Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[LaFlorecita]

I think more of Pantani (= AC, doped up since youth) vs. Ullrich (Froome the Diesel).

I side with Froome of course.

I am inclined to think Alberto could not afford dope back then.

 

[the big ring]

I am inclined to think Alberto could not afford dope back then.

Do you know who was he riding with?

Promising US & German juniors were doped by coaches and set a precedent for not needing to pay for it themselves.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Do you know who was he riding with?

Promising US & German juniors were doped by coaches and set a precedent for not needing to pay for it themselves.

He was racing for small regional teams. I don't know anything about coaches, but I can't imagine why coaches would invest money in doping up someone who's just been racing for a year.

 

[the big ring]

He was racing for small regional teams. I don't know anything about coaches, but I can't imagine why coaches would invest money in doping up someone who's just been racing for a year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Contador

When Contador was 15, he began to compete in races at the amateur level in Spain, joining the Real Velo Club Portillo from Madrid. Although he got no victories that year or the next, he demonstrated great qualities and was soon nicknamed Pantani (after Marco Pantani, regarded as one of the best climbers of all time) for his climbing skills.[17] In 2000, he experienced his first victories, winning several mountains classification prizes from prominent events on the Spanish amateur cycling calendar.[16]

He dropped out of school at the age of 16 (1998) without having finished his Bachillerato and signed with Iberdrola-Loinaz, a youth team run by Manolo Saiz, manager of the professional ONCE cycling team. In 2001, he won the under-23 Spanish time trial championship.[18]

I can.

ETA: You realise Manolo was involved in both the Festina affair (1998) AND Puerto, right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manolo_Saiz

 

[RichWalk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Contador



I can.

ETA: You realise Manolo was involved in both the Festina affair (1998) AND Puerto, right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manolo_Saiz

Pure coincidence surely Joking aside, AC could possibly be the best advocat of how clean cycling 'is' still exciting. I certainly have no proof the man is still doping but I'd have to be beyond naive not to be suspicious, one of these so called clean DS's should get this guy, publish all his blood work then let him ride 100 dope free. My bet is he wouldnt win any GT's but he'd still be a huge inspiration/role model for clean cycling.............just my two penneth

 

[LaFlorecita]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Contador



I can.

That is false.

Check the palmares section of his website.

http://albertocontador.org/palmares/

He only started racing with Iberdrola in 2001 when he was 18 years old.

 

[the big ring]

That is false.

Check the palmares section of his website.

http://albertocontador.org/palmares/

He only started racing with Iberdrola in 2001 when he was 18 years old.

Apologies. There were footnotes but none of them support the team name in question. It's unfortunate we cannot read about those races from so long ago - it sounds like he was an outstanding junior.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Apologies. There were footnotes but none of them support the team name in question. It's unfortunate we cannot read about those races from so long ago - it sounds like he was an outstanding junior.

There are numerous stories about those races, you just need to take some time to explore google.es

 

[the big ring]

There are numerous stories about those races, you just need to take some time to explore google.es

via google translate.

FWIW - I appreciate your honesty here and can understand your position, to an extent.

It would be nice if there was a reliable method of determining someone's true athletic potential regardless of previous / current doping, etc. Where you could step into a machine and it would spit out some numbers. Those numbers do not speak to all factors that go into winning a race (luck, courage, dedication, etc), by any means, but it'd be nice for riders claiming to be clean to do a quick n easy test to "prove" themselves for the unwashed masses.

 

[Runitout]

Fuentes, and the good ol 2 in 1 (Steak w/plasticzisers & clen).

Funny, I seem to recall him being cleared by the prosecutors for Puerto, and the plasticisers test dismissed for being unreliable.

I doubt that Contador is a doper and used plasticisers, but bolstering your opinion with bogus bulldust does you no credit. He was not 'caught' either regarding Puerto or plasticisers. It's simply untrue.

Pity, but we've only caught him once.

 

[hrotha]

Funny, I seem to recall him being cleared by the prosecutors for Puerto, and the plasticisers test dismissed for being unreliable.

You recall wrong. The plasticizer test wasn't used not because it was unreliable, but because it wasn't validated yet. The science behind it is sound.

The Puerto case is full of shadows and pages in the police report mysteriously missing.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Funny, I seem to recall him being cleared by the prosecutors for Puerto, and the plasticisers test dismissed for being unreliable.

I doubt that Contador is a doper and used plasticisers, but bolstering your opinion with bogus bulldust does you no credit. He was not 'caught' either regarding Puerto or plasticisers. It's simply untrue.

Pity, but we've only caught him once.

Do you have plasticizers in your urine?

Do u even know what plasticizers are is a better question reading your post again.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Froome and valverde crash

Froome being interviewed AFTER yesterdays stage saying that that was the first he knew about the Race Leader being involved in the crash !!!!

What ?????????????????????????

Are we meant to believe he didnt hear on race radio !!

that just seals Froome being a compulsive liar.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I'm sure AC is a charger, but your bias that Froome is clean since his arrival at the pro's is amusing (based in what exactly?), besides Froome's teams are hardly better

And the proof of Marco doping as a juvenile?

When did i say Froome is clean? I said i am not sure, and that i don´t know. Further, i said that he is less suspect than AC, b/c i doubt he started to blood dope as early as AC, since it would have been for basically nothing but to risk getting HIV in africa.

About Pantani, i was referring to podium cafes articles which opened my eyes... There is no doubt in my mind since then that Pantani was a blood doper since (at least) the very beginning of his pro career.

I assume your claim of AC doping as a junior or amateur is more than bias? Odd because I can't find a link.

Then the evidence:

- Fuentes: No conclusive evidence without DNA
- Clen: Almost every expert concludes it's contaminated food/supplements
- plasticizers: unaccepted test so no admissable evidence.

Funny, I seem to recall him being cleared by the prosecutors for Puerto, and the plasticisers test dismissed for being unreliable.

I doubt that Contador is a doper and used plasticisers, but bolstering your opinion with bogus bulldust does you no credit. He was not 'caught' either regarding Puerto or plasticisers. It's simply untrue.

Pity, but we've only caught him once.

To answer this, i don´t have to repeat myself again, thanks to sittingbison & hrotha who gave a good summary here:

This surprises me Franklin, because the very first time this argument was brought forth was after the CAS hearing, in explaining the presence of clen given the steak story was discredited. AC never suggested it, his lawyers never suggested it, Spanish authorities never suggested it, UCI never suggested it and Ashenden never suggested it. Ever.

As to the plasticizers, I think a certain obfuscation went on there, Ashenden was primed to give evidence, and a screaming match resulted during CAS. The inadmissibility was entirely debatable.

You recall wrong. The plasticizer test wasn't used not because it was unreliable, but because it wasn't validated yet. The science behind it is sound.

The Puerto case is full of shadows and pages in the police report mysteriously missing.

Finally, i never did or say something like this. A complete absurd post following here:

Foxxys method in doping issues is "stick with the supposed good guys as long as possible". He have worked with lies and misinformation in debate before so nothing new there.

Time to clean up in the clinic. There are self proclaimed doping hunters in here who dont even put their noses in threads concerning Sky.

 

[gheizhwinder]

that just seals Froome being a compulsive liar.

Yes, that clearly seals it. Case closed.

 

[Franklin]

This surprises me Franklin, because the very first time this argument was brought forth was after the CAS hearing, in explaining the presence of clen given the steak story was discredited. AC never suggested it, his lawyers never suggested it, Spanish authorities never suggested it, UCI never suggested it and Ashenden never suggested it. Ever.

As to the plasticizers, I think a certain obfuscation went on there, Ashenden was primed to give evidence, and a screaming match resulted during CAS. The inadmissibility was entirely debatable.

Actually, I distinctly remembering this being tossed in the first time. The whole reason neither AC, the Lawyers, Ashenden (AC witness) and the Spanish union never put it forward is easy:

it's still a bannable offense.

The idea that AC would bring forward something that would cost him he TdF is insane, especially since he already got his defense past the Spanish union.

 

[Franklin]

Do you have plasticizers in your urine?

A lot of us do, especially after a warm day

Again: I don't doubt AC is a charger, but he wasn't caught blood doping. let's stick to the facts instead of creating our own paralel reality.

It's the same with LA. let's party when the sentence is there, don't go ape**** now and crash to earth at the end. It saves tears.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Actually, I distinctly remembering this being tossed in the first time. The whole reason neither AC, the Lawyers, Ashenden (AC witness) and the Spanish union never put it forward is easy:

it's still a bannable offense.

The idea that AC would bring forward something that would cost him he TdF is insane, especially since he already got his defense past the Spanish union.

That whole CAS ruling was a joke. They searched and searched for a reason that Clen was in his body because they couldn't 100% prove he had a transfusion. Then they came up with a innocent but guilty verdict; a supplement that somehow got contamenated. Prove it CAS! They can't.

Why hasn't Contador sued the 'supllement delivery boy' hence he had to pay millions of his salary to the UCI?

Of course he was doped up, they couldn't prove it. Only for the 0,0000000000000000000000006 clen of course.

A lot of us do, especially after a warm day

Explain.

But you caught my drift.

 

[Franklin]

via google translate.

FWIW - I appreciate your honesty here and can understand your position, to an extent.

It would be nice if there was a reliable method of determining someone's true athletic potential regardless of previous / current doping, etc. Where you could step into a machine and it would spit out some numbers. Those numbers do not speak to all factors that go into winning a race (luck, courage, dedication, etc), by any means, but it'd be nice for riders claiming to be clean to do a quick n easy test to "prove" themselves for the unwashed masses.

This is why I have to protest at claiming for a fact that either Marco or Alberto was a youth doper. We don't know and it's futile to try to get that history straight after all those years (at junior level data will be scarce, especially after ten years or longer).

What we know is enough, we don't have to make up our own reality.

Btw, Foxxy, Kenyans don't dope due to fear of HIV? HUH?

1. Epo and HIV have....mmmm zero connection?
2. Kenyan runners are absolutely above suspicion due to fears for HIV?
3. The stories of epo being available at low levels through running "doctors" is somehow impossible for Froome to obtain?
4. Blood doping your own blood is somehow connected with HIV?

I'm not going to claim Froome charged as a youth, but epo and blooddoping certainly are known in Kenya. The "HIV" argument is completely bogus. As if Kenyan athletes are dying left and right due to blood doping induced HIV...

 

[Franklin]

That whole CAS ruling was a joke. They searched and searched for a reason that Clen was in his body because they couldn't 100% prove he had a transfusion. Then they came up with a innocent but guilty verdict; a supplement that somehow got contamenated. Prove it CAS! They can't.

Agreed. It was a farce and abuse of justice. UCI/IOC/WADA should have brought down the hammer on Fuentes and have a DNA check on the whole peloton.

Now it's to late and all what is can be done is "etting even". That's simply not how justice should work.

Why hasn't Contador sued the 'supllement delivery boy' hence he had to pay millions of his salary to the UCI?

How do you proof it? How come the others of his team didn't have the clen? Was it just one jar? Which supplement?

There simply was no case for Contador *And note that I think he was charging so where would he have to start?!*

Explain.

In warm weather we drink more soft drinks and afaik plasticizers are released easier at higher temperatures. Plastic cups, food packaged in plastic, sucking on plastic tablewear, sucking a ballpoint, all can be sources of plasticizers.

Not to say that in the measured amounts the link tot blood bag isn't the more logical (and probably correct). It's just a tad hard to claim a "100% certainly a blood bag" verdict. judicial neigh impossible to uphold. It would only result in expensive hearings with a high amount of athletes winning their appeal.

And that isn't the signal you want to give the dopers

 

[Franklin]

Also, is the 'salary punishment' enforcable? Didn't MR win that one easily?

Did AC really pay his salary back?

And yes, he will have had a few million in damages either way due to lost price money and bonusses. Just not so sure if you can dock someone so easily here in Europe.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Why hasn't Contador sued the 'supllement delivery boy' hence he had to pay millions of his salary to the UCI?

Uhm what are you saying? He didn't have to pay anything.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Also, is the 'salary punishment' enforcable? Didn't MR win that one easily?

Did AC really pay his salary back?

And yes, he will have had a few million in damages either way due to lost price money and bonusses. Just not so sure if you can dock someone so easily here in Europe.

And I read somewhere Alberto invested about a million euros in his defense.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

This is why I have to protest at claiming for a fact that either Marco or Alberto was a youth doper. We don't know and it's futile to try to get that history straight after all those years (at junior level data will be scarce, especially after ten years or longer).

What we know is enough, we don't have to make up our own reality.

Btw, Foxxy, Kenyans don't dope due to fear of HIV? HUH?

1. Epo and HIV have....mmmm zero connection?
2. Kenyan runners are absolutely above suspicion due to fears for HIV?
3. The stories of epo being available at low levels through running "doctors" is somehow impossible for Froome to obtain?
4. Blood doping your own blood is somehow connected with HIV?

I'm not going to claim Froome charged as a youth, but epo and blooddoping certainly are known in Kenya. The "HIV" argument is completely bogus. As if Kenyan athletes are dying left and right due to blood doping induced HIV...

Hey Mr super clever...

Who said there is only blood doping w/own blood? Especially in the older days (like 2007, Vino, you know...)
WTF has it to do w/kenyan runners? And if you wanna connect rich runners blood dope programs to some obscure mountain bikers money, then how you know the runners are all healty?
WTF, learn to read before posting nonsense. I have N O T talked about Froome´s alleged doping of now, and how is he connected to 2012 runners doping when he is at Sky???

You wanna tell me when having no state sponsored program & no money like rich runners, you try your luck by risking blood doping in africa? WTF, try it out and show me your results after one year.

Ridiculous.

 

[Franklin]

You wanna tell me when having no state sponsored program & no money like rich runners, you try your luck by risking blood doping in africa? WTF, try it out and show me your results after one year.

I acknowledge you skip over the Epo possibilities.

Ridiculous indeed.

*And about rich runners? You are a hoot

Conjecture is dandy and fine about AC, but Froome can't be doping when he was younger due to HIV? Strange bias indeed.