this no specific study on road cycling it would have been difficult to determine if there was a benefit to riders.

This is not to say it was not considered or never done in Pro road cycling - but it is incorrect to automatically assume that it had.

I agree, it should not be automatically assumed. I'd be amazed if noone had ever tried it though (Zoetemelk and Hinault have already been mentioned as riders who may well have done so).

 

[Von Mises]

Lasse Virén has written in his memoirs about the doping practices in the Finnish national team. Almost everyone doped, except himself of course. Not credible if you ask me.
The explanation of his denial is probably connected to his political ambitions, he has been a member of the Finnish parliament between 1999-2007.

Confessing doping is not a good career move if you want people to vote for you!

Viren has not written memoirs. And Ive never heard that his written or talked about doping practices in the Finnish national team.

 

[131313]

This is not quite correct - if you read '131313s' linked review earlier which was written in 1988, there is still debate/confusion on exactly how much of a gain and how the gains were made.
Add to this no specific study on road cycling it would have been difficult to determine if there was a benefit to riders.

This is not to say it was not considered or never done in Pro road cycling - but it is incorrect to automatically assume that it had.

I agree with your conclusion that blood doping wasn't prevalent, but I disagree with your assessment of the research. This is the author's comment, which which I agree:

"The overwhelming impression from the studies shown in Table 1 is that if sufficient red cells are transfused a definite
improvement can be obtained in endurance performance."

Keep in mind that this review details only autologous transfusions (except the Pace study). It was already known that homologous transfusions eliminated the downsides (RBC deterioration and detraining after withdrawal). That's why Eddie B encouraged the Olympians to "find a clean relative".

Again, I agree with your thoughts that it wasn't extensively used. There just isn't any evidence that it was common, and I have to believe it would have come out by now. I honestly don't know why it wasn't used more. It certainly wasn't concern over the riders' health. Doctors didn't think twice about using human test subjects for EPO experiments...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I agree with your conclusion that blood doping wasn't prevalent, but I disagree with your assessment of the research. This is the author's comment, which which I agree:

"The overwhelming impression from the studies shown in Table 1 is that if sufficient red cells are transfused a definite
improvement can be obtained in endurance performance."

Keep in mind that this review details only autologous transfusions (except the Pace study). It was already known that homologous transfusions eliminated the downsides (RBC deterioration and detraining after withdrawal). That's why Eddie B encouraged the Olympians to "find a clean relative".

Again, I agree with your thoughts that it wasn't extensively used. There just isn't any evidence that it was common, and I have to believe it would have come out by now. I honestly don't know why it wasn't used more. It certainly wasn't concern over the riders' health. Doctors didn't think twice about using human test subjects for EPO experiments...

Actually I agree with the Authors comments (in red above) - just my interpretation of the rest of their review was showing the difficulty in logistics and the risk of depletion of RBCs, which you have just addressed.

'Blood doping' was certainly known about in the sport - IIRC there was an article in 'Winning magazine' by Dr. Edmund R. Burke (who was involved with the 84 Olympic track team ) writing about it and its 'benefits' in his monthly column** in 85 or 86.

On the blue above - I think the Doctors were more interested (and better funded) by concentrating on Olympic sports - so if a rider wanted to blood dope it was left to themselves to set up. As you say - it certainly wasn't any moral decision by riders or those Doctors.

** If anyone can remember the article it would be appreciated