BigMac said:
Netserk said:
BigMac said:
I think Koran believes what he's saying, so give them some slack. Let's see how it escalates. Until then refrain from public trolling accusations, please.
lol
Can you blame me?
There are some hardcore believers out there who refuse to face the evidence.
Thing is, the forum has a rule that if you are banned you cannot come back. Obviously many people value innocent until proven guilty, but these 2 actually clash on an internet forum because the guilty can always just get a new account and then the mods have to start
Imagine if in real life, every time a doper got caught they could just warg into another personality and try their doping again. A decade to bring down Armstrong and he just disapears into the body of another cyclist and you have to start the whole process all over again.
That's how it is here when a poster gets perma banned. They just abandon the account they used and create a totally different one. Then they cry that everyone has to act as if they are innocent until proven guilty.
This doesn't work.
When people get permabanned there is a reason. It isn't because they called someone an idiot. Hell it isn't even because they wished death on another poster, we know that because Peter70 did that last week and only got a month ban. You get a permaban when you are seriously a nuissance to this forum.
In my opinion, the forum needs to do something to protect this weapon that it has - permabans. At the moment they are worthless because any poster can come back and be granted the same rights and benefit of the doubt as respected posters who have been here for years. If someone points out its them, they get warned and the poster who has done nothing but register an account and made one or two posts, is given the trust that should be reserved only for posters that the forum is familiar with.
Back in the 2010's no one got banned for pointing out every time BPC came back. That's what BPC always cried for. But if the forum had allowed every single new account 100% rights, it would have just become a forum for trolls. In the end everytime Hugh Januss or Race Radio or whoever said that it was BPC, it was BPC. BPC and his 1 or 2 non banned Lance allies always claimed that these posters were being bullies, that they were using this to somehow stiffle opinion, but this never actually happened. It was easy to spot BPC and everytime someone identified him, they were right.
By the same token, anyone who has been a clinic regular for the last few years knows this isn't Ramon's first time. He knows very well what buttons to push. He isn't even trying to hide it. Sometimes they really do try to hide it, they register an account years in advanced, make sure to post non clinic stuff on it, then slowly edge into the clinic sometime later and are careful not to give themselves away. Ramon was created a week ago and all his posts are deliberate baits. Vickers or Lauren or whatever you want to call him has done this on a number of occasions. He puts in his usual soundbites like "Typical, someone doesnt share your point of view, you accuse him of being a troll, instead of debating your point of view" and wants to see how long he can get away with it and right now it seems, longer than ever.
Imo, just like in the early 2010's with BPC, mods should be a bit more liberal in allowing clinic regulars to call out sockpuppets. Of course there might be some trigger happy members who do this too often, and you don't want people to abuse this, but in that case you can step in and warn people if they take it too far. Most people however aren't going to use that right to bully people, only to point out when an actual sockpuppet does step in - look who it is.
Now to get to your point, the idea that there are actually people who believe what Ramon is writing, out there. I don't actually think theres that many. But anyway, it usually comes from ignorance. In any case, the way you phrased it is telling. You wrote "hardcore believers out there who refuse to face the evidence".
"Refuse to face the evidence". Exactly. They refuse to face the evidence. These are the last people that will come to the clinic to actually discuss doping.
But anyway, lets pretend for a second that they do exist, and that one of them has for some reason been compelled to join the clinic on July the 4th and become a very active poster immediately.
What is this place, its a discussion board. While people are perfectly within their rights to whatever opinion they hold, there should be some expectation that if you come here you will take part in a discussion. And not just say "I believe Walsh is great and you are all trolls", and then when challenged on it say "I believe you are all bitter". For all the 2 or 3 people that keep reregistering accounts here want to mock the clinic members as insane, irrational etc, there is not one of us who isn't prepared to defend their opinions with arguments and links and evidence.
These constant newbies just want to annoy certain posters and hopefully stir the pot by offering constant unsubstantiated observations. And its always the same observations.
Ramon for example, just by looking through a brief history of his posts in the past couple of days he has offered the following classic troll lines.
: Top riders don't dope because it would hurt their health. But 2nd tier riders might
: Froome had a linear progression
: Sky have 0 tolerance to doping
: Walsh spends time with Froome to make sure he isn't doping.
: Sky invest millions in equipment research
: Clean era
: Posters need to get a life
: Accuses others of trolling. In both clinic and road discussions
: Doubters are "bitter"
: Froome was poor because of Bilharzia
All of the above have been disproved hundreds of times in the clinic. In any case, Ramon has not been interested in arguing any of them. He just came in, scattered around all the above like a Mac 10, and moves onto the next bait. He also demonstrates prior knowledge of clinic and especially in his baits to some Nibali and Contador fans, knows exactly which buttons to push on what posters.
And that's not how rational human beings behave anyway. Thats just how people who want to come in here to annoy as much as possible behave.
And in each case he gets a response - the aim. and then moves onto the next one.
and just to be clear, I'm not saying you should ban these posters (though less evidence than for a more active poster should be needed). What I'm saying is that when clinic regulars call them out as sockpuppets, they should be given some benefit of the doubt, not the new poster who has simply created an account a few days earlier.