For the "pedaling technique doesn't matter crowd"

[coapman]

Why don't you wait to see what it shows. Or, as an alternative, make your predictions now.

I predict any torque advantage gained by pulling up or/and applying force across the top and bottom will be outweighed by loss of torque in the downstroke. Unweighting increases downstroke torque, pulling up reduces it.

 

[coapman]

If one keeps the power and the cadence the same the amount one pushes less on the down stroke will exactly balance the amount they pull up more because the math dictates it to be so.

Even if this is how you believe it works, expensive Powercranks are supposed to increase power output, not keep it the same.

 

[coapman]

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I think the question of 'minimal torgue' of the pull-up is the BIG unknown about PCs.
Since doing the pull-up uses different (additional) muscles, the question is whether those muscles can be trained and developed to produce worthwhile extra torque.
Typically, using more muscles to produce power results in increased total power.
But, from a physiology viewpoint, a concern is how efficient are the pull-up muscles? If they are inefficient then the fuel (Calories) they burn will lessen the amount of fuel for the push-down muscles, and provide less total power output over a long period when available fuel become low.

If Frank has difficulty with the simple task of unweighting which involves nothing more than folding and raising the leg ahead of the rising pedal, the 'minimal torque' of PC pulling up cannot be a BIG unknown. Can pull-up muscles be trained and developed to produce worthwhile extra torque?, having trained exclusively for many years with PC's, Frank should by now be able to answer this question as to how much more torque they can produce compared to before he started his PC use. When pedaling at steady constant power output in a non climbing TT, before more muscles can be used to increase power output, certain conditions have to be met. If these are additional lower body muscles, the torque they can produce must be equal to or greater than the maximal torque that can be applied around the 3 o'c mark and this torque must be applied in the same 180 degrees as where maximal torque is already being applied. Apart from the physiological or inefficiency aspect, the main disadvantage with using pull-up muscles is they divert 50 % of the brain's concentration from its task of applying maximal torque with the other leg around 3 o'c.

 

[JayKosta]

...
When pedaling at steady constant power output in a non climbing TT, before more muscles can be used to increase power output, certain conditions have to be met. If these are additional lower body muscles, the torque they can produce must be equal to or greater than the maximal torque that can be applied around the 3 o'c mark and this torque must be applied in the same 180 degrees as where maximal torque is already being applied. Apart from the physiological or inefficiency aspect, the main disadvantage with using pull-up muscles is they divert 50 % of the brain's concentration from its task of applying maximal torque with the other leg around 3 o'c.

============================================
I think you are incorrect in saying that additional pull-up muscles MUST apply >= torque than the push-down muscles; the additional torque from pull-up muscles is simply an addition to the 'unweighting' that you describe.
As for the mental aspect of doing both the push-down and pull-up in optimum amounts, that too is just an extension of doing unweighting in the best way.

I certainly do not know what 'pedaling technique' is best - and I doubt that a single technique is best for everyone.
But for each person, I'm sure there are 'poor techniques' - and by extension there probably is some technique that is 'best' for that person.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[FrankDay]

If Frank has difficulty with the simple task of unweighting which involves nothing more than folding and raising the leg ahead of the rising pedal, the 'minimal torque' of PC pulling up cannot be a BIG unknown.

While "unweighting" is a simple task in and of itself it starts to become something a lot less simple to do when one tries to do it 5000 times an hour or so.

Can pull-up muscles be trained and developed to produce worthwhile extra torque?, having trained exclusively for many years with PC's, Frank should by now be able to answer this question as to how much more torque they can produce compared to before he started his PC use.

one cannot answer the question as to how much extra torque one can produce unless one can measure that torque. Such an ability is not available to most people including me. Now, one can infer how much extra torque is provided by looking at how much power is increased at a similar cadence (if power goes up 10% torque should increase 10%), but this is only an average torque per pedal revolution and says nothing about what is going on at any particular part of the stroke.

Apart from the physiological or inefficiency aspect, the main disadvantage with using pull-up muscles is they divert 50 % of the brain's concentration from its task of applying maximal torque with the other leg around 3 o'c.

Most people don't do much concentrating on their pedaling when riding a bike just as they don't think about what their feet are doing when running or walking - instead they concentrate on where they are going, tactics, etc. Once learned walking, running or pedaling become automatic spinal reflex motions with minimal conscious involvement. The difficulty becomes in changing how one does this activity once "learned" and automatic.

 

[coapman]

While "unweighting" is a simple task in and of itself it starts to become something a lot less simple to do when one tries to do it 5000 times an hour or so.

Not when it offers an advantage on every pedal stroke you apply.

one cannot answer the question as to how much extra torque one can produce unless one can measure that torque. Such an ability is not available to most people including me.

You were able to supply that comparison of torque between regular and PC crank pedaling.

Most people don't do much concentrating on their pedaling when riding a bike just as they don't think about what their feet are doing when running or walking.

For the ideal perfectly symmetrical TT pedaling technique total concentration is vital.

 

[FrankDay]

You were able to supply that comparison of torque between regular and PC crank pedaling.

Yes, for that one person who had access to a pressure plate pedal system and sent us the data on the one trial he did on himself. While that graph represents the kinds of changes we might expect as one learned to pedal in this fashion it certainly does not measure the "end product" in this person nor does it look at the difference at race effort before and after nor would we necessarily expect every person to end up exactly the same as he would, if he measured that. So, until that data becomes available, your question is unanswerable. The study I linked to that revived this thread is going to make an attempt to answer that for you. Stand by.

 

[coapman]

Yes, for that one person who had access to a pressure plate pedal system and sent us the data on the one trial he did on himself. While that graph represents the kinds of changes we might expect as one learned to pedal in this fashion it certainly does not measure the "end product" in this person nor does it look at the difference at race effort before and after nor would we necessarily expect every person to end up exactly the same as he would, if he measured that. So, until that data becomes available, your question is unanswerable. The study I linked to that revived this thread is going to make an attempt to answer that for you. Stand by.

Stand by for what, this study will be more of the same old efficiency nonsense. With accurate graphs of pedaling torque (at max power output) around the entire circle at 4 week intervals, Brimbros new force/vector PM should be able to supply the answer to this claim of a possible 40% power increase after 6 months of PC training. After 6 months you believe this extra torque will be generated across the top, bottom and by pulling up ?

 

[FrankDay]

After 6 months you believe this extra torque will be generated across the top, bottom and by pulling up ?

It will come small improvements from 135º to 045º (the entire circle) and they probably won't be pushing any harder from 45º to 135º or so I predict. It doesn't take huge improvements when it is distributed around 75% of the circle to see an overall 40% improvement.

 

[coapman]

It will come small improvements from 135º to 045º (the entire circle) and they probably won't be pushing any harder from 45º to 135º or so I predict. It doesn't take huge improvements when it is distributed around 75% of the circle to see an overall 40% improvement.

At a cadence of 90 rpm how do all these muscles get time to change direction of the maximal force they are applying 12 times per second.

 

[FrankDay]

At a cadence of 90 rpm how do all these muscles get time to change direction of the maximal force they are applying 12 times per second.

Muscles don't "change direction" as all they do is contract or relax. Muscles have little problem doing this 90 times a minute. They seem to manage just fine when cycling on regular cranks or running. It is the magnitude and timing of the various muscle contractions that contribute to the magnitude and direction of the final force on the pedal. All the PC's do is slightly change the timing or magnitude of these contractions. It really isn't that big a deal to the nervous system but can result in big differences in outcome as seen in the graph.

Yesterday I got a call from a rider who is pretty good (has come in 2nd in some local hill climb races) who ordered some PC's. His reason, he had been watching Drew Peterson improve over time (Drew has ridden the PC's exclusively for about 3 years) but that day he was climbing this hill, out of the saddle, as hard as he could go, when Drew rode past him like he was standing still while still in the saddle and in the aero position. I can hardly wait to get Drew on some cranks or pedals that can actually measure his forces so we can see how he has changed over this 3 year period compared to what is expected from non-PC trained riders.

 

[coapman]

Muscles don't "change direction" as all they do is contract or relax. Muscles have little problem doing this 90 times a minute. They seem to manage just fine when cycling on regular cranks or running. It is the magnitude and timing of the various muscle contractions that contribute to the magnitude and direction of the final force on the pedal. All the PC's do is slightly change the timing or magnitude of these contractions. It really isn't that big a deal to the nervous system but can result in big differences in outcome as seen in the graph.

What I saw in the graph was almost insignificant torque. Muscles change the direction in which the force is being applied when the brain sends the signal to change. If effective torque is to be generated around the circle, they will have to apply an upward pedal force, a forward force, a downward force and a backward force and this has to happen 12 times per second or 720 times per min. All you will get is minimal torque around the circle and a weakened downstroke. What will you tell your customers when eventually these new powermeters confirm that PC pedaling is not as effective as mashing.

 

[FrankDay]

…and this has to happen 12 times per second or 720 times per min. …

What on earth are you talking about?

 

[coapman]

What on earth are you talking about?

The stupidity of attempting to apply effective crank torque around the entire pedaling circle at a cadence of 90 rpm.

 

[FrankDay]

What on earth are you talking about?

The stupidity of attempting to apply effective crank torque around the entire pedaling circle at a cadence of 90 rpm.

No, what has to happen 12 times a second?

 

[coapman]

No, what has to happen 12 times a second?

Changes of direction in which the force has to be directed at the pedals by both legs if it is to produce effective crank torque. These different forces are described by some as scraping something off your shoe arouind the 180 deg. mark, pulling up around 270 deg. , rolling your foot over a barrel at 360 deg and pushing down at 90 deg.

 

[FrankDay]

Changes of direction in which the force has to be directed at the pedals by both legs if it is to produce effective crank torque. These different forces are described by some as scraping something off your shoe arouind the 180 deg. mark, pulling up around 270 deg. , rolling your foot over a barrel at 360 deg and pushing down at 90 deg.

I see. so what has to be done 12 times a second? I mean, since the direction of the pedal is constantly changing, why not 50 times a second, or 1000, or 10,000? Why 12? And, why would 6, or 3 or 1 time a second be any better? Do you have any idea what you are really talking about? It is not necessary to be perfect in this regards to be better than we do now. Better should be good enough.

 

[coapman]

It is not necessary to be perfect in this regards to be better than we do now. Better should be good enough.

It is for me, perfection is the only way. By ignoring the 180 deg. and 270 deg. sectors and concentrating all power application to the pedals between 330 deg and 150 deg, (11 to 5 o'c), it's possible to apply maximal torque from 12 to 4 o'c in one smooth powerful stroke.

 

[FrankDay]

It is for me, perfection is the only way. By ignoring the 180 deg. and 270 deg. sectors and concentrating all power application to the pedals between 330 deg and 150 deg, (11 to 5 o'c), it's possible to apply maximal torque from 12 to 4 o'c in one smooth powerful stroke.

Cool. Prove it!

Oh, and what do you do during the other 2/3 of the stroke? What if it were possible to do what you are doing from 12 to 4 while also doing something positive the other 2/3 of the stroke?

 

[coapman]

Cool. Prove it!

Oh, and what do you do during the other 2/3 of the stroke? What if it were possible to do what you are doing from 12 to 4 while also doing something positive the other 2/3 of the stroke?

I'm hoping Brimbros PM when available will supply the proof. In addition to that work done between 12 and 4 o'c, significant torque is also applied by each leg between 11-12 and 4-5 o'c, leaving the remaining 180 degrees of the pedaling circle for these muscles to recover and prepare for their next powerful pedal stroke without obstructing the rising pedal. As with circular or PC pedaling, attempting to apply extra torque with the idling leg would result in a weaker main power stroke and an overall loss of crank torque. The question to be answered is, which adds up to most torque, both legs working around the entire circle with muscles that not capable of generating maximal force or concentrating on half the circle with muscles that can generate maximal force through the entire 180 degrees.

 

[JayKosta]

I'm hoping Brimbros PM when available will supply the proof. In addition to that work done between 12 and 4 o'c, significant torque is also applied by each leg between 11-12 and 4-5 o'c, leaving the remaining 180 degrees of the pedaling circle for these muscles to recover and prepare for their next powerful pedal stroke without obstructing the rising pedal. As with circular or PC pedaling, attempting to apply extra torque with the idling leg would result in a weaker main power stroke and an overall loss of crank torque. The question to be answered is, which adds up to most torque, both legs working around the entire circle with muscles that not capable of generating maximal force or concentrating on half the circle with muscles that can generate maximal force through the entire 180 degrees.

=======================
YES! this is your 'BIG unknown' (it seems similar to mine at
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=994714&postcount=396 )

For 'endurance bike riding & racing', producing maximum torque is not often needed - typically only for all-out sprints & extreme climbs.
What is needed is high sustainable torque that can be produced in the most efficient manner (lowest Calories needed), and with the lowest longterm muscle fatigue.

Hopefully the new study that was mentioned will provide some answers.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[FrankDay]

I'm hoping Brimbros PM when available will supply the proof. In addition to that work done between 12 and 4 o'c, significant torque is also applied by each leg between 11-12 and 4-5 o'c, leaving the remaining 180 degrees of the pedaling circle for these muscles to recover and prepare for their next powerful pedal stroke without obstructing the rising pedal. As with circular or PC pedaling, attempting to apply extra torque with the idling leg would result in a weaker main power stroke and an overall loss of crank torque. The question to be answered is, which adds up to most torque, both legs working around the entire circle with muscles that not capable of generating maximal force or concentrating on half the circle with muscles that can generate maximal force through the entire 180 degrees.

Perhaps, if they ever make it to the market. If not, our PM should be on the market in a few months and it could tell you what you are doing also. I am told that I will have a working copy of the software to analyze the data I already have from the prototype cranks I had. When I get that I will be able to post some data as to what I actually do both at power and when cruising. While such data doesn't prove anything other than what I am doing right now it will probably be more useful to this discussion than the chart I provided before.

 

[FrankDay]

Just got a phone call from a long-time customer. He reported that last week he won his age-group at USA Triathlon nationals for the 5th year in a row. We got to talking and I told him I would put him on my list to lend our powered cranks to him for a couple of weeks so we can get some data on how he pedals. His data will be much more interesting I think than mine as I am old and not really competing. I can hardly wait to see this stuff.

 

[coapman]

Just got a phone call from a long-time customer. He reported that last week he won his age-group at USA Triathlon nationals for the 5th year in a row. We got to talking and I told him I would put him on my list to lend our powered cranks to him for a couple of weeks so we can get some data on how he pedals. His data will be much more interesting I think than mine as I am old and not really competing. I can hardly wait to see this stuff.

What are you expecting or hoping to see. I would think PC pedaling is PC pedaling regardless of the fitness of the person using the technique. Have you tried these powered cranks and if so, were you satisfied with what you saw. What exactly do these powered cranks measure, is it torque at every 30 degrees around the pedaling circle.

 

[sciguy]

What are you expecting or hoping to see. I would think PC pedaling is PC pedaling regardless of the fitness of the person using the technique. Have you tried these powered cranks and if so, were you satisfied with what you saw. What exactly do these powered cranks measure, is it torque at every 30 degrees around the pedaling circle.

Frank,

Did you ever sort out the 60/40 power split you were seeing when personally using the cranks? Are you certain to have a set in Kona this October?

Hugh