Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I'm aware of that, but if your belief is the top 30 are on PEDs based on erroneous observations like less-than perfect palamares, vein bulginess, time gains or comparing todays peloton to that of cycling's past it seems like a belief based on the logic of a type of religion and not the evidence in front of you and I'm not comfortable when belief-alone is used to accuse someone of something they can't prove because it requires the evidence of absence, which is simply impossible.

no, you get your logic wrong.

I am not saying seven watts per kilo. I am saying, the top 30 will all be on an oxygen vector. The sprinters similarly. Sagan too.

I am just showing you some of the symptoms of those peptides, more veins than your schloeng.

 

[samhocking]

Re:

I hope Quintana puts 1:30 into Froome in the Alps, then we can see how Moviestar explains such unbelievable performance to the Clinic lol!

movistar: "Quintana is a natural talent, altitude native, naturaly high hematocrit, he also had a tailwind and Vayer is wrong with his estimates"

the clinic: "haha, what a bunch of crap, he is obviously doping"

no one: "but he is british so he must be clean"

And there in a nutshell is the flaw in 90% of the clinic. Accusation based on belief alone, yet using words like 'obviously'. lol!

 

[Tommy79]

Re: Re:

Nope. Quintana is still eligible for the young riders jersey. Froome at that age was hanging on to motorbikes to get over the climbs.

Motorbikes?

Climbs?

Why do guys keep making this sound like it was more than one occasion? It's like they know they have a really weak argument or something so have to exaggerate and fudge.

 

[Tommy79]

Re: Re:

I hope Quintana puts 1:30 into Froome in the Alps, then we can see how Moviestar explains such unbelievable performance to the Clinic lol!

movistar: "Quintana is a natural talent, altitude native, naturaly high hematocrit, he also had a tailwind and Vayer is wrong with his estimates"

the clinic: "haha, what a bunch of crap, he is obviously doping"

no one: "but he is british so he must be clean"

And there in a nutshell is the flaw in 90% of the clinic. Accusation based on belief alone, yet using words like 'obviously'. lol!

Hey, they have a really strong case against Quintana!

He... goes home a lot.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Re:

I hope Quintana puts 1:30 into Froome in the Alps, then we can see how Moviestar explains such unbelievable performance to the Clinic lol!

movistar: "Quintana is a natural talent, altitude native, naturaly high hematocrit, he also had a tailwind and Vayer is wrong with his estimates"

the clinic: "haha, what a bunch of crap, he is obviously doping"

no one: "but he is british so he must be clean"

And there in a nutshell is the flaw in 90% of the clinic. Accusation based on belief alone, yet using words like 'obviously'. lol!

No, there is just no need to rehash long and involved arguments every single time when most posters have already seen them and agreed to them. Except the new posters of course, who sign up and immediately head to the clinic to let everyone know that Dave B's word is gospel.

Just because you seem to be unfamiliar with the arguments as to why the incidence and extent of doping in cycling remains high, and why the best riders are the most likely to dope ceteris paribus, doesn't mean those argument don't exist. They are here to be found in the clinic. In this very thread even.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

I'm aware of that, but if your belief is the top 30 are on PEDs based on erroneous observations like less-than perfect palamares, vein bulginess, time gains or comparing todays peloton to that of cycling's past it seems like a belief based on the logic of a type of religion and not the evidence in front of you and I'm not comfortable when belief-alone is used to accuse someone of something they can't prove because it requires the evidence of absence, which is simply impossible.

no, you get your logic wrong.

I am not saying seven watts per kilo. I am saying, the top 30 will all be on an oxygen vector. The sprinters similarly. Sagan too.

I am just showing you some of the symptoms of those peptides, more veins than your schloeng.

That's your belief, so if the top 30 will all be on an oxygen vector, peptides, whatever you believe, what is your belief Froome and Sky is on to make the difference? As far as I can tell, Sky are being accused of doing the same as everyone else, yet everyone else aren't winning, therefore what is it Sky are accused of exactly?

 

[Lyon]

Re: Re:

I am just showing you some of the symptoms of those peptides, more veins than your schloeng.

To be fair, Sean Yates used to have those veiny legs as well. There is a photo of it in an old issue of Winning.

 

[gillan1969]

Re:

So a smooth career progression to the top is required in the clinic. I struggle to find a rider with a smooth career progression who won the Tour de France and never got busted, so what is the point of this argument?

your argument appears to be with yourself...you seem to be missing the point...the reason Froome is getting so much opprobrium is that he had 4 years being very very ordinary. In order to now hit the physiological heights he is hitting he needs more than just blood sweat and tears...he needs to have an engine the size of (see Michele Ferrari for mammal of choice)...and if he had that engine...we would have seen it during those 4 years...Quintana knocked a Dauphine in year 1 for example, Valverde 3rd at Vuelta in year 2, Contador (despite verifiable health issues) did well in stage races in 2005.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

So a smooth career progression to the top is required in the clinic. I struggle to find a rider with a smooth career progression who won the Tour de France and never got busted, so what is the point of this argument?

Not so much a smooth progression as clear signs of early talent. You can't be the greatest athlete in the last 25 years and not show any of that promise in your youth.

What with the support of the massive Kenyan Cycling Association? Even those with talent are nurtured and have elite coaches from an early age. It's not like he couldn't even make it as a pro with the little support he had

He rode for Barloworld in Europe. It wasn't a small team.

 

[veganrob]

Re: Re:

I hope Quintana puts 1:30 into Froome in the Alps, then we can see how Moviestar explains such unbelievable performance to the Clinic lol!

movistar: "Quintana is a natural talent, altitude native, naturaly high hematocrit, he also had a tailwind and Vayer is wrong with his estimates"

the clinic: "haha, what a bunch of crap, he is obviously doping"

no one: "but he is british so he must be clean"

And there in a nutshell is the flaw in 90% of the clinic. Accusation based on belief alone, yet using words like 'obviously'. lol!

Yet you didn't address the point of sceptics post

 

[Tommy79]

Re: Re:

So a smooth career progression to the top is required in the clinic. I struggle to find a rider with a smooth career progression who won the Tour de France and never got busted, so what is the point of this argument?

Not so much a smooth progression as clear signs of early talent. You can't be the greatest athlete in the last 25 years and not show any of that promise in your youth.

What with the support of the massive Kenyan Cycling Association? Even those with talent are nurtured and have elite coaches from an early age. It's not like he couldn't even make it as a pro with the little support he had

He rode for Barloworld in Europe. It wasn't a small team.

We know that Barloworld left their riders pretty much to their own devices training/development wise. Don't think it did Froome any favours.

 

[gazr99]

Re: Re:

So a smooth career progression to the top is required in the clinic. I struggle to find a rider with a smooth career progression who won the Tour de France and never got busted, so what is the point of this argument?

Not so much a smooth progression as clear signs of early talent. You can't be the greatest athlete in the last 25 years and not show any of that promise in your youth.

What with the support of the massive Kenyan Cycling Association? Even those with talent are nurtured and have elite coaches from an early age. It's not like he couldn't even make it as a pro with the little support he had

He rode for Barloworld in Europe. It wasn't a small team.

On the back of what he showed at the Commonwealths, people could see potential there.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

So a smooth career progression to the top is required in the clinic. I struggle to find a rider with a smooth career progression who won the Tour de France and never got busted, so what is the point of this argument?

your argument appears to be with yourself...you seem to be missing the point...the reason Froome is getting so much opprobrium is that he had 4 years being very very ordinary. In order to now hit the physiological heights he is hitting he needs more than just blood sweat and tears...he needs to have an engine the size of (see Michele Ferrari for mammal of choice)...and if he had that engine...we would have seen it during those 4 years...Quintana knocked a Dauphine in year 1 for example, Valverde 3rd at Vuelta in year 2, Contador (despite verifiable health issues) did well in stage races in 2005.

You're assuming a rider starts a career with identical circumstances though and with identical oportunities followed at identical crossroads in their career. Case in point Thomas only started in a leadership role in 2013 from previous domestique career to pay the bills while pursuiting. His circumstances and the oportunities he decided to take won't match that of a more classic continental GT contender. Likewise, Froome growing up in South Africa won't have anything like the career path of a Valverde or Contador coming through a traditional route to the top. No doubt their ability got them there, but place Valverde in South Africa until 18 or whatever and he might have followed a similar jump as Froome.
The other point is, where is the evidence that the ability to win a GT must be developed throughout a career from junior, through U23 and then senior racing. Either the ability is there or it isn't and it doesn't take a decade to reach the same performance level.

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Re: Re:

So a smooth career progression to the top is required in the clinic. I struggle to find a rider with a smooth career progression who won the Tour de France and never got busted, so what is the point of this argument?

Not so much a smooth progression as clear signs of early talent. You can't be the greatest athlete in the last 25 years and not show any of that promise in your youth.

What with the support of the massive Kenyan Cycling Association? Even those with talent are nurtured and have elite coaches from an early age. It's not like he couldn't even make it as a pro with the little support he had

He rode for Barloworld in Europe. It wasn't a small team.

On the back of what he showed at the Commonwealths, people could see potential there.

Err yeah, he had the potential to be a good rider for a team like Barloworld
That team apparently also saw potential in such great future champions as David Tanner, Carlo Scognamiglio and Michele Gaia

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

So a smooth career progression to the top is required in the clinic. I struggle to find a rider with a smooth career progression who won the Tour de France and never got busted, so what is the point of this argument?

Nibs

 

[zastomito]

Exchange Froome for Armstrong and it's the same *** we've been seeing for years from Wonderlance, Polish and few others.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

So a smooth career progression to the top is required in the clinic. I struggle to find a rider with a smooth career progression who won the Tour de France and never got busted, so what is the point of this argument?

Not so much a smooth progression as clear signs of early talent. You can't be the greatest athlete in the last 25 years and not show any of that promise in your youth.

Exactly. I was arguing about this on twitter the other day. I said "his palmares before Vuelta 2011 was very average at best" but apparently coming 2nd in Giro del Capo at age 23 is a clear sign of massive talent.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Re: Re:

So a smooth career progression to the top is required in the clinic. I struggle to find a rider with a smooth career progression who won the Tour de France and never got busted, so what is the point of this argument?

your argument appears to be with yourself...you seem to be missing the point...the reason Froome is getting so much opprobrium is that he had 4 years being very very ordinary. In order to now hit the physiological heights he is hitting he needs more than just blood sweat and tears...he needs to have an engine the size of (see Michele Ferrari for mammal of choice)...and if he had that engine...we would have seen it during those 4 years...Quintana knocked a Dauphine in year 1 for example, Valverde 3rd at Vuelta in year 2, Contador (despite verifiable health issues) did well in stage races in 2005.

You're assuming a rider starts a career with identical circumstances though and with identical oportunities followed at identical crossroads in their career. Case in point Thomas only started in a leadership role in 2013 from previous domestique career to pay the bills while pursuiting. His circumstances and the oportunities he decided to take won't match that of a more classic continental GT contender. Likewise, Froome growing up in South Africa won't have anything like the career path of a Valverde or Contador coming through a traditional route to the top. No doubt their ability got them there, but place Valverde in South Africa until 18 or whatever and he might have followed a similar jump as Froome.
The other point is, where is the evidence that the ability to win a GT must be developed throughout a career from junior, through U23 and then senior racing. Either the ability is there or it isn't and it doesn't take a decade to reach the same performance level.

Froome transformed overnight though.

 

[gazr99]

Re: Re:

So a smooth career progression to the top is required in the clinic. I struggle to find a rider with a smooth career progression who won the Tour de France and never got busted, so what is the point of this argument?

Not so much a smooth progression as clear signs of early talent. You can't be the greatest athlete in the last 25 years and not show any of that promise in your youth.

What with the support of the massive Kenyan Cycling Association? Even those with talent are nurtured and have elite coaches from an early age. It's not like he couldn't even make it as a pro with the little support he had[/quote]
He rode for Barloworld in Europe. It wasn't a small team.[/quote]

On the back of what he showed at the Commonwealths, people could see potential there.[/quote]
Err yeah, he had the potential to be a good rider for a team like Barloworld
That team apparently also saw potential in such great future champions as David Tanner, Carlo Scognamiglio and Michele Gaia[/quote]

Commonwealths was also where Brailsford first saw Froomes potential. Barloword also saw talent in Cummings, Thomas & Impey

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Re: Re:

So a smooth career progression to the top is required in the clinic. I struggle to find a rider with a smooth career progression who won the Tour de France and never got busted, so what is the point of this argument?

Not so much a smooth progression as clear signs of early talent. You can't be the greatest athlete in the last 25 years and not show any of that promise in your youth.

Exactly. I was arguing about this on twitter the other day. I said "his palmares before Vuelta 2011 was very average at best" but apparently coming 2nd in Giro del Capo at age 23 is a clear sign of massive talent.

2. KEN FROOME Chris BAR 01'41" 19
3. RSA JANSE VAN RENSBURG Jacques NEO 01'47" 15

Janse Van Rensburg must be doing something terribly wrong then

 

[samhocking]

Froome won Tour de France in year 3 at Sky, it wasn't exactly an overnight transformation and it's not like they just plucked him off the plane from Africa and said 'you'll do' either is it?

You're all arguing that proof of suspicion is rider transformation is to fast, yet nobody can say what is slow enough transformation. Either he has the ability to compete with the other Top 30 on PEDs or he doesn't and 3 years to get there seems believable to me regardless of comparing palamares to any of those Top 30 PEDs contenders.

 

[Tyr]

The vein argument is ridicolous. You guys really think you need a PED to have veins like that?
No one of you has ever trained either cycling or even in the gym? If you had you'd know that it all comes down to low bodyfat and you don't necessarily need a PED for that...

 

[gazr99]

Re:

Froome won Tour de France in year 3 at Sky, it wasn't exactly an overnight transformation and it's not like they just plucked him off the plane from Africa and said 'you'll do' either is it?

You're all arguing that proof of suspicion is rider transformation is to fast, yet nobody can say what is slow enough transformation. Either he has the ability to compete with the other Top 30 on PEDs or he doesn't and 3 years to get there seems believable to me regardless of comparing palamares to any of those Top 30 PEDs contenders.

By the looks of it according to the clinic if you're not seen a GT contender by the time you're 20, you shouldn't win one

 

[Franklin]

Re: Re:

I'm aware of that, but if your belief is the top 30 are on PEDs based on erroneous observations like less-than perfect palamares, vein bulginess, time gains or comparing todays peloton to that of cycling's past it seems like a belief based on the logic of a type of religion and not the evidence in front of you and I'm not comfortable when belief-alone is used to accuse someone of something they can't prove because it requires the evidence of absence, which is simply impossible.

Oh dear Sam, I think you are a little bit confused.
Just a few Facts:

1. Hiring a Doping doctor
2. Having a DS who is extremely friendly with the dope courier of Lance, just a few weeks before the TdF
3. Multiple blatant lies by manager on things concerning doping and transparency.
4. Lieing about wattages. Because, truly, the posted wattages can't be true...or they are falsely reporting Froomes weight.
5. Having performmances that in the past only have been possible with doping. Which combined with 4 really should get you angry at Sky instead of rejecting ssacience and going into fantasy modus,

Belief:

1. believing everything Dave Brailsford says even though they are clearly lies.

You are on the side of blind faiith and magical skyfairies, whereas the critics are solidly on the facts concluding it's almost certainly doping

You should understand that I'm really uncomfortable talking with someone who believes in magic and trusts the words of a proven patholoigical liar and can only reject facts as they hurt his hero-worship.

 

[gillan1969]

Re:

Froome won Tour de France in year 3 at Sky, it wasn't exactly an overnight transformation and it's not like they just plucked him off the plane from Africa and said 'you'll do' either is it?

You're all arguing that proof of suspicion is rider transformation is to fast, yet nobody can say what is slow enough transformation. Either he has the ability to compete with the other Top 30 on PEDs or he doesn't and 3 years to get there seems believable to me regardless of comparing palamares to any of those Top 30 PEDs contenders.

August '11 crap...September '11 best in world