For the "pedaling technique doesn't matter crowd"

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Sep 23, 2010
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I am about ready with my analysis (I am missing one piece plus it is very complicated and it is going to be difficult to put in one post) but before I do this I have been supplied with a video that illustrates the capability of the software that will come with this product. This has been in operation for over a year on an exercise bike equipped with a two SRM power meter system, to measure both left and right power independently. Of course, that won't work for a bike (plus it would be very costly) so they are adapting to put the strain gauges in the crank arms and adapting the software to talk to this system but we expect everything to work somewhat similarly. This does give you the ability to see what the potential is. Go out for a ride then come back, download the data and then be able to analyze like this. Here is the link:
http://tinypic.com/r/29yqxid/6
 
Frank,

Was the data in the video snapshot collected with the dual SRM set up? Does the dashed circle represent represent "zero" propulsive torque, inside of it negative and outside positive?

Thanks,

Hugh
 
Sep 23, 2010
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sciguy said:
Frank,

Was the data in the video snapshot collected with the dual SRM set up? Does the dashed circle represent represent "zero" propulsive torque, inside of it negative and outside positive?

Thanks,

Hugh
Yes, that is my understanding. Also, it appeared when the torque was negative the line turned red, when positive, green. I presume the little discontinuities that are seen are artifacts that come about as the rider changes cadence so the system doesn't know exactly how the crank arm is oriented.

Their current screen is somewhat different. I asked them for something that would demonstrate the capability of their system and they pull this out of the archives for me.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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FrankDay said:
Yes, that is my understanding. Also, it appeared when the torque was negative the line turned red, when positive, green. I presume the little discontinuities that are seen are artifacts that come about as the rider changes cadence so the system doesn't know exactly how the crank arm is oriented.

Their current screen is somewhat different. I asked them for something that would demonstrate the capability of their system and they pull this out of the archives for me.



This is like the Wattbike polar view. But how is this going to reveal the source of Powercranks 40 % power increase. Thie sinusoidal graph gives a better demonstration of power input. You say you already know where this extra power is coming from, if this is true, explain where and how it is generated, there is no need for a powermeter.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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coapman said:
This is like the Wattbike polar view.
No it isn't. Wattbike, like Computrainer spinscan combine the two cranks together in one graph and then shows what the total torque looks like when each crank is on the downstroke. When this is done one doesn't have a clue what is going on between TDC and BDC on the backside and barely has a clue what is going on on the front side. It is not possible to separate the top from the bottom or the front from the back on such a graph. It is data, but pretty much useless data in my opinion.
 
Sep 10, 2012
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FrankDay said:
My 40% claim looks like chump change to what my analysis is saying is possible. I now understand where the 40% is coming from and, I understand what is really possible to those who want to work for it.

Mr Gibson is running a new study on PC's. Have you let him know about all of this.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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honesty said:
Mr Gibson is running a new study on PC's. Have you let him know about all of this.
I expect Gibson's study to prove my analysis. Only question in my mind is how large the improvements will be in 6 months. I can hardly wait.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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FrankDay said:
I expect Gibson's study to prove my analysis. Only question in my mind is how large the improvements will be in 6 months. I can hardly wait.


What if there is no improvement, will that be the final curtain on POWERCRANKS.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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My promised pedaling technique analysis. I will break this post into two posts as the forum has a limit of 4 images per post and my analysis includes 6 images.

There are two different ways most cyclists currently know how to increase power: 1) push harder, and 2) pedal faster. Both of these methods are effective. Rarely does the cyclist think about improving technique, probably because there is no easy way to measure technique and it has never been shown that there even is an "optimum" technique. But that is about to change because second generation power meters will soon be available that will completely change how the cyclist looks at power generation.

Here is a rider's actual data from a second generation power meter system that we will analyze. For this analysis I am going to assume that the rider cannot push any harder nor pedal any faster (which is easy as the rider being analyzed is at a cadence of 133 for this shot).

21mtbhz.gif


First, there are two displays, one for the left and one for the right crank. On each display the actual crank torque at each point around the circle is shown in red and the zero torque line is shown in yellow and the average power that torque generated in 30º increments is shown. But, we can’t learn anything useful if we don’t know what we should be looking for or what we should be doing?

In the above graph, the total power for each leg is the sum of these 12 wedge power numbers divided by 12, the average for the circle. The total power for the rider is the sum of the right and left crank This power variation and how it is averaged is easier to “see” when it is expressed in graphical terms.

2q1bh55.gif


What can we see immediately? We can see that the right leg is substantially better than the left leg, having both a higher peak down force and less negative force such that it is averaging 305 watts around the circle while the left is only averaging 266 watts, a 39 watt difference between the legs. Add them together and we find the rider is generating 571 watts, the number he would see on his power meter. The imbalance information, by itself, is important to know as athletes with substantial leg imbalances are more prone to future injury. Working on strengthening the weak leg will not only give this rider more power but will reduce risk of future injury.

Before I move on I want to discuss the “ideal” pedaling stroke.

Most people think that cycling is a simple activity and we all do it pretty much the same way. And, they are right. We push on the downstroke and unweight/relax on the upstroke. Such a pattern ends up giving a force application pattern that resembles a sinusoidal repeating curve and that is what we see above. Since the total power is the average power for the entire stroke, the ideal pedal stroke should be some variation in this sinusoidal pattern that results in the highest average power. We've already made the assumption that this rider has maxed out how hard he can push. What other changes can this rider make to improve his average power? One obvious thing he could do would be to just to eliminate the negative forces from his current pattern.

155jfvs.gif


Just eliminating the negative forces from the pedaling circle, improved the right crank power from 305 to 324 watts and the left crank power from 266 to 296 watts. Making this simple change alone he would improve his power from 571 to 620 watts, a 49 watt improvement. If he could make the weak leg the same as the strong leg he would gain another 28 watts, giving him a total improvement of 77 watts!

Not bad, but can more be done? Remember how I said the curve resembled a sinusoidal curve. Let’s broaden the force pattern to be a true sinusoidal curve, assuming the rider can do this, and see what it might change in the power numbers were he able to change force pattern to resemble this curve, without changing his peak force.

3cwfn.jpg


By broadening the curve, suddenly much more work is being done around much more of the circle and, without pushing one ounce harder, this results in an improvement in power to over 500 watts for each leg or over 1000 watts for the rider. By simply using more of the circle to generate power (and eliminating all the negatives) we could theoretically improve this rider’s power from the 571 watts he was doing to 1002 Watts! This is almost a doubling of power from a simple technique change, again without him pushing any harder. The pedaling form issues limiting the power this rider was seeing were two, he was losing about 50 watts from the negative forces on the pedals during the upstroke. But, more importantly, he was losing almost 400 watts because he was doing essentially no work across the top and decreasing a little too quickly across the bottom. If possibly losing 400 watts by concentrating on the push and ignoring other aspects of the stroke doesn’t get your attention, nothing will.

continued in part two
 
Sep 23, 2010
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Part two


You might be asking now, is it possible for a rider to learn to pedal in this fashion? The answer is, of course, a BIG FAT YES - although it is not easy and takes time and a big commitment. This is pretty much the changes that training with PowerCranks provides the athlete. Below are two graphs illustrating the change in pedaling style seen after 3 months with PowerCranks. Notice the rider has seen a broadening of the power application and the negatives have been eliminated with this period of PowerCranks use. But, what we also learn from this is that this rider has even more potential to untap by further broadening the “power application” part of the stroke and not worrying so much about “pulling up” on the back stroke. Despite these imperfections he has managed to improve the average of his power generation curves from the equivalent of 295.5 watts to 399 watts while the “perfect” sinusoidal pattern still has that 500 watt potential.

24q2ygy.jpg


The next question is: “If we have achieved this, can we do even better?” Of course, I think the answer is yes, or I wouldn’t have brought it up. “How?”, you ask? The answer lies in a close analysis of the curve and what changes would be necessary to increase the average. The rider could try to pull up some on the back stroke but I think that would be a small change. But, is it possible to broaden the top part of the curve and narrow the trough beyond the sinusoidal I have shown? That would do it. This requires putting even more attention in training to what is done at the top and bottom of the stroke beyond the widening we did to just get to the “true” sinusoidal curve. I think this will be relatively easy to do and the serious and dedicated athlete should be able to accomplish this with the correct training focus, the only question being how much is possible? Here is an example of what kind of widening I think potentially possible.

14o7spl.jpg


Widening the peak and narrowing the trough, as shown above, results in improving the power of the “ideal sinusoidal power application” curve for each leg from 501 watts to 560 watts, or another 118 watts for the rider as a whole making the total potential improvement for this rider go from 571 watts to 1120 watts. All this potential from just broadening the pedaling technique by using information gained from a second generation power meter!

Without this information available from second generation power meters it is not possible for a coach or rider to know that such improvement is possible nor is it possible to know where they should focus their training time for maximum benefit. I think it should be clear that this type of power meter provides valuable information currently not available and the only question is how much improvement will the dedicated cyclist be be able to squeeze out of knowing this information in the real world. My guess is it will be a lot because this analysis explains a lot about how users of PowerCranks are seeing the large power increases they frequently report but, from this analysis, I think even they are missing a lot of potential. I think with this information cyclists will be able to do even better than what I had previously come to believe possible.

Is there scientific support for these musings? YES! Look at the very first post in this thread. In 2011, Leirdal, et. al. demonstrated that the only component of the pedaling stroke that correlated to improved pedaling efficiency was the size of the forces across the top and the bottom of the stroke. In addition, Lutrell and Potteiger in 2003, also showed that training with PowerCranks improved pedaling efficiency about 10%. Even though they did not measure pedal forces we do know that one of the results of training with Power Cranks is improved activation over the top and bottom of the stroke and we might infer from the Leirdal results that these results are related.

In conclusion

There are only 3 ways that a cyclist can increase power, pushing harder on the pedals, pushing the pedals faster (while pushing just as hard), and broadening the push to include more of the pedal circle. Whatever method is used the result is the rider must increase the average power put out in one pedal revolution. I would like to propose that the best way of describing one's pedaling technique is to compare this average power to the peak power. I propose a term I would call MAP for maximum average power which I would define as being 2 X ave torque(power)/max torque (power). I multiply it by two so that the true sinusoidal pattern would give a value of 1. The goal of the rider, once they have a second generation power meter should be to attain a MAP score of 1 or above.

People often say, “Knowledge is power.” In this case, it may be literally true.
 
What a vivid imagination you have.

Your model hinges on the assumption that one can not push harder. This is incorrect as riders can always push harder. This comes at a cost of time they can sustain that power.

C- only gets a pass for the illustrations
 
Sep 23, 2010
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CoachFergie said:
Your model hinges on the assumption that one can not push harder. This is incorrect as riders can always push harder.
Fergie, your problem now becomes proving that teaching the rider to push harder is the most effective way of increasing the average power around the entire pedal circle compared to the alternatives. A 10% increase in peak power for just that portion of the circle has a tiny affect on the average power of the circle. My argument is there are better ways for most to achieve this goal and ignoring other aspects of the stroke, especially the top and bottom, costs a lot in lost potential. But it has been hard to understand or to do in the past. The new 2nd gen pm's should change this. We will see. Enjoy

IMHO, there is more to be gained by most by broadening the power application than by working on pushing harder when the power application pattern is narrow.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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CoachFergie said:
If that were true all of the indepedent crank studies would have had different outcomes and you would have far better anecdotal evidence than you currently have.
Fergie, the problem is very few PC studies have actually looked at pedaling forces so we have no idea as to whether the subjects were actually changed. It is impossible to draw any conclusions from any of those negative studies unless you can show they were actually changed. But, you ignore the paper that started this thread. It suggests that "dead spot" forces are the one thing that best correlate with pedaling efficiency. That is in agreement with my thoughts.

That is what is so wonderful about these 2nd generation pm's, this data is soon going to be widespread and easily available. 5 years from now any cycling study that doesn't collect this data as part of their study will probably never get published and if it does it will probably be ignored by most serious observers. Some of these technique and training questions have the potential to actually be answered with some finality. Ignore this stuff at your competitive peril.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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CoachFergie said:
Will happily ignore your advice as I know that cycling isn't about producing more power,it's about sustaining the necessary power for the appropriate duration.
You know I am a neophyte when it comes to this science stuff so I am a little confused. Wasn't it just a few posts ago that you stated "riders can always push harder." Is that how you help your riders to "sustain" better? Pushing harder equals better endurance? Could you explain why? How does that jibe with Leirdal's findings?
 
I'll say any product that turns you from a rabid power meter "hater" into a power meter lover is a good thing;) I will also admit looking forward to see a good bit of real data generated by athletes actually training and racing with these units.

See you in Kona in a few weeks.

Hugh
 
Mar 18, 2009
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CoachFergie said:
What a vivid imagination you have.

Your model hinges on the assumption that one can not push harder. This is incorrect as riders can always push harder. This comes at a cost of time they can sustain that power.

C- only gets a pass for the illustrations

You/re too easy. I'd give it an F, since made-up numbers are made-up numbers no matter how prettily they might be presented. (Not that those graphs are in any way publication-worthy.)
 
Mar 10, 2009
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CoachFergie said:
Will happily ignore your advice as I know that cycling isn't about producing more power,it's about sustaining the necessary power for the appropriate duration.



TT racing is about producing more sustainable power than other riders and there is no better way of doing this than by having the ability to almost double the chain drive power from the natural pedal stroke without increasing peak force on the pedal. This can be easily done but not while using powercranks or standard "rest on" aero bars. It took less than a week to discover this special technique.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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FrankDay said:
Part two


You might be asking now, is it possible for a rider to learn to pedal in this fashion? The answer is, of course, a BIG FAT YES - although it is not easy and takes time and a big commitment.

Can you pedal in this fashion, have you perfected it. Have you used it with aero bars. Why are independent cranks necessary for pedaling in this fashion.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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sciguy said:
I'll say any product that turns you from a rabid power meter "hater" into a power meter lover is a good thing;) I will also admit looking forward to see a good bit of real data generated by athletes actually training and racing with these units.

See you in Kona in a few weeks.

Hugh
I have never been a power meter hater. I have only hated the hypocrisy that surrounds the 1st gen pm's in view of the fact that there is not one shred of scientific evidence that using one in in any fashion in training or racing results in any improved outcome for cyclists.

Now, if a new type of power meter can cause change in the rest of the cycling world (less, perhaps, Fergie) to believe that technique (including what is done on the top, bottom, and back of the stroke) really does matter, now that is real change.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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acoggan said:
You/re too easy. I'd give it an F, since made-up numbers are made-up numbers no matter how prettily they might be presented. (Not that those graphs are in any way publication-worthy.)

LOL. Is the data of Lierdal made up? How do you explain their findings? Math is math, whether the numbers are "made up" or not. This is a theoretical analysis of theoretically possible pedaling changes, forcing "made up" numbers, or was your comprehension clouded by the inability to get past the non-publication worthiness of the graphs? I'll give your analysis of my thoughts an 'F'.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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coapman said:
Can you pedal in this fashion, have you perfected it. Have you used it with aero bars. Why are independent cranks necessary for pedaling in this fashion.
I don't own pedals or cranks that measure these forces so I don't know how well I do this. I think I do it pretty well since I can get my spin scan number up to 95 and a perfectly sinusoidal stroke should give a spin scan of 100. And, I have devised some training techniques to broaden my stroke further. When I get a set of these cranks I will see how well it works. Regarding perfecting the technique, I haven't perfected anything, neither have you since we are humans and we don't have the ability to measure what we are doing, at least yet. Aerobars do not prevent one from pedaling in this fashion as long as the rider is properly fit. And, lastly, independent cranks are not necessary to pedal in this fashion. Independent cranks will only help the rider learn this technique faster, IMO.
 
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