Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[Winnats]

Re: Re:

so Froome had Bilharzia and Asthma...? Two things which do not fit:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/sep/05/research.health
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12743556
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16210901

It fits...but in an exactly opposite way from the way you want it to fit...

Read -

"Dr Fallon and colleagues experimented with laboratory mice genetically engineered with a tendency to asthma and anaphylaxis. They then infected the mice with schistosomes.

"These animals did not develop difficulty in breathing. The presence of the worms blocks pulmonary inflammation"

So, what do you think might happen if you then cured the said animal of the worms? (In the way Froome was cured of Bilharzia at a point in time before his 2 TUE were applied for.) Maybe an increased likelihood of developing an autoimmune response...ie. asthma?

So curing Froome of Bilharizia was more likely to make him have asthma.

Asthma susceptibility is also most often determined very early in life or in utero when the airways are developing. A single bout of Schisto later in life is not likely to fall into the category of the cohort persistently infected with parasites. Plus when dealing with an N=1, it is unwise to apply statistics to make a definitive point.

Ok, sorry. I thought at the time it was a mistake to put the final clarification sentence in, or in such simple terms. So it should have better read;

"So curing Froome of Bilharizia may have made it more likely that any asthma he may have been predisposed to but which had been suppressed by his Bilharzia, could become symptomatic and therefore require treatment"

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

No Sniper! This is too much! You're going soft on us! :lol: :lol:

Don't worry, it's just a phase I'm going through
But seriously, you did a good job, of which I was skeptical in the beginning and I leveled criticism at you, but you dealt with it head on. Kudos also for the nice reference in the Guardian article (as pointed out above by TourdeSardinia).

Like Franklin, me too I am sceptical about Froome being clean but I never thought of him as an evil guy, on the contrary.

I agree Wiggins comes out of this looking bad. A big shot of corticoids in the bum just before a GT that you aim to win? Whether justified or not, it doesn't look good.

Maybe Dave's account of Leinders being hired for saddle sore wasn't too far from the truth after all.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

Ok, sorry. I thought at the time it was a mistake to put the final clarification sentence in, or in such simple terms. So it should have better read;

"So curing Froome of Bilharizia may have made it more likely that any asthma he may have been predisposed to but which had been suppressed by his Bilharzia, could become symptomatic and therefore require treatment"

Agreed. I think that is a more accurate reflection of the situation.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Ok, sorry. I thought at the time it was a mistake to put the final clarification sentence in, or in such simple terms. So it should have better read;

"So curing Froome of Bilharizia may have made it more likely that any asthma he may have been predisposed to but which had been suppressed by his Bilharzia, could become symptomatic and therefore require treatment"

Agreed. I think that is a more accurate reflection of the situation.

Nope. Because Froome claimed after the TUE furore which he won Romandie is that he had asthma as a child. So his claims on the Bilharzia front dont add up, as he left out childhood asthma from his Biography written by Walsh.

So again, which is it? Childhood asthma that afflicted him, yet he tested as well as Hinault in 2007, yet no mention of asthma, then he didn't perform as a pro on Konica, Barloworld and Sky till 2011 and the excuse for that lack of performance was Bilharzia that cured his asthma and that he never mentioned is back. Where are the TUEs for asthma treatment (inc inhalers) on Konica, Barloworld and Sky prior to Bilharzia?

 

[JRanton]

Re: Re:

Year 2009 TUEs granted 239
Year 2010 TUEs granted 97
Year 2011 TUEs granted 56
Year 2012 TUEs granted 47
Year 2013 TUEs granted 30
Year 2014 TUEs granted 24
Year 2015 TUEs granted 13

Marginal gains by not-so marginal losses of TUEs granted for the competition?

Froome didn't have a TUE in 2015, nor has he in 2016. Better luck next time, guys.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

Nope. Because Froome claimed after the TUE furore which he won Romandie is that he had asthma as a child. So his claims on the Bilharzia front dont add up, as he left out childhood asthma from his Biography written by Walsh.

So again, which is it? Childhood asthma that afflicted him, yet he tested as well as Hinault in 2007, yet no mention of asthma, then he didn't perform as a pro on Konica, Barloworld and Sky till 2011 and the excuse for that lack of performance was Bilharzia that cured his asthma and that he never mentioned is back. Where are the TUEs for asthma treatment (inc inhalers) on Konica, Barloworld and Sky prior to Bilharzia?

I wasn't speaking about Froome specifically. I was making a generalization about the relationship between asthma and parasitic infections. I have heard different stories about whether he suffered asthma as a child or not. A parasitic infection in adulthood is not likely to reverse an existing case of asthma or allergy based on evidence from blinded scientific studies, but there are anecdotal examples of people who have claimed to be cured by this route FWIW.

 

[buckle]

Re: Re:

I agree Wiggins comes out of this looking bad. A big shot of corticoids in the bum just before a GT that you aim to win? Whether justified or not, it doesn't look good.

Anyone know about microdosing on corticoids?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I agree Wiggins comes out of this looking bad. A big shot of corticoids in the bum just before a GT that you aim to win? Whether justified or not, it doesn't look good.

Anyone know about microdosing on corticoids?

Wiggins got a big shot of corticoids in the bum just before a GT and yet Froome made him look 2nd rate at La Vuelta and TdF 2012. If Wiggins looks bad, Froome the most amazing transformation ever seen looks even more dodgier!

 

[buckle]

Re: Re:

I agree Wiggins comes out of this looking bad. A big shot of corticoids in the bum just before a GT that you aim to win? Whether justified or not, it doesn't look good.

Anyone know about microdosing on corticoids?

Wiggins got a big shot of corticoids in the bum just before a GT and yet Froome made him look 2nd rate at La Vuelta and TdF 2012. If Wiggins looks bad, Froome the most amazing transformation ever seen looks even more dodgier!

The suspicion is that he was on a course of them and continued usage up to the start of the Tour. The question I pose is can you microdose the hardcore stuff in the manner of EPO?

Swart must know already the logical problem of doubting BW who was second best to Froome in two successive GTs.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I agree Wiggins comes out of this looking bad. A big shot of corticoids in the bum just before a GT that you aim to win? Whether justified or not, it doesn't look good.

Anyone know about microdosing on corticoids?

Wiggins got a big shot of corticoids in the bum just before a GT and yet Froome made him look 2nd rate at La Vuelta and TdF 2012. If Wiggins looks bad, Froome the most amazing transformation ever seen looks even more dodgier!

The suspicion is that he was on a course of them and continued usage up to the start of the Tour. The question I pose is can you microdose the hardcore stuff in the manner of EPO?

Swart must know already the logical problem of doubting BW who was second best to Froome in two successive GTs.

I guess Wiggins was on a much large PED program. The cortiscoids was only part of it. He had TUEs for it. No need to microdose.

The testing is still way behind and the ADAs are not really about catching doping only stupid athletes.

 

[PremierAndrew]

One thing that should be pointed out is the fact that whatever Froome was on at PSM, it sure as hell wasn't covered legally by a TUE

 

[bigcog]

Re:

One thing that should be pointed out is the fact that whatever Froome was on at PSM, it sure as hell wasn't covered legally by a TUE

Big Wiggins fan are you ?

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

One thing that should be pointed out is the fact that whatever Froome was on at PSM, it sure as hell wasn't covered legally by a TUE

Big Wiggins fan are you ?

I'll let you judge for yourself using my posts in the wiggins and froome threads in the PRR section

 

[Barzini]

We all know that the problem stretches deeper than a few suspiciously timed TUEs......

The Machiavellian part of me thinks that this so called 'hack' is actually very clever misinformation - it gets everyone focusing on fairly innocent TUEs and bending of the rules as opposed to the full scale Universal Soldier doping program they obviously have Froome on

 

[AlbineVespuzzio]

Re:

We all know that the problem stretches deeper than a few suspiciously timed TUEs......

The Machiavellian part of me thinks that this so called 'hack' is actually very clever misinformation - it gets everyone focusing on fairly innocent TUEs and bending of the rules as opposed to the full scale Universal Soldier doping program they obviously have Froome on

you're being paranoid. it's useful information because it's undeniable evidence and demands answers. It opens the conversation which can go anywhere, depending on the evidence available.

I don't think the TUEs are innocent at all. In fact, before the fancy bears, I'd probably heard about the TUE's, but never thought deeply about them (probably assumed they made sense).
Now, thanks to the bears, my perspective has changed.

I've noticed also the same thing happening in some mainstream media. Questions are being posed that hadn't been before. Sir Bradley imminent downfall is just another indication.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I would like to point out that in the past I've always believed armstrong and us epostal were doping. same with mid 2000s csc that were ridiculous. and alot of smaller spanish cycling teams like kelme. I was always right. but now the doping is mostly gone. cycling is cleaner than ever and in the very rare occasion that I believe doping has occurred it is easily seen like aru in giro 2015 transfusion in final week. what makes me happy is that all the top riders are clean(ish) which is proven by the rise of colombian cycling similar to what happened in the 80s but is also proven by the fact riders sit dead on their bikes. especially towards end of a gt or a classic. one has to simply look back at videos of 20 years ago to see the difference. gt's are now being decided by marginal gaps instead of 10-12 minutes on podiums during the 90s and early 2000s

 

[Nomad]

Re:

I would like to point out that in the past I've always believed armstrong and us epostal were doping. same with mid 2000s csc that were ridiculous. and alot of smaller spanish cycling teams like kelme. I was always right. but now the doping is mostly gone. cycling is cleaner than ever and in the very rare occasion that I believe doping has occurred it is easily seen like aru in giro 2015 transfusion in final week. what makes me happy is that all the top riders are clean(ish) which is proven by the rise of colombian cycling similar to what happened in the 80s but is also proven by the fact riders sit dead on their bikes. especially towards end of a gt or a classic. one has to simply look back at videos of 20 years ago to see the difference. gt's are now being decided by marginal gaps instead of 10-12 minutes on podiums during the 90s and early 2000s

So...in the Giro he would be the "only" rider ever using a transfusion in the ABP era? No one else would ever think about it? Only he would be so bold to pull it off while the others just stood by and admired him? Also, how do you explain scientifically these GT contenders looking so strong on the climbs in the final week of the GTs? Studies have shown that a rider's Hb drops an average of ~15% during a GT due to PV expansion...riders should be struggling the final week, not setting high tempos and attacking. Some of these top GT contenders look like they're out on a recreational ride as they set high tempos on some of those final week climbs.

And since this is a Froome thread, how do you explain his magical 2011 transformation? IMO, that's the most ridiculous transformation in the history of cycling! That year in the Tour de Suisse he finishes 47th. A few months later at the Tour of Poland he finishes 85th. And a month after that at the Vuelta, he finishes 2nd by only 13 seconds to pure climber Juan Cobo. He also destroyed Denis Menchov (5th), who has a known history of O2-vector doping by over 3 1/2 mins. Froome demonstrated exceptional climbing ability never seen before in his career. Talk about an overnight sensation! (I'm astonished as to why so many Sky fans/worshipers don't see anything wrong with that picture).

Armstrong is mocked a lot about being a no GT-potential "donkey" turned TdF champion, but Froome's incredible improvement in such a short period of time has to be "thee" most remarkable transformation in the history of pro cycling.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

aru was guided by ferrari. I"m sure of that also him coming from palazzago team. so yes he was the only one. this year no more transfusions and help from ferrari and we've seen the real aru, one who fades in the third week. I'm sure that's why nibali hates him and there are 2 camps. the aru camp who try to reach for the boundaries of what is allowed and or not traced and nibali camp, who rides clean

 

[purcell]

Re: Re:

So you no longer doubt the statement that TUEs are on the increase? Progression.

You're joining dots again sniper, and once again getting the wrong answer. I made no comment about whether or not TUEs are increasing, I questioned you on what was interesting about a statistic which even you appear to be now admitting is utter nonsense. A question you appear unable to answer. Perhaps that could mean there was nothing interesting in it?

As to your comment, quoted below:

In any case it stands to reason that the number of tues has increased over time as the number of banned substances has increased too.

Reason is clearly one of your weak areas. It does not stand to reason. So let's park reason and go with cold, hard facts: the numbers. The UCI's numbers follow for you:

Year 2009 TUEs granted 239
Year 2010 TUEs granted 97
Year 2011 TUEs granted 56
Year 2012 TUEs granted 47
Year 2013 TUEs granted 30
Year 2014 TUEs granted 24
Year 2015 TUEs granted 13

In case you need it pointing out, those numbers are not increasing. They are in fact doing the opposite of increasing: decreasing. Disagree with them, please do. But do so with numbers, not bull crap.

That 2015 number for TUE's doesn't look like enough for Novo Nordisk, let alone anyone else.


Seems like nonsense to me.

 

[hrotha]

So only Aru used a transfusion, but it worked spectacularly well (since it was obvious, wasn't it?) and he didn't get caught.

Why, pray tell, would he be the only one then?

And why would Nibali, more than likely a Ferrari client himself, have a problem with Aru over that?

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

So you no longer doubt the statement that TUEs are on the increase? Progression.

You're joining dots again sniper, and once again getting the wrong answer. I made no comment about whether or not TUEs are increasing, I questioned you on what was interesting about a statistic which even you appear to be now admitting is utter nonsense. A question you appear unable to answer. Perhaps that could mean there was nothing interesting in it?

As to your comment, quoted below:

In any case it stands to reason that the number of tues has increased over time as the number of banned substances has increased too.

Reason is clearly one of your weak areas. It does not stand to reason. So let's park reason and go with cold, hard facts: the numbers. The UCI's numbers follow for you:

Year 2009 TUEs granted 239
Year 2010 TUEs granted 97
Year 2011 TUEs granted 56
Year 2012 TUEs granted 47
Year 2013 TUEs granted 30
Year 2014 TUEs granted 24
Year 2015 TUEs granted 13

In case you need it pointing out, those numbers are not increasing. They are in fact doing the opposite of increasing: decreasing. Disagree with them, please do. But do so with numbers, not bull crap.

That 2015 number for TUE's doesn't look like enough for Novo Nordisk, let alone anyone else.


Seems like nonsense to me.

Well if it seems like nonsense to you then it must be nonsense. Just tell me though, who would be the issuing body for Novo's TUE's? You are the self-appointed expert here.

 

[purcell]

Re:

I would like to point out that in the past I've always believed armstrong and us epostal were doping. same with mid 2000s csc that were ridiculous. and alot of smaller spanish cycling teams like kelme. I was always right. but now the doping is mostly gone. cycling is cleaner than ever and in the very rare occasion that I believe doping has occurred it is easily seen like aru in giro 2015 transfusion in final week. what makes me happy is that all the top riders are clean(ish) which is proven by the rise of colombian cycling similar to what happened in the 80s but is also proven by the fact riders sit dead on their bikes. especially towards end of a gt or a classic. one has to simply look back at videos of 20 years ago to see the difference. gt's are now being decided by marginal gaps instead of 10-12 minutes on podiums during the 90s and early 2000s

I suppose you believe in the Easter bunny too?

"Clean" cycling? That is funny.

 

[SeriousSam]

So let's review the evidence of all the top riders except Aru being cleanish presented by ryo:

Ryo the oracle correctly inferred that Armstrong and a few others were doped and Ryo the oracle now thinks riders are clean
Colombians are now doing well
Tighter margins these days

lol

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

So let's review the evidence of all the top riders except Aru being cleanish presented by ryo:

Ryo the oracle correctly inferred that Armstrong and a few others were doped and Ryo the oracle now thinks riders are clean
Colombians are now doing well
Tighter margins these days

lol

Don't forget "It's obvious"

 

[Benotti69]

Surprised Froome is not asking for his 2012 TdF win........