Floyd to be charged with fraud

[MarkvW]

Landis was a foot soldier, not a slave. If he wanted to sign a contract and lead his own team, they couldn't stop him. Not immediately, anyway. But in any case Landis and his piddly ass little team was nothing in comparison to Tailwind, and Armstrong and Weisel and UCI, et al., and everything they were into. For all parties concerned on the LA side we're talking real money, huge money, continuously, much of it well outside the cycling world. Landis may have led a team, but Armstrong was still the boss, as the whole peloton knew (hence their nickname for him -- which was never a compliment).

So if Lance should get off, everybody should get off? Not just for doping, but also for defrauding fans? Sorry, I can't agree with that.

 

[Maxiton]

So if Lance should get off, everybody should get off? Not just for doping, but also for defrauding fans? Sorry, I can't agree with that.

Go back to square one, start over. Read it again.

 

[MarkvW]

Go back to square one, start over. Read it again.

I'd suggest that when it comes to Floyd Landis, the decision to indict or not to indict should be based more on a consideration of what happened to other people who took hundreds of thousands of dollars under false pretenses than on Floyd's pecking order in the highly dysfunctional world of pro cycling.

 

[BotanyBay]

Agree with all of the above. And your reading of his motivation for outing LA is, IMO, spot on.

I lost any sympathy for Landis when he tried to blackmail Lemond with threats of revealing the latter's childhood sexual abuse. (And, by the way, don't be surprised if you see blackmail -- aka extortion -- among the crimes he is charged with, if he is charged.)

I think as far as his limited confession goes, it was pretty much a case of his saying to himself, "If I have to throw myself under the bus in order to throw LA under there, I'll do it, I don't care. Big Tex is going to jail." But he did hold back just enough, he hoped, to keep himself from becoming LA's cellmate.

If you step back and look at it, though, you see there is more at issue here than Landis and his rashness and his efforts to be a tough guy. Landis was a small fry, just one more rider among many corrupted and taken advantage of by what was essentially a criminal conspiracy. This desperate, flawed athlete, filled with thoughts of revenge, strapped a bomb onto his body and walked into the big bosses' office, with the intention of taking them all out. The bosses used their long reach to buy off the bomb maker, however, and the only person who ended up getting hurt was Landis. Now, the police, also on the bosses' payroll, threaten to roll up and take our injured, raving anti-hero away. After they do, the bosses will share a laugh and a drink and life will go on as before.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to have any part in that process. None of it encourages truth or transparency -- quite the opposite, in fact -- and in any case it just isn't right. If the boss isn't going to take a fall, I say leave the foot soldier alone.

See guys. I'm not crazy. I'm not vile. I can dislike Lance and Floyd at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive to each other. Lance may be the bigger a-hole, but Floyd still carries a lot of a-hole baggage with him (that he's not yet ready to shed).

And to Dr. Maserati: Go back and read your "Kimmage Interview Bible" again. Floyd is asked point-blank if he regrets this stuff. And he was quite candid in saying that he would do most everything the same way (all over again). The only thing he would change is that he would have told the truth after getting caught. The only thing he actually regrets is that "people got hurt", but he doesn't regret hurting them. Because in his mind, he didn't hurt them, "they just got hurt". But you can't regret anything that you have not actually taken responsibility for, so everything leading-up to his getting caught, as far as Floyd is concerned, he really did nothing wrong. He's still living in victim-ville.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Agree with all of the above. And your reading of his motivation for outing LA is, IMO, spot on.

Getting Lance was not his prime motivation - I am sure he enjoyed watching LA & JB and in particular the UCI squirm.

But if his goal was to get them then he had no need to bring up DaveZ, who he was best friends with. There was no reason to even mention him.

I lost any sympathy for Landis when he tried to blackmail Lemond with threats of revealing the latter's childhood sexual abuse. (And, by the way, don't be surprised if you see blackmail -- aka extortion -- among the crimes he is charged with, if he is charged.)

I think as far as his limited confession goes, it was pretty much a case of his saying to himself, "If I have to throw myself under the bus in order to throw LA under there, I'll do it, I don't care. Big Tex is going to jail." But he did hold back just enough, he hoped, to keep himself from becoming LA's cellmate.

If you step back and look at it, though, you see there is more at issue here than Landis and his rashness and his efforts to be a tough guy. Landis was a small fry, just one more rider among many corrupted and taken advantage of by what was essentially a criminal conspiracy. This desperate, flawed athlete, filled with thoughts of revenge, strapped a bomb onto his body and walked into the big bosses' office, with the intention of taking them all out. The bosses used their long reach to buy off the bomb maker, however, and the only person who ended up getting hurt was Landis. Now, the police, also on the bosses' payroll, threaten to roll up and take our injured, raving anti-hero away. After they do, the bosses will share a laugh and a drink and life will go on as before.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to have any part in that process. None of it encourages truth or transparency -- quite the opposite, in fact -- and in any case it just isn't right. If the boss isn't going to take a fall, I say leave the foot soldier alone.

I agree about LeMond and to BBs broader point of those who were directly effected by the continuous lies and deceit.
They are the ones who are owed the apology and any restitutuon, not Tailwind investors who wanted to get one over the AFLD.

I would agree that under its current guise the investigation in to FL looks petty and as you point out does not encourage truth and transparency.
However if there was misappropriation then it would be correct.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

See guys. I'm not crazy. I'm not vile. I can dislike Lance and Floyd at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive to each other. Lance may be the bigger a-hole, but Floyd still carries a lot of a-hole baggage with him (that he's not yet ready to shed).

And to Dr. Maserati: Go back and read your "Kimmage Interview Bible" again. Floyd is asked point-blank if he regrets this stuff. And he was quite candid in saying that he would do most everything the same way (all over again). The only thing he would change is that he would have told the truth after getting caught. The only thing he actually regrets is that "people got hurt", but he doesn't regret hurting them. Because in his mind, he didn't hurt them, "they just got hurt". But you can't regret anything that you have not actually taken responsibility for, so everything leading-up to his getting caught, as far as Floyd is concerned, he really did nothing wrong. He's still living in victim-ville.

What?
It wasn't the doping that "hurt" anyone. If he had never been caught do you think he (& those around him) would feel anything about it? His ex wife knew, his friends knew.

Also - your attribution of "quotes" is rather disingenuous.

You’ve said in a previous interview with Bonnie Ford of ESPN that you don’t feel guilty about having doped and I understand that given the context of who you were riding for (Lance Armstrong) and what you saw on that team (US Postal). The question I would ask is ‘Do you feel regret at having doped?’

I do feel regret and I’ll define exactly why I do…These decisions that I made, that I don’t necessarily feel guilty about, ended up causing people that I care about – my family and people around me – tremendous amounts of stress, and that part I regret. But I don’t want to take that too far because if I had never made those decisions, in all likelihood, I wouldn’t have raced the Tour de France ever. Because of my career and the team I ended-up on, if I wasn’t willing to do that (dope), I wasn’t going to be there. I wouldn’t have experienced any of the good things that I got out of it or any of the bad things, so for me, it’s okay, I can handle it. But they affected other people and for that reason I regret it.

 

[thehog]

See guys. I'm not crazy. I'm not vile. I can dislike Lance and Floyd at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive to each other. Lance may be the bigger a-hole, but Floyd still carries a lot of a-hole baggage with him (that he's not yet ready to shed).

No you are vile.

I don’t believe you and your claimed merits and morals of the situation. You’re possessing a tremendous amount of anger in regards to the situation. You’re pontificating on a soap box in a fashion that somehow you’ve been wronged by this situation. Hardly. You’re just some guy in a chat room but you talk like you were there and personally impacted. You’re pretending he’s not sorry for what happened. What more does he need to do? Lose everything then that will show he’s sorry? Remember Landis is the one dealing with all of this not you.

Which troubles me about the merits of your posts is you appear to be taking on an awful lot and have anger building up for his family? But at the same time coming on to an internet chat room to poke fun at his material situation and housing circumstances. You can’t claim it both ways. You can’t pretend that it outrages you at the same time mocking it all over the internet. That doesn’t add up. Your anger and method mocking is rather strange. God forbid if you ever find yourself in the same situation. I think you throw all the personal stuff in for effect but really there’s not a lot in your post of any substances let alone fact.

As for Landis’s intentions I think you misread him. Sure he’s bitter. I would be to. He made some terrible mistakes but he’s loyalty to the omerta was golden. He kept quiet for many years. Yes he was protecting his own lot but the Comeback 2.0 would have never even been dreamt up if he had told the full story back in 2006. You seem to be outraged that he’s dropped Armstrong in it. Why not – its part of the story. Or are you of the same thinking that a “managed part confession” is the way to do it? Perhaps Basso or Ullrich could have schooled Landis on the right way to do it. Those guys were lucky. They didn’t just win a Tour before having it taken away. He took care of Armstrong and if there was a way back into the Pro ranks then Armstrong should show some loyalty and managed him back in. His influence in 2010 was massive. Alas as it turns out that not only did Armstrong not want him on RS but he actively was on a mission to ensure they guy didn’t progress past small town races in the US. That’s not playing fair and that’s not looking after those who took care of you and your secret.

What I find strange in all of this you keep blaming Landis for dropping the Armstrong bomb but if Armstrong was true to his words and was “clean” then there would be no bomb to drop. I think your anger is misguided. You’re blaming Landis for Armstrong doping because you thought he was clean. I think that’s what’s up with you. Time to reset your target anger.

I believe history will judge Landis well. It’s not until we know the full story that we’ll understand better why he did the things he did. The Federal case would have enlighten us on some of those “backroom” discussions between Armstrong, Landis and FFF. But for now we only have half the picture. Time will tell. Time will tell.

 

[MarkvW]

What?
It wasn't the doping that "hurt" anyone. If he had never been caught do you think he (& those around him) would feel anything about it? His ex wife knew, his friends knew.

Also - your attribution of "quotes" is rather disingenuous.

That's the whole point. Floyd was a happy contented, doper until he got caught. And he wouldn't change a thing about that.

 

[Digger]

See guys. I'm not crazy. I'm not vile. I can dislike Lance and Floyd at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive to each other. Lance may be the bigger a-hole, but Floyd still carries a lot of a-hole baggage with him (that he's not yet ready to shed).
And to Dr. Maserati: Go back and read your "Kimmage Interview Bible" again. Floyd is asked point-blank if he regrets this stuff. And he was quite candid in saying that he would do most everything the same way (all over again). The only thing he would change is that he would have told the truth after getting caught. The only thing he actually regrets is that "people got hurt", but he doesn't regret hurting them. Because in his mind, he didn't hurt them, "they just got hurt". But you can't regret anything that you have not actually taken responsibility for, so everything leading-up to his getting caught, as far as Floyd is concerned, he really did nothing wrong. He's still living in victim-ville.

Yeah but i haven't seen you mention Lance's family, former wife, his children...
What i thought was particularly classy was your mention of Floyd's father in law. What could you possibly know about that situation? How weak does your argument have to be that you feel these people are fair game?
You mention a few pages back that you are a fair person, something along those lines anyway...yet you come out with this VILE stuff that nobody should come out with on here. I mean do you have any respect whatsoever.

You have an opinion that no one will ever change. No one. But why you feel the need to add this vile nonsense, that you have no knowledge of, is disgusting.

 

[BotanyBay]

He took care of Armstrong and if there was a way back into the Pro ranks then Armstrong should show some loyalty and managed him back in.

Honor among thieves? You crack me up.

Also, thanks for revealing that your hatred of me (and what I have said) really has to do with your hatred of Lance Armstrong for making Landis weather the storm solo.

Floyd is not being crucified for the sins of Lance Armstrong. Floyd is being crucified for sins of his own. Lance just had enough shekels to buy his way out of Pilate's office.

 

[Digger]

The Lance Armstrong investigation brought me to this forum and now it is over.

My time here has enabled me to learn a lot about a very small subculture of people who gather to spend a lot of their time and energy discussing all the negative aspects of Lance Armstrong. I've spent a lot of time (way too much) with you all. Thank you all very much for sharing with me.

I'm going to try to put Lance Armstrong way in the back of some mental closet, forever I hope. Any publicity is good for him, and I don't think I want to contribute any more.

For those of you that remain, I sincerely hope that something useful comes out of your time spent participating here.

Goodbye!
Mark

Mark did the law firm make you redundant that you decided to come back on here?

 

[BotanyBay]

Yeah but i haven't seen you mention Lance's family, former wife, his children...
What i thought was particularly classy was your mention of Floyd's father in law. What could you possibly know about that situation? How weak does your argument have to be that you feel these people are fair game?
You mention a few pages back that you are a fair person, something along those lines anyway...yet you come out with this VILE stuff that nobody should come out with on here. I mean do you have any respect whatsoever.

You have an opinion that no one will ever change. No one. But why you feel the need to add this vile nonsense, that you have no knowledge of, is disgusting.

Sorry, but I was recently criticized for taking notice of Lance being emotionally cruel to his supportive daughter at the finish of a Galveston triathlon. Why didn't you hop on the hate-wagon then?

Oh, sorry, I was criticizing Lance Armstrong that day, so it was OK with you.

You are a fair-weather critic.

 

[Digger]

Sorry, but I was recently criticized for taking notice of Lance being emotionally cruel to his supportive daughter at the finish of a Galveston triathlon. Why didn;t you hop on the bandwagon then?

Oh, sorry, I was criticizing Lance Armstrong that day, so it was OK with you.

You are a fair-weather critic.

You think it's ok to mention Floyd's father in law, his former wife, his daughter.
Listen man you hate the guy that's ok. But stop being so vile. I feel sorry for you that your moral compass is this off the wall.
You need to stop making assumptions about people who aren't even alive.

 

[thehog]

Also, thanks for revealing that your hatred of me (and what I have said) .

You misread me. What I do hate is not you but vile purile behavior. Like the continuted refereces to suside and divorce. You find it funny, you poke fun at it. Thats vile and thats what I don't like.

That's fine. If it makes you feel good go for it. This is the internet. No one knows who you are. There is no retribution. Go for gold.

My thinking is you need help. I hope you never have to experience either regardless of the circumstances. I also think you’re hiding something. I don’t know what but there’s something about you that you’re not telling anyone.

But carry on I’m sure you’re enjoying the mocking and the reactions you’re getting. I’m sure in advertising (errr not in advertising) they teach you that any publicity is good publicity. You’re certainly getting it at the moment!

So give us some more. Tell us how bad Floyd is. Go for it. Here's your moment.

 

[BotanyBay]

You think it's ok to mention Floyd's father in law, his former wife, his daughter.
Listen man you hate the guy that's ok. But stop being so vile. I feel sorry for you that your moral compass is this off the wall.
You need to stop making assumptions about people who aren't even alive.

Brutha wrote a BOOK mentioning their names. How about an apology for bringing their names into this in the first place? And whom might we see about that apology?

 

[BotanyBay]

You misread me. What I do hate is not you but vile purile behavior. Like the continuted refereces to suside and divorce. You find it funny, you poke fun at it. Thats vile and thats what I don't like.

If you think that I think suicide and divorce is funny, then you are the defective human being here.

Don't confuse my willingness to MENTION them as some kind of comedic reference.

 

[thehog]

If you think that I think suicide and divorce is funny, then you are the defective human being here.

Don't confuse my willingness to MENTION them as some kind of comedic reference.

I think it’s too late for that.

Shall we go back over your earlier posts to see how you would "drop" the references into your brand of internet humor?

Didn't think so.

You've already clearly established the type of person you are.

For the record; I don't hate you but what you write I find offensive. I’ve seen some posts in my time but nothing to the level that you’ve written.

Simply its vile. I cannot imagine why someone would write such hate on the Internet.

 

[Digger]

Brutha wrote a BOOK mentioning their names. How about an apology for bringing their names into this in the first place? And whom might we see about that apology?

You feel as qualified to mention their names as Floyd!! How sick in the head are you that you feel justified in mentioning his father in law's death, just to further your argument. You know nothing of their circumstances, yet keep making these judgements. It's sick. Look man I worry about this forum if this is the kind of vile behaviour which is being condoned. Making fun of someone's death like that. Making fun of his former wife and their daughter. Yeah well done you. you win. Congrats.

 

[MarkvW]

You feel as qualified to mention their names as Floyd!! How sick in the head are you that you feel justified in mentioning his father in law's death, just to further your argument. You know nothing of their circumstances, yet keep making these judgements. It's sick. Look man I worry about this forum if this is the kind of vile behaviour which is being condoned. Making fun of someone's death like that. Making fun of his former wife and their daughter. Yeah well done you. you win. Congrats.

You are losing it. You call another poster "sick in the head," just so you can advance your argument. He never made fun of someone's death. You are making stuff up AGAIN. Why not stop the personal attacks?

 

[BotanyBay]

I think it’s too late for that.

Shall we go back over your earlier posts to see how you would "drop" the references into your brand of internet humor?

Didn't think so.

You've already clearly established the type of person you are.

For the record; I don't hate you but what you write I find offensive. I’ve seen some posts in my time but nothing to the level that you’ve written.

Simply its vile. I cannot imagine why someone would write such hate on the Internet.

Gee Hog, why'd you wait so long to tell me how you feel?

 

[thehog]

Gee Hog, why'd you wait so long to tell me how you feel?

Don’t worry about how I feel.

I’d be more concerned with your continued lake of empathy and obvious enjoyment of making fun death and divorce.

I’d also wouldn’t be too concerned with Mr. Landis’s behavior when your own has been nothing short of vile.

Have a good day Sir.

 

[Digger]

You are losing it. You call another poster "sick in the head," just so you can advance your argument. He never made fun of someone's death. You are making stuff up AGAIN. Why not stop the personal attacks?

The Lance Armstrong investigation brought me to this forum and now it is over.

My time here has enabled me to learn a lot about a very small subculture of people who gather to spend a lot of their time and energy discussing all the negative aspects of Lance Armstrong. I've spent a lot of time (way too much) with you all. Thank you all very much for sharing with me.

I'm going to try to put Lance Armstrong way in the back of some mental closet, forever I hope. Any publicity is good for him, and I don't think I want to contribute any more.

For those of you that remain, I sincerely hope that something useful comes out of your time spent participating here.

Goodbye!
Mark

Somewhat ironic when other people in here are using the death of a member of family in theor PERSONAL ATTACK.
Talking of personal attacks, how many times have you slaughtered Landis' character?

 

[Digger]

Don’t worry about how I feel.

I’d be more concerned with your continued lake of empathy and obvious enjoyment of making fun death and divorce.

I’d also wouldn’t be too concerned with Mr. Landis’s behavior when your own has been nothing short of vile.

Have a good day Sir.

What I don't get is how Botany can't see how messed up his views are. Does he not realise how serious death and divorce are, in a broader sense?
I would never dream of using those vile topics, which are both personal and sensitive, in order to make a silly point on the internet.
Using Floyd's father in law really was the lowest of the low.

 

[MarkvW]

What I don't get is how Botany can't see how messed up his views are. Does he not realise how serious death and divorce are, in a broader sense?
I would never dream of using those vile topics, which are both personal and sensitive, in order to make a silly point on the internet.
Using Floyd's father in law really was the lowest of the low.

Read the Bonnie Ford article again. Floyd said that his 'father in law' wouldn't be dead except for the whole doping/lying thing. You are defending Floyd on points where Floyd isn't even defending himself!

You are arguing that death and divorce are vile topics--but defrauding people of hundreds of thousands of dollars is also a vile topic, no? And when divorce and death are the aftermath of fraud ... should that be ignored? Floyd went down an awful road when he started cheating and lying and taking money under false pretenses. He's no brave hero. He's no monster. Nobody here hates him (although he is a jerk).

Floyd has a debt to pay, that's all.

 

[Benotti69]

babble

Floyd has a debt to pay, that's all.

In the great scheme of cycling, Floyd's debt is small.

As far as Floyd's father in laws reaction and subsequent suicide to Floyd's doping, that is not a cross for Floyd to carry.

Wait till the mass suicide's from all those yella band wearers start.