For the "pedaling technique doesn't matter crowd"

[FrankDay]

Frank,

Did you ever sort out the 60/40 power split you were seeing when personally using the cranks? Are you certain to have a set in Kona this October?

Hugh

I believe I did figure it out. I had an interference problem mounting them on the bike I was riding so I had to take a little bit of material off the end so the crank arms would not hit the chain stay on the left side. While I thought it was minimal it was apparently enough to mess up the strain characteristics of the crank making the left appear to have more torque than was actually applied.

I expect to have a set soon but I am not certain of anything until then. I will keep you informed.

 

[FrankDay]

So, it looks like we weren't first to market with a crank based system:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/08/bikes-and-tech/rotor-launches-power-meter-cranks-with-three-new-data-sets_236771

From the article

"Rotor is careful to note that the data isn’t intended to provide a training goal — a perfectly round stroke, or zero backwards torque, for example — but rather simply to provide the information for each rider to parse and utilize."

LOL. That is because Rotor makes it even harder to unweight on the backstroke by increasing pedal speed on the backstroke. Anyhow, this is good news to me because the more of this information that is out there the sooner it will become obvious to the masses (and, even, some coaches) that technique matters and also how difficult it is to change technique without help. Of course, PC's provide that help and when our PM is out we will be the only product that both measures these forces and provides the help to change them.

 

[coapman]

So, it looks like we weren't first to market with a crank based system:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/08/bikes-and-tech/rotor-launches-power-meter-cranks-with-three-new-data-sets_236771

From the article LOL. That is because Rotor makes it even harder to unweight on the backstroke by increasing pedal speed on the backstroke. Anyhow, this is good news to me because the more of this information that is out there the sooner it will become obvious to the masses (and, even, some coaches) that technique matters and also how difficult it is to change technique without help. Of course, PC's provide that help and when our PM is out we will be the only product that both measures these forces and provides the help to change them.

I always believed the objective of all these irregular chainrings was to speed up the pedals when in the 12/6 dead spot sectors and slow them down in the 3/9 sectors while maximal torque was being applied. How exactly will this new PM or your PM make it obvious that technique matters. Coyle's research has already made this obvious by proving mashing was more effective than circular pedaling..

 

[FrankDay]

I always believed the objective of all these irregular chainrings was to speed up the pedals when in the 12/6 dead spot sectors and slow them down in the 3/9 sectors while maximal torque was being applied. How exactly will this new PM or your PM make it obvious that technique matters. Coyle's research has already made this obvious by proving mashing was more effective than circular pedaling..

My recommendation for the person who believes that there is no benefit to any particular pedaling style to not bother getting any of these fancy torque measuring devices because they are not going to change anything for them anyhow and they are going to be pretty expensive. For those who believe there might be something to paying attention to pedaling style, whatever that style is, will probably be interested in these devices. Once they are in common use we will see what we learn, if anything. Stay tuned.…

 

[rickshaw]

Wtf?

425 posts about pedaling technique? Don't need to be a deep thinker to see this is waaaay OT. Round (right leg) and round (left leg). Repeat

 

[CoachFergie]

It's always a source of amusement watching Frank try and support his claims he can make something come from nothing while the real cycling scientists and coaches focus on the real question like how to sustain power for longer.

 

[coapman]

while the real cycling scientists and coaches focus on the real question like how to sustain power for longer.

And over the past few years cycling is reaping the shameful harvest of all this scientific work, while the perfect tt pedaling technique which was demonstratred by Anquetil for over a decade half a century ago has yet to be discovered.

 

[CoachFergie]

Well, the good news is that it lives on in your imagination.

 

[FrankDay]

I do have some race results to report that may go to pedaling technique. Long time PowerCranker 44 yo Doug Clark just reported to me he won the US National triathlon championship for the 5TH YEAR IN A ROW!!! He says he is the youngest athlete to accomplish this feat. Further, today, at 44 he came in 12th at the HY-Vee 5150 elite championship. While 12th may not seem like much, he is 44, racing in the male elite division, and the next oldest person to finish ahead of him was 31. results here (choose 5150 US Championship). Make of it what you want.

 

[CoachFergie]

I do have some race results to report that may go to pedaling technique. Long time PowerCranker 44 yo Doug Clark just reported to me he won the US National triathlon championship for the 5TH YEAR IN A ROW!!! He says he is the youngest athlete to accomplish this feat. Further, today, at 44 he came in 12th at the HY-Vee 5150 elite championship. While 12th may not seem like much, he is 44, racing in the male elite division, and the next oldest person to finish ahead of him was 31. results here (choose 5150 US Championship). Make of it what you want.

Riders I coach took 1-2-3 at the Reiker Cycles Tour of Timaru BikeNZ National Junior Points Series event on the weekend in U19men. That has just as little to do with the topic of pedalling technique as your post.

 

[FrankDay]

Riders I coach took 1-2-3 at the Reiker Cycles Tour of Timaru BikeNZ National Junior Points Series event on the weekend in U19men. That has just as little to do with the topic of pedalling technique as your post.

As I said, make of it what you might. Perhaps, though, you might get back to this thread when those same riders do something similar 5 years in a row (that should keep this thread alive for awhile) or do something similar when they are competing against those who should have superior physical skills.

 

[CoachFergie]

Again a meaningless post. Rider results are a poor form of proof as so many different factors contribute to them.

 

[FrankDay]

Again a meaningless post. Rider results are a poor form of proof as so many different factors contribute to them.

Then why did you post yours as a rebut?

 

[CoachFergie]

As evidence of how meaningless it is to post random results about events and riders while providing very little context.

 

[FrankDay]

As evidence of how meaningless it is to post random results about events and riders while providing very little context.

I would agree that posting RANDOM results is meaningless. However, my post was not random, it was especially chosen to, I hoped, make a possible point. I suspect your results posting was not random also since it included a 1, 2, and 3 finishers, and the chances of that occurring randomly is astronomical. Thanks for participating though.

 

[CoachFergie]

It's random as you can neither prove nor disprove that trying to alter pedalling technique had anything to do with either result. Thanks for playing "Stab in the Dark"!

 

[FrankDay]

So, I have been thinking some more about what might be a "perfect" pedaling technique. A couple of things got me going on this, the main thing being that we will soon be selling a crank that will allow customers to measure technique and what should we tell them? I found it especially interesting that Rotorcrank is now selling a crank system that allows one to measure technique but they have decline to tell anyone that they believe there is any benefit to it. Why they would try to sell a $2000 system without telling customers there is a benefit to the information is silly unless they are simply trying to avoid "controversy" a la me.

Anyhow, I went back and analyzed pedaling patterns that are in the literature and, of course, what I have myself. One thing is clear, everyone tends to pedal the same, i.e., in a smooth reciprocating pattern. Squint your eyes and everyone pedals in a slightly wavy sinusoidal pattern. The only difference between what people on regular cranks do and what PowerCrankers do is how high the curve is above the zero line (how large are the negatives) and how "flat" it is.

Therefore, I think it easy to conclude that the "ideal" pattern is probably a pure sinusoidal pattern and, unless someone can make a real case for the advantage of having negative torque on the upstroke, the pattern should have no periods of negative torque. If one is pedaling in this fashion and one divides the pedal circle into 4 quadrants the distribution of power amongst these quadrants is pretty well fixed. See the below graph.

Now, this graph is just a first try as I don't think this is what is really optimum. I think max power does not occur at 90º pedal angle as the graph show but probably more like 110º and minimum torque does not occur at 270, but more like 300º (when one is transitioning from pulling up to pushing forward) but I think this is a good first step in trying to analyze what is going on. When these products are in wide spread use and see what riders actually do I think this can be revised but it seems, to me, a good first start.

Discuss

 

[CoachFergie]

All moot because you can't run independent cranks in most races and even in time trials where people could choose to run them no one does. They run rotor or osymetric rings, use nasal strips and at the Olympics the Brits used a version of their bikes similar to their track bikes rather than the Team Sky Pinarello's.

Probably because there is no evidence that changing power delivery is improved by changing how it is applied around the pedal stroke. Either in the short term through improved biomechanics or in the long term as proven by numerous studies using ICs that failed to show they improved performance after a suitable training period.

 

[FrankDay]

BTW, if everyone pedaled in this pattern, the more powerful riders really would "just push harder".

 

[coapman]

So, I have been thinking some more about what might be a "perfect" pedaling technique. A couple of things got me going on this, the main thing being that we will soon be selling a crank that will allow customers to measure technique and what should we tell them? I found it especially interesting that Rotorcrank is now selling a crank system that allows one to measure technique but they have decline to tell anyone that they believe there is any benefit to it. Why they would try to sell a $2000 system without telling customers there is a benefit to the information is silly unless they are simply trying to avoid "controversy" a la me.

Anyhow, I went back and analyzed pedaling patterns that are in the literature and, of course, what I have myself. One thing is clear, everyone tends to pedal the same, i.e., in a smooth reciprocating pattern. Squint your eyes and everyone pedals in a slightly wavy sinusoidal pattern. The only difference between what people on regular cranks do and what PowerCrankers do is how high the curve is above the zero line (how large are the negatives) and how "flat" it is.

Therefore, I think it easy to conclude that the "ideal" pattern is probably a pure sinusoidal pattern and, unless someone can make a real case for the advantage of having negative torque on the upstroke, the pattern should have no periods of negative torque. If one is pedaling in this fashion and one divides the pedal circle into 4 quadrants the distribution of power amongst these quadrants is pretty well fixed. See the below graph.

Now, this graph is just a first try as I don't think this is what is really optimum. I think max power does not occur at 90º pedal angle as the graph show but probably more like 110º and minimum torque does not occur at 270, but more like 300º (when one is transitioning from pulling up to pushing forward) but I think this is a good first step in trying to analyze what is going on. When these products are in wide spread use and see what riders actually do I think this can be revised but it seems, to me, a good first start.

Discuss

Post this over at the BikeRadar forum and they will discuss ?

 

[CoachFergie]

Post this over at the BikeRadar forum and they will discuss ?

They're not buying your nonsense there either Noel.

 

[coapman]

They're not buying your nonsense there either Noel.

Wait and see what happens when the first non sinusoidal pedaling pattern appears on a BrimBros powermeter graph.

 

[CoachFergie]

Yup like force vectors while pedalling have never been studied before

 

[coapman]

Yup like force vectors while pedalling have never been studied before

Yes they have been studied but that is as far as it went, which explains why even today there is no difference between commuters and time triallers pedaling techniques.

 

[CoachFergie]

They must not have such a vivid imagination as you Noel.