For the "pedaling technique doesn't matter crowd"

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Sep 23, 2010
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acoggan said:
Patently untrue. In fact, the very 1st study reporting that cycling efficiency improves with training was published in the 1930s.
Let me revise my statement. No one has ever shown that pedaling efficiency improves with more training in well-trained cyclists. Especially that could explain the improvement in efficiency demonstrated in Lance Armstrong over time.

Let me revise my answer now that I found the original statement
Oh, and Coyle's explanation for his Lance findings were also hogwash. No one has ever demonstrated that pedaling efficiency improves with more training, especially at the World Champion level. No one has ever demonstrated that PED's improve cycling efficiency. There has to be another explanation for the approximate 10% improvement in efficiency demonstrated by Coyle over time in Lance. Anyhow, back to the study at hand.
The statement was directed at explaining the Lance Armstrong efficiency improvements. Your response, while technically true, is out of context. If you know of any evidence that has shown that elite riders can improve efficiency by simply training more let's see it. Otherwise, I stand by the intent of my original statement.

I accept that untained or poorly trained riders can increase cycling efficiency as they convert fast-twitch muscles into slow twitch muscles. But, once that conversion is pretty much complete, further improvement has not been shown, AFAIK.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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CoachFergie said:
Do you not watch Oprah? Think we might have solved that case.
PED's improve power and endurance because they improve oxygen delivery. They have never been shown to improve cycling efficiency. Try again.
 
FrankDay said:
PED's improve power and endurance because they improve oxygen delivery. They have never been shown to improve cycling efficiency. Try again.

Intermittent Hypoxia Improves Endurance Performance
and Submaximal Exercise Efficiency

ABSTRACT
Katayama, Keisho, Hiroshi Matsuo, Koji Ishida, Shigeo Mori, and Miharu Miyamura. Intermittent hypoxia improves endurance performance and submaximal exercise efficiency. High Alt Med Biol 4:291–304, 2003.—The purpose of the present study was to elucidate the influence of intermittent hypobaric hypoxia at rest on endurance performance and cardiorespiratory and hematological adaptations in trained endurance athletes. Twelve trained male endurance runners were assigned to either a hypoxic group (n 5 6) or a control group (n 5 6). The subjects in the hypoxic group were exposed to a simulated altitude of 4500 m for 90 min, three times a week for 3 weeks. The measurements of 3000 m running time, running time to exhaustion, and cardiorespiratory parameters during maximal exercise test and resting hematological status were performed before (Pre) and after 3 weeks of intermittent hypoxic exposure (Post). These measurements were repeated after the cessation of intermittent hypoxia for 3 weeks (Re). In the control group, the same parameters were determined at Pre, Post, and Re for the subjects not exposed to intermittent hypoxia. The athletes in both groups continued their normal training together at sea level throughout the experiment. In the hypoxic group, the 3000 m running time and running time to exhaustion during maximal exercise test improved. Neither cardiorespiratory parameters to maximal exercise nor resting hematological parameters were changed in either group at Post, whereas oxygen uptake (VO2) during submaximal exercise decreased significantly in the hypoxic group. After cessation of intermittent hypoxia for 3 weeks, the improved 3000 m running time and running time to exhaustion tended to decline, and the decreased VO2 during submaximal exercise returned to Pre level. These results suggest that intermittent hypoxia at rest could improve endurance performance and submaximal exercise efficiency at sea level in trained endurance athletes, but these improvements are not maintained after the cessation of intermittent hypoxia for 3 weeks.

Live high: train low increases muscle buffer capacity and submaximal cycling efficiency
CJ Gore, AG Hahn, RJ Aughey… - Acta physiologica …, 2008 - Wiley Online Library

This study investigated whether hypoxic exposure increased muscle buffer capacity (βm) and mechanical efficiency during exercise in male athletes. A control (CON, n=7) and a live high:train low group (LHTL, n=6) trained at near sea level (600 m), with the LHTL group sleeping for 23 nights in simulated moderate altitude (3000 m). Whole body oxygen consumption (V˙o2) was measured under normoxia before, during and after 23 nights of sleeping in hypoxia, during cycle ergometry comprising 4×4-min submaximal stages, 2-min at 5.6 ± 0.4 W kg–1, and 2-min ‘all-out’ to determine total work and V˙o2peak. A vastus lateralis muscle biopsy was taken at rest and after a standardized 2-min 5.6 ± 0.4 W kg–1 bout, before and after LHTL, and analysed for βm and metabolites. After LHTL, βm was increased (18%, P < 0.05). Although work was maintained, V˙o2peak fell after LHTL (7%, P < 0.05). Submaximal V˙o2 was reduced (4.4%, P < 0.05) and efficiency improved (0.8%, P < 0.05) after LHTL probably because of a shift in fuel utilization. This is the first study to show that hypoxic exposure, per se, increases muscle buffer capacity. Further, reduced V˙o2 during normoxic exercise after LHTL suggests that improved exercise efficiency is a fundamental adaptation to LHTL.

Altitude training for improved performance at sea level remains highly contentious (Rusko 1996, Saltin 1996, Wolski et al. 1996). In part, this may be a consequence of any performance change being small and variable between individuals (Rusko 1996). Recently an alternative approach to enhance athletic performance has been mooted, where athletes live at moderate altitude and train near sea level. This method of using hypobaric hypoxia improved the sea-level 5000 or 3000 m run time in both college (Levine & Stray-Gundersen 1997) and elite level runners (Stray-Gundersen et al. 2001), but enhanced performance is a relatively rare outcome among those studies of altitude training that have used a control (CON) group. Because many countries lack suitable geography, the so-called ‘live high:train low’ (LHTL) approach (Levine & Stray-Gundersen 1997) has been further refined to include living at simulated altitude under normobaric conditions (Rusko 1996).

Regardless of whether LHTL or natural altitude sojourns are used by athletes there is some evidence to challenge the traditional paradigm that the key adaptation for any performance benefit is increased red cell mass (Mairbäurl 1994) and the concomitant increase in maximal aerobic power (V˙o2max) that has otherwise been associated with polycythaemia (Buick et al. 1980). Two studies have reported that training at altitude (˜2000–2700 m) induced a 5–6% increase in skeletal muscle in-vitro buffer capacity (βm) (Mizuno et al. 1990, Saltin et al. 1995a). Furthermore, a carefully conducted study has recently reported a significant (5%) improvement in the net mechanical efficiency of submaximal cycling subsequent to a 21-day mountain ascent (6194 m) (Green et al. 2000b). The mechanism of increased βm and mechanical efficiency is unclear, but in both cases hypoxia is a likely candidate.

Given the potential importance of anaerobic metabolism (Bulbulian et al. 1986) and efficiency (Snell & Mitchell 1984) to performance, even in highly trained endurance athletes, further investigation of possible anaerobic adaptations to hypoxia is clearly warranted. Based on the reported effect of 2 weeks living and training at natural altitude (Saltin et al. 1995a), we hypothesized that merely sleeping in moderate hypoxia (LHTL) for sufficient duration would improve βm. Secondly, based on the observation of Green et al. (2000b), we hypothesized that LHTL of sufficient duration would improve gross mechanical efficiency during submaximal cycle ergometry conducted in normobaric normoxia.

And many others that would suggest that improving oxygen delivery through using EPO or altitude training improves cycling efficiency.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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CoachFergie said:
Intermittent Hypoxia Improves Endurance Performance
and Submaximal Exercise Efficiency

ABSTRACT
blah blah blah
What does intermittent hypoxia have to do with PED's? Improvements in efficiency due to PED's have never been shown in elite cyclists. In fact, I am not sure that improvements in efficiency due to anything have ever been shown in any elite cyclist before Armstrong, even on an anecdotal basis. Such improvements are rare which is what caused Coyle to remark about this change specifically.
 
FrankDay said:
What does intermittent hypoxia have to do with PED's? Improvements in efficiency due to PED's have never been shown in elite cyclists.

You said PED's (in this case EPO) improve oxygen delivery. And that this doesn't improve cycling efficiency. Two studies among others showing that an improvement in oxygen delivery does increase cycling efficiency.

And you are not going to see a study on EPO with Elite Cyclists because it is a banned practice. But we can look at studies that show with a greater crack down on EPO use in the Pro Peloton that speeds have reduced considerably.
 
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0838.1991.tb00276.x/abstract

After 3 week course of EPO subjects VO2 decreased on a test at 100 watts and increased on a test to exhaustion. Indicating that their efficiency improved (lower oxygen cost at a constant work rate). Not Elite subjects.

Funny that Frank Day demands evidence of EPO improving cycling efficiency but is prepared to settle for untrained subjects in independent crank studies.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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CoachFergie said:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0838.1991.tb00276.x/abstract

After 3 week course of EPO subjects VO2 decreased on a test at 100 watts and increased on a test to exhaustion. Indicating that their efficiency improved (lower oxygen cost at a constant work rate). Not Elite subjects.

Funny that Frank Day demands evidence of EPO improving cycling efficiency but is prepared to settle for untrained subjects in independent crank studies.
Fine. Even though it was a running study in non-elite subjects let's presume you are correct. Now come up with a mechanism for how this change causes an increase in cycling efficiency. How does simply having more blood cells change cycling efficiency? Why has this never been shown before in all the testing done on elite cyclists when, presumably, many of them were on PED's? Armstrong stands alone, what sets him apart?
 
FrankDay said:
Fine. Even though it was a running study in non-elite subjects let's presume you are correct. Now come up with a mechanism for how this change causes an increase in cycling efficiency. How does simply having more blood cells change cycling efficiency? Why has this never been shown before in all the testing done on elite cyclists when, presumably, many of them were on PED's? Armstrong stands alone, what sets him apart?

Greater oxygen delivery to the working muscle allowing the cyclist to use more type I fibres, sparing finite glycogen stores.

http://www.jsc-journal.com/ojs/index.php?journal=JSC&page=article&op=view&path[]=12

For a good review on cycling efficiency. Showing that the biggest improvements come from training, in particular high intensity training. Also comments on biomechanics.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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CoachFergie said:
Greater oxygen delivery to the working muscle allowing the cyclist to use more type I fibres, sparing finite glycogen stores.
Huh? Your kidding right? Can you point to a single credible source that suggests that mechanism might be present below threshold? Exactly how would it work? How do the various muscles know how much hemoglobin is in the blood? And, how do they communicate with each other what these levels are so they can distribute the work differently? What does "sparing finite glycogen stores" have to do with cycling efficiency?
http://www.jsc-journal.com/ojs/index.php?journal=JSC&page=article&op=view&path[]=12

For a good review on cycling efficiency. Showing that the biggest improvements come from training, in particular high intensity training. Also comments on biomechanics.
Yes, you of the "what does efficiency have to do with performance" camp must have loved this:
Efficiency, the ratio of work generated to the total metabolic energy cost, has been suggested to be a key determinant of endurance cycling performance.
 
The Jobson paper does a good job of outlining the varyious mechanisms of how cycling efficiency improves through various means and in the case of strength training points to the lack of a mechanism to why it would increase cycling efficiency.
 
A big question with regards to efficiency is efficient for what?

If testing untrained or poorly trained subjects any form of training is going to lead to an improvement in efficiency. This is why we always have a control group. This is why we aim to use highly trained subjects.

Then type of testing becomes important. If you test a TT rider and Sprinter at the same wattage and at 80rpm it will show the TT rider is more efficient. However test at 120rpm and the Sprinter will be more efficient.

Then when you do get results like Luttrell you repeat the test and you find in Burns, Williams and Sperlich that efficiency did not improve.
 
Regard this quote from Jobson's
'Gross efficiency and cycling performance: a brief review'

"Together, the experimental evidence suggests that the acquisition of new pedalling techniques does not result in significant increases in gross efficiency in the short to medium term. However, more research is needed to thoroughly address long-term adaptations to changes in pedalling technique with respect to cycling efficiency"

The wording is ackward, but I think that 'in the short to medium term' refers to the duration of learning and adapting to the 'new pedalling techniques'. So, it is questionable whether there really was meaningful 'acquisition of new pedalling techniques' and whether the testers' physiology had adapted to the new techniques.

I think it is also worth remembering (if I understand correctly) that with uncoupled cranks it is NOT necessary to apply a particularly large amount of 'positive rotational force' to prevent 'uncoupling' - the 'uncoupling' only occurs if one crank 'falls behind' the other.

This is important because it might be that experienced, well trained, competitive cyclist already apply force in that manner, or can easily adapt to it without having to change their technique or force-application by any significant amount.

My guess is that uncoupled crank training would be most useful for cyclists who regularly experience uncoupling while pedaling, and for experienced cyclists when the duration or intensity of a session causes uncoupling to occur.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Sep 23, 2010
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JayKosta said:
My guess is that uncoupled crank training would be most useful for cyclists who regularly experience uncoupling while pedaling, and for experienced cyclists when the duration or intensity of a session causes uncoupling to occur.
My guess is you are correct. :) Of course, the duration and intensity of the training must be enough to overcome and correct these deficiencies. That is where the argument is, me thinks.
 
By the way...

I am not a 'true believer' in PowerCranks - I've never tried them, and don't personally know anyone who has.

I DO believe in the value of 'keep your feet moving' to avoid 'negative torque', and perhaps to give some additional 'positive torque' - as long as the effort of producing the additional torque does increase desired performance.

For cyclists who have difficulty 'keeping their feet moving', uncoupled cranks make it obvious and can assist in changing pedaling technique to avoid the uncoupling.

And YES, there are many other factors that are more important to performance than pedaling technique, but correcting a poor pedaling technique can improve performance.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
CoachFergie said:
Can you describe poor pedalling technique? Or give some examples?
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If I tried uncoupling cranks and found that they did 'uncouple' when I attempted to pedal in a TT-style, then I would try to change my technique to avoid the uncoupling.

It would be interesting to test elite competitors to determine whether their style results in frequent uncoupling. If uncoupling was rare or infrequent then perhaps learning that style would benefit those who aspire to better performance.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
JayKosta said:
If I tried uncoupling cranks and found that they did 'uncouple' when I attempted to pedal in a TT-style, then I would try to change my technique to avoid the uncoupling.

It would be interesting to test elite competitors to determine whether their style results in frequent uncoupling. If uncoupling was rare or infrequent then perhaps learning that style would benefit those who aspire to better performance.

But we don't race with uncoupled cranks. What pedalling errors are you seeing with coupled cranks that need to be corrected?
 
Sep 23, 2010
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CoachFergie said:
But we don't race with uncoupled cranks. What pedalling errors are you seeing with coupled cranks that need to be corrected?
Fergie, of course, unless you are looking for errors (as you don't) you cannot see them. You cannot see what you don't look for. Even if you are looking they are hard to find because the feet seem to move in a relatively smooth circle on coupled cranks regardless of the form. That is the major benefit of uncoupled cranks, to allow the user to see some of these technique errors and to help the rider to correct them whether they choose to race on uncoupled cranks (some do) or on coupled cranks (as most choose). When the ability to actually measure pedal forces becomes widely available then I predict it will soon become obvious that technique matters and the ability to know more about technique than even uncoupled cranks tells you will allow further improvements, I predict. We will see.
 
FrankDay said:
Fergie, of course, unless you are looking for errors (as you don't) you cannot see them. You cannot see what you don't look for.

Well as a Coach I do prefer to look for ways to improve. But most errors stand out like dogs balls. Was videoing my riders doing gate starts last night and comparing them with standing starts from the Elite riders in the world.

Even if you are looking they are hard to find because the feet seem to move in a relatively smooth circle on coupled cranks regardless of the form.

That is where I look at the well performed studies on pedalling technique and realise it looks smooth because it is.

That is the major benefit of uncoupled cranks, to allow the user to see some of these technique errors and to help the rider to correct them whether they choose to race on uncoupled cranks (some do) or on coupled cranks (as most choose).

What errors? Sounds like uncoupled cranks are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

When the ability to actually measure pedal forces becomes widely available then I predict it will soon become obvious that technique matters and the ability to know more about technique than even uncoupled cranks tells you will allow further improvements, I predict. We will see.

This technology has been available for years and has been well researched.
 
A 'easy test' tool might be careful listening to tire noise when riding rollers, or on a trainer.

If the tire noise is a steady constant sound then the power is probably being applied in a fairly constant amount around the full crank rotation.

If the noise 'pulses' in sync with crank rotation, then the power is probably also being applied in pulses - which means periods of strong & less power.

CoachFergie - have you noticed this type of noise differences with your riders? Is there a noise difference between your best riders and others?
Do you think the noise that I mention is useful as any type of indicator?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
JayKosta said:
A 'easy test' tool might be careful listening to tire noise when riding rollers, or on a trainer.

If the tire noise is a steady constant sound then the power is probably being applied in a fairly constant amount around the full crank rotation.

If the noise 'pulses' in sync with crank rotation, then the power is probably also being applied in pulses - which means periods of strong & less power.

CoachFergie - have you noticed this type of noise differences with your riders? Is there a noise difference between your best riders and others?
Do you think the noise that I mention is useful as any type of indicator?

With a wind trainer it may be hard to tell whether it is how a rider pedals or if it is to do with the tyre - roller interface.

However it was something that is very clear using a BT-ATS ergometer. I was doing a set up and noticed the fan noise increased as the rider pedalled on the left side. I asked if the rider had any injuries and he said he had previously torn his right Achilles.

Not so much on the LeMond Revolution which has a smaller (although noisier) fan.

As a coach I'm not so concerned about the noise the trainer makes more the power the rider can generate compared to the power they will need (specifically power to weight or power to frontal area) to contribute to the psychological, technical and tactical matters that make up a cycling performance.
 
CoachFergie said:
...
I was doing a set up and noticed the fan noise increased as the rider pedalled on the left side. I asked if the rider had any injuries and he said he had previously torn his right Achilles.
...
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Did you mention this to the rider as a 'problem' that needed correction?
Did the riders' right leg strength increase to be in better balance with the left with 'usual training', or was any special right leg training done (what type)?

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
JayKosta said:
Did you mention this to the rider as a 'problem' that needed correction?
Did the riders' right leg strength increase to be in better balance with the left with 'usual training', or was any special right leg training done (what type)?

Wasn't a rider I coach but I refereed him to a good physiotherapist.

Similar deal with one rider I did coach and the physio used a counterweight on the opposite pedal so he could do some single leg pedalling to get the balance back between the legs.
 
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