Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

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Re: Re:

Angliru said:
silvergrenade said:
Strip him of the Vuelta. His levels were above the limit. I hope UCI does make an example.
What I don't understand is: why claim to do Giro Tour double while knowing he might be facing a potential ban?
...because they/he think that they are above the law, special, unique, exceptions to the rules. They likely thought "Oh, this will blow over. It's nothing"
I think more likely they were hedging their bets? If the case/investigation/evidence submittal gets dragged out then he's got more chance of being free to ride in May than July.

Obviously if he's banned before then it doesn't matter anyway, and if the case is still ongoing in July then he has a go at the double, and at least gets kudos for trying, but I guess the scenario they wanted to avoid was he prepares for the tour and then gets banned in June and misses it, having sat out the Giro, and passed up on £2million or whatever the fee is.

And I guess - had this all remained confidential - if he was cleared before May then at some point shortly thereafter he might have developed some kind of muscle strain that meant he took a pass at the Giro in any case, and then re-targeted the tour. (In fact I'd bet now it's public, and if he is cleared before May, that he'll duck the Giro citing the stress of this case meant he's not mentally right.)
 
Re:

old man peanut said:
Saying people with asthma shouldn't be doing competitive sport is like saying people with glasses shouldn't be allowed to drive a car since they're slightly hampered by a condition they can't control. Although I myself never seeked measurements like Froome when doing competitive sports.

Look at wellens, he has a heat allergy and therefore decided to not ride in the hottest conditions (tdf).
 
Re: Re:

GenericBoonenFan said:
old man peanut said:
Saying people with asthma shouldn't be doing competitive sport is like saying people with glasses shouldn't be allowed to drive a car since they're slightly hampered by a condition they can't control. Although I myself never seeked measurements like Froome when doing competitive sports.

Look at wellens, he has a heat allergy and therefore decided to not ride in the hottest conditions (tdf).
That's a pretty poor analogy to be honest, on many levels.
 
Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
brownbobby said:
Pantani Attacks said:
Is Salbutamol even considered a PED? Are there any scientific studies done that shows it to be effective in aiding performance? I've a feeling they could get away with this.


Performance enhancing or not,that debate will continue to rumble on but is now irrelevant in this case. The rules are there and precedent has been set. The onus of proof is now on Froome, and if Froome cannot prove that he did not exceed the permissible doseage, then i don't see how he can possibly get away with it.
Salbutamol at high doses was performance enhancing. Don't have the source by hand. Something like 23% increase in duration till exhaustion
Its also depending on how he got it. If its through inhaler, tablets, syrups et.al.

Bottom line is that it gives you some delicate advantages over competitors in similar (racing) conditions. In order to overcome obstacles so that asmathics could compete the governing bodies have prescripted a minimum dosage over a limited time frame. Froomey is waaay over that dosage.

So, he will get a punishment for sure. The only thing for him now is to clear himself and explain how and why he is waaaay over the prescripted dosage.

Salbutamol is considered relative to Clenbuenterol btw.
 
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
GenericBoonenFan said:
old man peanut said:
Saying people with asthma shouldn't be doing competitive sport is like saying people with glasses shouldn't be allowed to drive a car since they're slightly hampered by a condition they can't control. Although I myself never seeked measurements like Froome when doing competitive sports.

Look at wellens, he has a heat allergy and therefore decided to not ride in the hottest conditions (tdf).
That's a pretty poor analogy to be honest, on many levels.
feel free to explain, cos I've heard both...
 
Apr 15, 2013
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Re: Re:

GenericBoonenFan said:
old man peanut said:
Saying people with asthma shouldn't be doing competitive sport is like saying people with glasses shouldn't be allowed to drive a car since they're slightly hampered by a condition they can't control. Although I myself never seeked measurements like Froome when doing competitive sports.

Look at wellens, he has a heat allergy and therefore decided to not ride in the hottest conditions (tdf).
No, what we are saying is that people with glasses shouldn't be able to compete in an eyesight competition...
 
Re: Re:

veji11 said:
GenericBoonenFan said:
old man peanut said:
Saying people with asthma shouldn't be doing competitive sport is like saying people with glasses shouldn't be allowed to drive a car since they're slightly hampered by a condition they can't control. Although I myself never seeked measurements like Froome when doing competitive sports.

Look at wellens, he has a heat allergy and therefore decided to not ride in the hottest conditions (tdf).
No, what we are saying is that people with glasses shouldn't be able to compete in an eyesight competition...
Imagine (that like me) you have asthma and when being a kid you're told you can't do sport unlike all your friends because taking medicines in order to not faint/end up in ER is wrong.
 
Re: Re:

No_Balls said:
Red Rick said:
brownbobby said:
Pantani Attacks said:
Is Salbutamol even considered a PED? Are there any scientific studies done that shows it to be effective in aiding performance? I've a feeling they could get away with this.


Performance enhancing or not,that debate will continue to rumble on but is now irrelevant in this case. The rules are there and precedent has been set. The onus of proof is now on Froome, and if Froome cannot prove that he did not exceed the permissible doseage, then i don't see how he can possibly get away with it.
Salbutamol at high doses was performance enhancing. Don't have the source by hand. Something like 23% increase in duration till exhaustion
Its also depending on how he got it. If its through inhaler, tablets, syrups et.al.

Bottom line is that it gives you some delicate advantages over competitors in similar (racing) conditions. In order to overcome obstacles so that asmathics could compete the governing bodies have prescripted a minimum dosage over a limited time frame. Froomey is waaay over that dosage.

So, he will get a punishment for sure. The only thing for him now is to clear himself and explain how and why he is waaaay over the prescripted dosage.

Salbutamol is considered relative to Clenbuenterol btw.
Except Clenbuterol is banned. Full stop. No therapeutic uses and no permissible levels in the body.
 
Apr 15, 2013
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Re: Re:

GenericBoonenFan said:
veji11 said:
GenericBoonenFan said:
old man peanut said:
Saying people with asthma shouldn't be doing competitive sport is like saying people with glasses shouldn't be allowed to drive a car since they're slightly hampered by a condition they can't control. Although I myself never seeked measurements like Froome when doing competitive sports.

Look at wellens, he has a heat allergy and therefore decided to not ride in the hottest conditions (tdf).
No, what we are saying is that people with glasses shouldn't be able to compete in an eyesight competition...
Imagine (that like me) you have asthma and when being a kid you're told you can't do sport unlike all your friends because taking medicines in order to not faint/end up in ER is wrong.
Noone said you can't do sport, you can do all the sport you want, but if you want to do competitive sport it's another matter, and certainly you shouldn't go pro.
 
Re: Re:

GenericBoonenFan said:
King Boonen said:
GenericBoonenFan said:
old man peanut said:
Saying people with asthma shouldn't be doing competitive sport is like saying people with glasses shouldn't be allowed to drive a car since they're slightly hampered by a condition they can't control. Although I myself never seeked measurements like Froome when doing competitive sports.

Look at wellens, he has a heat allergy and therefore decided to not ride in the hottest conditions (tdf).
That's a pretty poor analogy to be honest, on many levels.
feel free to explain, cos I've heard both...
Allowing people to wear glasses while driving does not potentially provide them with an advantage in the job market that is unavailable to those without glasses. It allows them to take part in what may be a very necessary part of normal life and reduces the general risk to other road users.

Being allowed to take drugs that may give you a performance boost over other athletes in a sport that people choose to take part in is very, very different. This would be a debate over the TUE system, which isn't really relevant here, but it's still a very poor analogy.
 
Re: Re:

No_Balls said:
Red Rick said:
brownbobby said:
Pantani Attacks said:
Is Salbutamol even considered a PED? Are there any scientific studies done that shows it to be effective in aiding performance? I've a feeling they could get away with this.


Performance enhancing or not,that debate will continue to rumble on but is now irrelevant in this case. The rules are there and precedent has been set. The onus of proof is now on Froome, and if Froome cannot prove that he did not exceed the permissible doseage, then i don't see how he can possibly get away with it.
Salbutamol at high doses was performance enhancing. Don't have the source by hand. Something like 23% increase in duration till exhaustion
Its also depending on how he got it. If its through inhaler, tablets, syrups et.al.

Bottom line is that it gives you some delicate advantages over competitors in similar (racing) conditions. In order to overcome obstacles so that asmathics could compete the governing bodies have prescripted a minimum dosage over a limited time frame. Froomey is waaay over that dosage.

So, he will get a punishment for sure. The only thing for him now is to clear himself and explain how and why he is waaaay over the prescripted dosage.

Salbutamol is considered relative to Clenbuenterol btw.
Not in this case it isn't. Wikipedia isn't always your friend.
 
Re: Re:

brownbobby said:
No_Balls said:
Red Rick said:
brownbobby said:
Pantani Attacks said:
Is Salbutamol even considered a PED? Are there any scientific studies done that shows it to be effective in aiding performance? I've a feeling they could get away with this.


Performance enhancing or not,that debate will continue to rumble on but is now irrelevant in this case. The rules are there and precedent has been set. The onus of proof is now on Froome, and if Froome cannot prove that he did not exceed the permissible doseage, then i don't see how he can possibly get away with it.
Salbutamol at high doses was performance enhancing. Don't have the source by hand. Something like 23% increase in duration till exhaustion
Its also depending on how he got it. If its through inhaler, tablets, syrups et.al.

Bottom line is that it gives you some delicate advantages over competitors in similar (racing) conditions. In order to overcome obstacles so that asmathics could compete the governing bodies have prescripted a minimum dosage over a limited time frame. Froomey is waaay over that dosage.

So, he will get a punishment for sure. The only thing for him now is to clear himself and explain how and why he is waaaay over the prescripted dosage.

Salbutamol is considered relative to Clenbuenterol btw.
Except Clenbuterol is banned. Full stop. No therapeutic uses and no permissible levels in the body.
Not saying its exactly the same. But its a fine thin line balancing between the performance enhancing drugs and straight out banned drugs - a loophole im certain Brailsford have identified and exploited.

Its like the norwegian skiing team who have caravans of trucks turned Salbutamol centrals on every race for inhalers. Im seeing something similar down the line for team sky.
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Just doing a naive literature search, I was able to find some papers on the effect of acute (Froome levels) ingestion of Salbutamol on aerobic performance. There aren't a ton, but the consensus is that low doses (4 puffs) do nothing. High doses (4-6 mg) don't affect short term performance (10 minutes), but do elevate blood glucose and insulin. High doses do improve performance in a huge way. Time to exhaustion increased by 29% in those who didn't have an adverse reaction. So in high doses I could see this used as a mostly legal PED and a recovery product. Just don't go over the max allowed!

Abstracts:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11071049
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10912897
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gregoire_Millet2/publication/11028047_Effects_of_Salbutamol_and_Caffeine_Ingestion_on_Exercise_Metabolism_and_Performance/links/0c960526c226db2126000000.pdf

John Swanson
 
Apr 14, 2010
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Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
GenericBoonenFan said:
old man peanut said:
Saying people with asthma shouldn't be doing competitive sport is like saying people with glasses shouldn't be allowed to drive a car since they're slightly hampered by a condition they can't control. Although I myself never seeked measurements like Froome when doing competitive sports.

Look at wellens, he has a heat allergy and therefore decided to not ride in the hottest conditions (tdf).
That's a pretty poor analogy to be honest, on many levels.
Indeed. If there was a drug that Wellens could take that made him faster in the heat them maybe it would be the same.
 
Red Rick said:
LosBrolin said:
18-Valve. (pithy) said:
Nibali:

"It had rained during those day in Spain and so it seems difficult that he suffered with asthma. I’ve got the same problem but when it rains the pollen doesn’t cause any problems and you don’t even need to take one puff of Ventolin,” Nibali said, according to Tuttobici.

"For sure this is a terrible news for the sport and for me."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/nibali-chris-froome-salbutamol-case-is-terrible-for-the-sport/
Daniel Friebe‏
@friebos

Note that Nibali's comments have now been edited on @tuttobiciweb_it website, with reference to Nibali's allergies and Ventolin removed. Curious...but guess that means they were originally "misreported" or have been withdrawn.

https://twitter.com/friebos/status/940917470277373952
Still though, I love how Nibali goes balls deep with his statements.
That quote has been almost completely withdrawn now, so I won't comment on how daft it is.

I'm vexed by Salbutamol limits. I use it as little as possible, but it's a highly individually variable thing, I've seen people who just can't get it under control no matter what they do. Nothing like the feeling of not being able to get air into your lungs to cure even the faintest hint of pharmacophobia. And the benefit I get, outside of stopping a coughing fit, is feeling lightheaded, which is why I only use it after exercise, particularly on open roads. But I'm on the wrong side of the pro consensus on that one, apparently.

The thing is, you need a TUE for pretty much all of the other asthma drugs, most of which (bar, as far as I can tell, Salbutamol) face actual evidence of performance benefits. So something's gotta give. I get why people might feel cheated, but I also get the need for allowing people to breathe. Particularly as it seems that it's often the cycling itself that causes the condition. Personally, if no performance effects have been found so far, and actual studies have been conducted, lifting the limits might be the best solution. But maybe I'm biased as Salbutamol works for me. So maybe conduct a more studies, or maybe a more stringent biological passport for asthmatics, or a "cleaner" way for us to forfeit a competition if need be, is the way forward. In any case want to see the rubber meet the road on this one, see things hopefully get a little more settled.

Still, the rules are the rules, and if Froome broke them well then that's that on that. And Nibali posing as the clean little angel who was getting ripped off by the cheats is beyond sublime.
 
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
No_Balls said:
Red Rick said:
brownbobby said:
Pantani Attacks said:
Is Salbutamol even considered a PED? Are there any scientific studies done that shows it to be effective in aiding performance? I've a feeling they could get away with this.


Performance enhancing or not,that debate will continue to rumble on but is now irrelevant in this case. The rules are there and precedent has been set. The onus of proof is now on Froome, and if Froome cannot prove that he did not exceed the permissible doseage, then i don't see how he can possibly get away with it.
Salbutamol at high doses was performance enhancing. Don't have the source by hand. Something like 23% increase in duration till exhaustion
Its also depending on how he got it. If its through inhaler, tablets, syrups et.al.

Bottom line is that it gives you some delicate advantages over competitors in similar (racing) conditions. In order to overcome obstacles so that asmathics could compete the governing bodies have prescripted a minimum dosage over a limited time frame. Froomey is waaay over that dosage.

So, he will get a punishment for sure. The only thing for him now is to clear himself and explain how and why he is waaaay over the prescripted dosage.

Salbutamol is considered relative to Clenbuenterol btw.
Not in this case it isn't. Wikipedia isn't always your friend.
Its not from Wikipedia but Department of Nutrition, Exercise & Sports, Section of Integrated Physiology from the University of Copenhagen. Im no scientist so when reading credible sources i take that as fact.
 
Re: Re:

GenericBoonenFan said:
Imagine (that like me) you have asthma and when being a kid you're told you can't do sport unlike all your friends because taking medicines in order to not faint/end up in ER is wrong.
Remember when Pistorius wasn't a murderer and the technical consensus was that he shouldn't be allowed to take part in non-Paralympic competitions because his prosthetics actually gave him an advantage over athletes with natural limbs?
 
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
GenericBoonenFan said:
King Boonen said:
GenericBoonenFan said:
old man peanut said:
Saying people with asthma shouldn't be doing competitive sport is like saying people with glasses shouldn't be allowed to drive a car since they're slightly hampered by a condition they can't control. Although I myself never seeked measurements like Froome when doing competitive sports.

Look at wellens, he has a heat allergy and therefore decided to not ride in the hottest conditions (tdf).
That's a pretty poor analogy to be honest, on many levels.
feel free to explain, cos I've heard both...
Allowing people to wear glasses while driving does not potentially provide them with an advantage in the job market that is unavailable to those without glasses. It allows them to take part in what may be a very necessary part of normal life and reduces the general risk to other road users.

Being allowed to take drugs that may give you a performance boost over other athletes in a sport that people choose to take part in is very, very different. This would be a debate over the TUE system, which isn't really relevant here, but it's still a very poor analogy.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but as i understand it since 2010 no TUE has been required for salbutamol within the prescribed doseage levels. Therefore any cyclist, without having to provide any evidence of asthma, is as free to use an inhaler as they are to take an energy gel.

In most of the medical literature i've read, it seems to be a commonly held fact that unless you really do suffer from asthma, then the use of an inhaler, certainly within the permissible limits, will have zero effects on performance, or indeed health in general. The manner in which the UCI/WADA classify this drug would seem to support this.

If this wasn't the case, if people genuinely thought there was a performance gain to be had, then surely we'd see the use of inhalers within the peloton even more widely than we do now.

On this basis, that asthma can be treated so simply and without any performance enhancement then i think its just wrong to say that people with asthma should be excluded from professional sport.

The subject of TUE's is entirely different, this deals with drugs which at any doseage, or drugs which above a certain doseage, can be misused to provide performance enhancing benefits.
 

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