Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[MacBAir]

Aren't you guys wasting your time here? If Merckx, or Hinault, or Anquetil or Lemond can be seen as great champions, why can't Froome, since he is a better athlete than any of those guys ever were?

What is Froome doing that Merckx didn't? What has Lance done that Merckx didn't? Why this unhealthy need to obliterate Froome and Lance, while praising the others?

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

I don't think Froome contested the sprint.

Froome wasn't after the win, he was after seconds over the GC riders. You could tell that by the way he looked back repeatedly and as he crossed the line. Sagan knew he would win and started to slacken off. Froome started a sprint to force Sagan to carry him over the line quicker. Froome also sprinted to ensure he took second place and the 6 second bonus.

I don't think what we just saw was anything extraordinary. It was several of the best riders in the world being at the front and exploiting a crosswind. The way Froome bridged wasn't incredible, it was an immediate reaction and he was all over the bike trying to get on.

Then look at the end result. Froome buried himself to get 15 seconds over Quintana. He got those 15 seconds because Quintana f*****d up big time.

Remember 2009? Similar thing happened between LA and AC. LA grabbed some seconds, but who won in the end...

Might have been worth it, but it isn't certain.

I think that's a bit simplistic. Quintana didn't really mess it up. He just didn't have anything like the power to bridge to two of the best cobbled riders in the world, a super TTist and (increduously) Froome. Even Kristoff couldn't get across the gap.

The question is how can Froome, a guy who is also the best climber and one of the best TTist in the world, bridge across to classics specialists, and then do more than his fair share of work to hold off a peloton full of sprint trains? He's skinny enough to take minutes on the field in a hard MTF, aero enough to beat the specialists in flat time trials, and powerful enough to drive a break through echelons. It's just ridiculous that this is now seen as a normal level for him.

This I agree, Quintana was exactly napping, Froome just motored off the front away from the charging peloton, fairly routine stuff for a 63kg rider who just lost the fat :lol:

 

[Saint Unix]

Re:

I would not be surprised if in a weeks time history judges this to have been a stupid move. On the other hand, did Froome actually have any other choice?

Why should Froome care if Sagan and Bodnar ride off on their own? Sky's only care in this race is the GC, and neither Sagan nor Bodnar have snowball's chance in Hell of threatening Froome there. Froome could have dropped down and let the sprint trains reel Sagan back in. No unnecessary energy wasting and no time gaps between the GC contenders.

It's possible that Froome thought the reward would be greater than the 12 seconds he got, or that he received reports that Quintana was at the back of the front group and a change of pace could have left him on the wrong side of a split.

I don't know... This is like Indurain all over again, but in the body of a stick figure that can climb like Pantani. Surreal.

 

[Rob27172]

Re:

I would not be surprised if in a weeks time history judges this to have been a stupid move. On the other hand, did Froome actually have any other choice?

Err yes

leave sagan to go off up the road as he is no threat to his jersey and not make every other rider in the front peleton look like a club rider out on a sunday pedal with their mates

Basically as I said previously the mutation into Lance mark 2 is now complete and we are back in the same situation where we have one team and one rider with the best backers and political clout to have the entire organisation in their back pockets

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

I would not be surprised if in a weeks time history judges this to have been a stupid move. On the other hand, did Froome actually have any other choice?

Tactically, I would have thought he'd be 7 to 10 riders back with at least two teammates. Stay out of the wind and stay out of trouble. A couple guys to help out if things go pear-shaped. He must have been really eager for those 12 seconds because Sagan wasn't going to take the yellow jersey today and there was a reasonable risk of getting caught in no-man's land and then losing a lot of time in the last few kilometers. Going anaerobic with the peloton going 60 km/hr means you might not finish with the main group today. If I was DS I might have sent Thomas to cover late breaks but that would have only been to hunt for stage wins.

John Swanson

 

[Rob27172]

Re: Re:

That is what I noticed about Froome. While typically a climber will attack his opponent from the behind him, Froome is confident enough to be riding on the very front, attack his opponents and simply ride them off of his wheel. He has this smug confidence that he seems to know that they either wont' be able to even hold his wheel or that if they do, they won't be able to after several more attacks. The element of surprise (and that immediate hoped for separation that often comes with it) doesn't come into play. It's like "I'm bored with this pedestrian pace so I'll see you gents after the finish".[/quote]


Exactly - he is a stick insect with more power than a big roleur and an ability to ITT against much bigger specialists
Mutant bordering on alien

 

[kwikki]

Quintana was already too far back when thd split happened.

It's Contador 2009 stage 3 again.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

'We've been working on catching other teams by surprise' - Sir Dave Brailsford tells Europsort

How does one work on catching other teams by surprise? :lol:

How about the fact that riding off the front doesn't involve any surprise. All you're doing is crushing everyone as they watch you ride away. Oh now I get it. Surprise! I'm putting out 321,800 Watts at FTP!

John Swanson

That is what I noticed about Froome. While typically a climber will attack his opponent from the behind him, Froome is confident enough to be riding on the very front, attack his opponents and simply ride them off of his wheel. He has this smug confidence that he seems to know that they either wont' be able to even hold his wheel or that if they do, they won't be able to after several more attacks. The element of surprise (and that immediate hoped for separation that often comes with it) doesn't come into play. It's like "I'm bored with this pedestrian pace so I'll see you gents after the finish".

Waaay back in my university days we used to do drills to practice this. We'd take turns were you would try to get away from the group. The drill was to be like 5 riders back and then slowly let a half bike length or even a bit more open up between you and the guy in front of you. Then to make your break, sprint at his back wheel and come around him. Swing wide and by time anyone up front notices what's going on you've got some speed built up and you're on the other side of the road. Before anyone can react you've got the gap. And the guy behind you might be able to react a bit quicker but he's got almost 2 bike lengths of gap to close just as everyone is accelerating.

John Swanson

 

[Angliru]

Re:

Aren't you guys wasting your time here? If Merckx, or Hinault, or Anquetil or Lemond can be seen as great champions, why can't Froome, since he is a better athlete than any of those guys ever were?

What is Froome doing that Merckx didn't? What has Lance done that Merckx didn't? Why this unhealthy need to obliterate Froome and Lance, while praising the others?

Are we obligated to you to mention every former champion in our posts when we express an opinion?

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

'We've been working on catching other teams by surprise' - Sir Dave Brailsford tells Europsort

How does one work on catching other teams by surprise? :lol:

How about the fact that riding off the front doesn't involve any surprise. All you're doing is crushing everyone as they watch you ride away. Oh now I get it. Surprise! I'm putting out 321,800 Watts at FTP!

John Swanson

That is what I noticed about Froome. While typically a climber will attack his opponent from the behind him, Froome is confident enough to be riding on the very front, attack his opponents and simply ride them off of his wheel. He has this smug confidence that he seems to know that they either wont' be able to even hold his wheel or that if they do, they won't be able to after several more attacks. The element of surprise (and that immediate hoped for separation that often comes with it) doesn't come into play. It's like "I'm bored with this pedestrian pace so I'll see you gents after the finish".

Waaay back in my university days we used to do drills to practice this. We'd take turns were you would try to get away from the group. The drill was to be like 5 riders back and then slowly let a half bike length or even a bit more open up between you and the guy in front of you. Then to make your break, sprint at his back wheel and come around him. Swing wide and by time anyone up front notices what's going on you've got some speed built up and you're on the other side of the road. Before anyone can react you've got the gap. And the guy behind you might be able to react a bit quicker but he's got almost 2 bike lengths of gap to close just as everyone is accelerating.

John Swanson

I used to do the exact same drill.

 

[Benotti69]

Some of the best riders in the world who drag the peloton as heads of sprint trains were there and they could do zilch.

 

[thehog]

Re:

Quintana was already too far back when thd split happened.

It's Contador 2009 stage 3 again.

Nah, 2009 was entire HTC team causing a spilt, it was nothing like today stage.

Lance Armstrong (Astana) was arguably the only overall favorite to benefit from the crosswind-inspired attack mounted by all nine riders in the Columbia-HTC team with 32km remaining of Monday's third stage of the Tour de France. Despite speculation from the pundits, the Astana team insists Armstrong's gains on Alberto Contador were not taken due to a power struggle within the team

 

[DFA123]

Re:

Aren't you guys wasting your time here? If Merckx, or Hinault, or Anquetil or Lemond can be seen as great champions, why can't Froome, since he is a better athlete than any of those guys ever were?

What is Froome doing that Merckx didn't? What has Lance done that Merckx didn't? Why this unhealthy need to obliterate Froome and Lance, while praising the others?

Have you actually ever seen any of those four race? Physiologically they are all completely different to Froome and they rode in an era where a strong rider could compete for and win all kinds of races. Froome is riding in an era of intense specialisation, with super domestiques, as Saint Unix said above,

is like Indurain all over again, but in the body of a stick figure that can climb like Pantani.

Merckx, Hinault, Anquetil and Lemond were all powerful riders who used their power to win races, even though there were better pure climbers in the race. Froome is the best pure climber, and one of the best time triallists, and now apparently a great rouleur and echelon specialist - despite having about 4% body fat and looking like a skeleton. It's genuinely absurd.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

'We've been working on catching other teams by surprise' - Sir Dave Brailsford tells Europsort

How does one work on catching other teams by surprise? :lol:

How about the fact that riding off the front doesn't involve any surprise. All you're doing is crushing everyone as they watch you ride away. Oh now I get it. Surprise! I'm putting out 321,800 Watts at FTP!

John Swanson

That is what I noticed about Froome. While typically a climber will attack his opponent from the behind him, Froome is confident enough to be riding on the very front, attack his opponents and simply ride them off of his wheel. He has this smug confidence that he seems to know that they either wont' be able to even hold his wheel or that if they do, they won't be able to after several more attacks. The element of surprise (and that immediate hoped for separation that often comes with it) doesn't come into play. It's like "I'm bored with this pedestrian pace so I'll see you gents after the finish".

Waaay back in my university days we used to do drills to practice this. We'd take turns were you would try to get away from the group. The drill was to be like 5 riders back and then slowly let a half bike length or even a bit more open up between you and the guy in front of you. Then to make your break, sprint at his back wheel and come around him. Swing wide and by time anyone up front notices what's going on you've got some speed built up and you're on the other side of the road. Before anyone can react you've got the gap. And the guy behind you might be able to react a bit quicker but he's got almost 2 bike lengths of gap to close just as everyone is accelerating.

John Swanson

Only Sky have not done this. Sagan went away and a team mate followed. A team mate left a gap. So Tinks were practicing this surprise move, not Sky? Froome jumped across the gap and GT dug deep and got across and even then big engined classics rider team pursuitist got dropped in final k!

Come on. I am criticising Brailsford for his BS and taking the credit for it.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Aren't you guys wasting your time here? If Merckx, or Hinault, or Anquetil or Lemond can be seen as great champions, why can't Froome, since he is a better athlete than any of those guys ever were?

What is Froome doing that Merckx didn't? What has Lance done that Merckx didn't? Why this unhealthy need to obliterate Froome and Lance, while praising the others?

Merckx, or Hinault and not seen as great champions in the clinic. Some will think of them as champions but you name 3 known dopers out of 4.

I am willing to see Froome as a doper. The others are not champions to me, so Froome wont be either. He rode real smart today. But that power is doped!

 

[42x16ss]

Get prepared for more comedy tomorrow everyone. I've been staying in Violès the last few days and rode to Ventoux this morning. It is currently windy as all F$&K here, a ripping SSW, so strong I was doing 50kmh coming home so easy that Mrs 42x16ss was keeping up no problem.

It's gonna be quick tomorrow!

 

[kwikki]

Re: Re:

Quintana was already too far back when thd split happened.

It's Contador 2009 stage 3 again.

Nah, 2009 was entire HTC team causing a spilt, it was nothing like today stage.

Lance Armstrong (Astana) was arguably the only overall favorite to benefit from the crosswind-inspired attack mounted by all nine riders in the Columbia-HTC team with 32km remaining of Monday's third stage of the Tour de France. Despite speculation from the pundits, the Astana team insists Armstrong's gains on Alberto Contador were not taken due to a power struggle within the team

Yeah...you are right. HTC weren't pulling today.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Quintana was already too far back when thd split happened.

It's Contador 2009 stage 3 again.

Nah, 2009 was entire HTC team causing a spilt, it was nothing like today stage.

Lance Armstrong (Astana) was arguably the only overall favorite to benefit from the crosswind-inspired attack mounted by all nine riders in the Columbia-HTC team with 32km remaining of Monday's third stage of the Tour de France. Despite speculation from the pundits, the Astana team insists Armstrong's gains on Alberto Contador were not taken due to a power struggle within the team

Yeah...you are right. HTC weren't pulling today.

Right, Froome and Thomas bridged all on their own when no one else could, agreed. The strength of 9 men! :surprised:

 

[Ramon Koran]

This incident is being way overblown, for starters Froome merely bridge a gap he didn't ride away from the field. Where are the suspicons about Sagan who the day after decimating half the breakaway manages to ride away form the entire peleton with a teammate? Secondly Froome is one of the best ttist on the planet it is normal that he can bridge acroos to sprinter sagan and bodnar. Thirdly froome was easily beaten by sagan in the sprint so once again the clinic is overeacting big time.

 

[kwikki]

Edit, moved from Froome data thread.

So what do you think Froome is doing to gain an advantage that any of the other really great riders aren't?

Surely, after 4 years since Sky have been successful the 'knowledge' has disseminated across and to other teams?

I am genuinely baffled. Beyond, having some sort of external advantage from the authorities I really can't see what it is that Sky could have that other teams couldn't, and by that I mean both pharmaceutical and mechanical doping. My own view is that the peloton is as dirty as ever, and Froome's story just doesn't add up, but I can't account for why.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re:

This incident is being way overblown, for starters Froome merely bridge a gap he didn't ride away from the field. Where are the suspicons about Sagan who the day after decimating half the breakaway manages to ride away form the entire peleton with a teammate? Secondly Froome is one of the best ttist on the planet it is normal that he can bridge acroos to sprinter sagan and bodnar. Thirdly froome was easily beaten by sagan in the sprint so once again the clinic is overeacting big time.

Being a good TTist and a good rouleur are two completely separate things. A good TTist relies on a long, continuous, constant aerobic effort. A good rouleur relies on some quick anaerobic efforts, followed by rest, followed by more anaerobic efforts in combination with longer aerobic efforts. The latter is something Froome had never demonstrated before this Tour, so it's perfectly reasonable to be surprised by it

 

[kwikki]

Really? What on earth do you think mountain attacks are?

Did you mean puncheur? Such as Sagan. A rouleur is a Jack of all trades.

 

[MartinGT]

Re:

This incident is being way overblown, for starters Froome merely bridge a gap he didn't ride away from the field. Where are the suspicons about Sagan who the day after decimating half the breakaway manages to ride away form the entire peleton with a teammate? Secondly Froome is one of the best ttist on the planet it is normal that he can bridge acroos to sprinter sagan and bodnar. Thirdly froome was easily beaten by sagan in the sprint so once again the clinic is overeacting big time.

He chased down Sagan whilst Cancellara couldnt bridge them.

Thats Sagan a power Classics rider and Cancellara not just a Classics Legend but multiple world TT champion who opn your theory should have closed the gap no worries.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

This incident is being way overblown, for starters Froome merely bridge a gap he didn't ride away from the field. Where are the suspicons about Sagan who the day after decimating half the breakaway manages to ride away form the entire peleton with a teammate? Secondly Froome is one of the best ttist on the planet it is normal that he can bridge acroos to sprinter sagan and bodnar. Thirdly froome was easily beaten by sagan in the sprint so once again the clinic is overeacting big time.

Only other rider to merely bridge that gap was was Sky rider Thomas. The rest were not able to merely bridge that gap.

 

[kwikki]

Re: Re:

This incident is being way overblown, for starters Froome merely bridge a gap he didn't ride away from the field. Where are the suspicons about Sagan who the day after decimating half the breakaway manages to ride away form the entire peleton with a teammate? Secondly Froome is one of the best ttist on the planet it is normal that he can bridge acroos to sprinter sagan and bodnar. Thirdly froome was easily beaten by sagan in the sprint so once again the clinic is overeacting big time.

He chased down Sagan whilst Cancellara couldnt bridge them.

Thats Sagan a power Classics rider and Cancellara not just a Classics Legend but multiple world TT champion who opn your theory should have closed the gap no worries.

Have a look to see who had been pulling on the front for about 5k before the break