Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[mrhender]

Hmmm can't use these.... What to do

AHHHH Got it

 

[thehog]

I made that same point in your response to me. He *thinks* he might have a reaction, fine, you take a hit. But my next paragraph said, hmmmm...why have we never seen him do this before? Or even brought up and mentioned?

True, I've done the same. I didn't need a doctor to tell me what my condition was. Cold weather exercised induces asthma, allergy induced asthma. I take a few things when necessary, including singular 5mg/day. Same point as above. But I've been to the doctor for confirmation and testing. There are standard tests using inhalers to determine if you have certain conditions, that assumes you are experiencing them at that time though.

Yes, perfect point I've been making like a broken record over and over in many threads about defining what performance enhacement is. This guy agrees with me. Fascinating!

I posted a similar study about 20 pages back. The point with these are that the "athletes" tested were normal, they didn't and were not diagnosed with asthma or any respiratory illness. And it didn't improve performance.

There is no study I could find for people like "Froome", who say they have asthma, to measure their performance with asthmatic reactions, and after they use the inhaler. That is the point. Obviously, there will be a marked difference and improvement, hence, why I always argue performance is relative. If you went from ZERO peformance due to asthma, take your inhaler hit, then you can perform and ride...that is performance enhancement. Making some arbitrary judgement and comparison against another person is meaningless...because there is no "normal".

The point Stapleton makes is that asthma medication isn't used for performance enhancement but as an aid to conceal cortisone usage. An offset if you will against injecting cortisone.

Which we know Sky do.

Bob Stapleton, T-Mobile's sporting director, said several of his riders have exemptions for asthma. "They know that if there's any misuse of that product, they're going to get caught, so it's a crazy thing to do."

Some say a bigger problem is that medications like salbutamol can mask other doping agents.

"There's a general belief in the sport - I'm not sure it's true - that injecting corticoids into your body gives you a real performance boost," Stapleton said. "So if you use the inhaler, it's a way of saying 'Ah, this is why I have it in my blood.'

 

[sniper]

he wasn't coughing here:
http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/video/36325955651/Chris-Froome
(btw, lol@ "good to see they're human too"...)

do we have footage of froome coughing?
would like to here some expert comment on it.
could it be a fake cough?

 

[mrhender]

[/QUOTE] I posted a similar study about 20 pages back. The point with these are that the "athletes" tested were normal, they didn't and were not diagnosed with asthma or any respiratory illness. And it didn't improve performance.

There is no study I could find for people like "Froome", who say they have asthma, to measure their performance with asthmatic reactions, and after they use the inhaler. That is the point. Obviously, there will be a marked difference and improvement, hence, why I always argue performance is relative. If you went from ZERO peformance due to asthma, take your inhaler hit, then you can perform and ride...that is performance enhancement. Making some arbitrary judgement and comparison against another person is meaningless...because there is no "normal".[/QUOTE]

I get your points.

It may very well be that for froome the effect is notable maybe to prevent his couching attacks during the race. Then you could call it performance-enhancing. (Asuming he has ashtma)

But if it has no effect on non-asthmatic then the effect on an asthmatic could supercede the non-asthamtic state?

 

[hiero2]

The `what was in the inhaler' is an interesting question. I've just done a bit of a search and it appears that with the exception of two products, all of the drugs are for asthma/COPD. The exceptions I found were a device containing an analgesic, but it appears to be quite a large device, plus one for influenza.

Not sure how far you looked, but results of what drugs are available in what form will vary quite a bit from country to country.

I find it quite difficult to find on the internet details of what is available even as close to me as Canada. Never mind South Africa or Kenya, Columbia, etc.

To do this research, you first have the problem of is it a controlled substance or OTC. Then you have the condition and vitality of the grey/black market. In many parts of the world, the "black" market is as strong as the regulated market.

Then you could also have the problem of custom-filled inhalers. I'd be willing to bet one could get something like that without a great cost - if you knew someone with the right equipment.

It is STILL an interesting question - what was in the inhaler. And, would I believe Froome if he told me?

I'm just pointing out that researching this by looking at what is on the market may be difficult.

 

[sniper]

It is STILL an interesting question - what was in the inhaler.

he first drains that inhaler like some sort of junky, then blows the field away with a mightily impressive uphill performance.
so yes, it's an interesting question.
anyway, is the UCI showing any interest at all in inhaler-gate?
fighting for a cleaner sport, they should be interested in the contents of that inhaler

 

[froooome]

It is STILL an interesting question - what was in the inhaler.

X-Kryptonite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kryptonite

 

[oldcrank]

It seems asthma is one more thing that Christopher
''Mfalme Wa Barabara'' Froome and Gregory James
Lemond have in common.

 

[doolols]

Whenever I'm feeling a bit down, I know I can always pop in here, and have a good laugh. "Round and round she goes ..." with the same old nonsense time after time.

"We've never seen him use an inhaler before ..." Have you had a camera staring at him during the easier portions of a race, stage after stage? Just because you haven't seen an event, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

With the micro-analysis of every utterance from Froome and Sky, there's no wonder things crop up which, taken out of context, look strange.

I'll pop back tomorrow, ready to have a good laugh at the same old stuff being regurgitated in place of anything new, real and substantive.

 

[thehog]

Whenever I'm feeling a bit down, I know I can always pop in here, and have a good laugh. "Round and round she goes ..." with the same old nonsense time after time.

"We've never seen him use an inhaler before ..." Have you had a camera staring at him during the easier portions of a race, stage after stage? Just because you haven't seen an event, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

With the micro-analysis of every utterance from Froome and Sky, there's no wonder things crop up which, taken out of context, look strange.

I'll pop back tomorrow, ready to have a good laugh at the same old stuff being regurgitated in place of anything new, real and substantive.

I felt the same way after reading the Walsh book

 

[doolols]

I felt the same way after reading the Walsh book

ROFL Touché

 

[zigmeister]

The point Stapleton makes is that asthma medication isn't used for performance enhancement but as an aid to conceal cortisone usage. An offset if you will against injecting cortisone.

Which we know Sky do.

What? The article in reference mentions nothing about a beta-2 antogonist being able to act as a masking agent of cortisone.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/2007-07-20-3694433468_x.htm

"Some say a bigger problem is that medications like salbutamol can mask other doping agents.

"There's a general belief in the sport - I'm not sure it's true - that injecting corticoids into your body gives you a real performance boost," Stapleton said. "So if you use the inhaler, it's a way of saying 'Ah, this is why I have it in my blood.'"


There is no validity to this claim by Stapleton...made in 2007 out of ignorance I would suppose. As we all know, Bob Stapleton is/was as complicity with T-Mo and Lance as anybody, but has avoided the downfall as others have.

There is not medical known validity to a beta2-agonist being able to mask cortisone intake. Can't find that anywhere.

What would be a better way to say this, is an analogy of, well, they found salbuterol in my system, since they allow it, can't penalize me. Same for cortisone cream etc..that might then mask actual cortisone pill consumption at higher levels (Lance excuse). You would have to bathe in a tub of cortisone cream to absorb enough to raise your levels like this compared to 5-10mg cortisone pill.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Inhaled cortisone (legal) would 'mask' other cortisone use (which may not be legal IC) quite nicely.

 

[McLovin]

Whenever I'm feeling a bit down, I know I can always pop in here, and have a good laugh. "Round and round she goes ..." with the same old nonsense time after time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fpbOEoRrHyU#t=664

Full of Ralph Macchios here

 

[Ventoux Boar]

The point Stapleton makes is that asthma medication isn't used for performance enhancement but as an aid to conceal cortisone usage. An offset if you will against injecting cortisone.

Which we know Sky do.

How do we know that sky use asthma medication to conceal cortisone usage?

 

[BYOP88]

How do we know that sky use asthma medication to conceal cortisone usage?

To play devil's advocate. How do we know they don't?

 

[Ventoux Boar]

To play devil's advocate. How do we know they don't?

Best evidence is that hog said the opposite is true. How come you guys are cool with posters making stuff up seemingly all the time?

 

[thrawn]

How do we know that sky use asthma medication to conceal cortisone usage?

I think Hog was saying that we know that Sky use cortisone injections, not necessarily that we know they use asthma medications to conceal this usage.

 

[BYOP88]

Best evidence is that hog said the opposite is true. How come you guys are cool with posters making stuff up seemingly all the time?

Just because I'm not a believer when it comes to Froome, doesn't mean I agree with everything that's posted from 'people on my side' just as it means I don't disagree with everything posted by 'people on the other side'.

 

[Catwhoorg]

I think Hog was saying that we know that Sky use cortisone injections, not necessarily that we know they use asthma medications to conceal this usage.

I would add to that Cortisone injections are not prohibited in any way in the "Out of Competition" time frame.

Oral, IV, IM and rectal steroids are banned IC.

 

[Saint Unix]

Best evidence is that hog said the opposite is true. How come you guys are cool with posters making stuff up seemingly all the time?

Sky seem to be making stuff up as they go along too. Why are you cool with that?

 

[Hawkwood]

Not sure how far you looked, but results of what drugs are available in what form will vary quite a bit from country to country.

I did a search on all uses of inhalers, but obviously not an all embracing one. One issue is that many drugs probably cannot be delivered via an inhaler. Another issue is that the actual delivery of drugs via an inhaler can be very ineffective depending upon the technique used, and the circumstances in which the person is taking it. Spacers are often recommended as they help to increase the amount of drug delivered. There is an BMJ paper somewhere where the authors discuss the cost benefit of delivering drugs via an inhaler, given that a lot of the drug doesn't end up in the lungs. I'm certainly not an expert on this, just someone who's suffered from asthma for a long time, and is interested in not having the illness.

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Sky seem to be making stuff up as they go along too. Why are you cool with that?

Point me to their posts and I'll have a look.

 

[DirtyWorks]

he first drains that inhaler like some sort of junky, then blows the field away with a mightily impressive uphill performance.
so yes, it's an interesting question.
anyway, is the UCI showing any interest at all in inhaler-gate?
fighting for a cleaner sport, they should be interested in the contents of that inhaler

End of discussion.

Apparently they are more interested in protecting Froome's ability to attract an audience?

 

[lllludo]

hereafter a list of notorious asthmatics :
Marcel Proust
Jan Ullrich
http://www.dhnet.be/archive/l-asthme-d-ullrich-51b86884e4b0de6db9a4c4d1
Miguel Indurain
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/drugs-in-sport-indurain-allowed-to-use-banned-drug-1386683.html
Oscar Pereiro
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2007/mcquaid_pereiro
Alex Zulle
positive for salbutamol in 93
Tony Rominger
positive for salbutamol in 94

All these guys, except Marcel Proust, are recent grand tour winners, have done blood doping, are asthmatics, ran into trouble because of their ventolin

Do you think Froome has more in common with these guys or with Marcel Proust ?