shades1 said:
I asked him why his instinct still carries weight but the instincts of his colleagues in the press room who groaned and booed at Froome's acceleration away from Contador don't. He didn't answer, just said he was disappointed.
I asked him why his instinct still carries weight but the instincts of his colleagues in the press room who groaned and booed at Froome's acceleration away from Contador don't. He didn't answer, just said he was disappointed.
i actually believe froome is cheating in some form but comparing times with armstrong 2002 seems weak to me.
how much extra weight in lance carrying in his bike and muscular arms? his and pantanis technique looks horrible beasting it out of the saddle for 15km. the high cadence in saddle style of the dawg looks far more sensible.
i dont think you can call foul on froome without also on quintana. i actually believe most of the 2nd group is on juice and fuglsang 400/1each way without froome was my 2nd best bet of the tour after astana's ridiculous giro performance.
how much extra weight in lance carrying in his bike and muscular arms? his and pantanis technique looks horrible beasting it out of the saddle for 15km. the high cadence in saddle style of the dawg looks far more sensible.
i dont think you can call foul on froome without also on quintana. i actually believe most of the 2nd group is on juice and fuglsang 400/1each way without froome was my 2nd best bet of the tour after astana's ridiculous giro performance.
- Oct 20, 2012
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No_Balls said:
I prefer to stop watching this parody of a race. If something seems so fake it is better not to participate to it at all, ( even as audience ) than growl all day long.
TdF has become like Superman movies. We watch impossible performances from most of the participants and we try to convince ourselves some in good faith, ( or they try to convince us) that these performances are real and possible.
If they were, why are not possible for everyday people then? The talented ones perhaps? The very skilled maybe? No... they are possible and exist only for these people ( pros), in these kind of races.
I feel that I have nothing in common with this people, I don't identify a part of my cycling self there and SciFi is not exactly the genre that I prefer. So no more TdF for me because it is obvious who is going to win in the end, ( Froomerman
- his other name is Clark Kent ).the sceptic said:
Quintana is like Sphinx apparently,thats pretty abnormal in my expierience.Froome is more like a fly.
- Sep 25, 2009
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i am suspicious but undecided on froome...will wait till the tour is over.
if he collapses in the last monstrous week (even once), many suspicious performances would acquire a different background.
if he continues the dominance over pure climbers like he did, i will put up a huge red flag.
if he collapses in the last monstrous week (even once), many suspicious performances would acquire a different background.
if he continues the dominance over pure climbers like he did, i will put up a huge red flag.
Lanark said:
That would be a good quetion for the former 7 times winner.
Lance.Would Froome Dawg have kicked your *** even when you were in your doping prime.
chipoleany said:
Lance used a high cadence like Froome around 100rpm. It's actually what he was known for.
I don't mean that they are not allowed to improve, far from. What I meant was the following:The Hitch said:
Given his performance in the past couple of years (and let's forget for a moment that he looks like he's coming out of nowhere) we can assume he would be at the top of the GC. But we also expected that from some other riders. (AC, Schleck, Evans, ...) The competition is absent and it are the riders who were considered for the top 10, but not the podium, who are up there with him. So now he has a 4 minute lead over Mollema and we say it's impossible. I believe that if he would have a 20 second lead over AC, lost on Ax3D from Schleck, ... the discussion about it being impossible would be less prominent (emphasizing "less prominent") than it is now. (Not saying there wouldn't be any discussion, of course.)
- May 11, 2013
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LaFlorecita said:
Mollema pulled back a 1:09 on stage 13 as well as some in top 10 including Contador. So Froome put 5:23 into Mollema in three stages. Maybe Mollema has the best ride of his life, maybe he's also on dope we don't know but all the other GC contenders, which are excepting Nibali the best available in cycling at the moment, are crushed. Without Froome TDF would have been a very exciting affair, he is at a completely different level, never seen since Armstrong (which, by the way, had a much stronger team). And what do you expect, 10 minutes plus? If he wants it he can do that easily.
- Apr 13, 2011
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Although we don't have actual power meter data, Basso has made a statement previously about sitting on the Sky train's wheel up climbs and how ridiculous the power out put is.
He said what are you going to do when you are sitting on Richie Porte's wheel putting down 425w? Try a hard attack for fun, only to blow up and fade right back to the group and be caught anyway.
So what can you do? Nothing, just sit in, and hang on for dear life was the jist of his comments.
This was from last year.
He didn't say they were doping, but this is coming from a guy who was a doper making comments about the ridiculous power and pace these guys could keep up the climbs, and nobody could do anything about it.
He said what are you going to do when you are sitting on Richie Porte's wheel putting down 425w? Try a hard attack for fun, only to blow up and fade right back to the group and be caught anyway.
So what can you do? Nothing, just sit in, and hang on for dear life was the jist of his comments.
This was from last year.
He didn't say they were doping, but this is coming from a guy who was a doper making comments about the ridiculous power and pace these guys could keep up the climbs, and nobody could do anything about it.
- May 11, 2013
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zigmeister said:
I remember that. This year Richie dropped everybody on Ax3 and on Ventoux only Contador was left to be massacred by Vroom.
The difference being that Porte isn't doing anything all day, saving himself to produce those watts for a brief amount of time. After his effort is done he fade's away while GC riders indeed have to try to hang on so they last longer. Like we saw from Kennaugh on the Ventoux, pushing pushing pushing followed by an almost complete stop. Everybody can do that, so we must put some nuance on Basso's words.zigmeister said:
- Jan 16, 2010
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alitogata said:I prefer to stop watching this parody of a race. If something seems so fake it is better not to participate to it at all, ( even as audience ) than growl all day long.
TdF has become like Superman movies. We watch impossible performances from most of the participants and we try to convince ourselves some in good faith, ( or they try to convince us) that these performances are real and possible.
If they were, why are not possible for everyday people then? The talented ones perhaps? The very skilled maybe? No... they are possible and exist only for these people ( pros), in these kind of races.
I feel that I have nothing in common with this people, I don't identify a part of my cycling self there and SciFi is not exactly the genre that I prefer. So no more TdF for me because it is obvious who is going to win in the end, ( Froomerman
No need to stop watching, my friend. Just view it as a comedy, a kind of tragi-farce. That's what I do!
Pro cycling is not to be taken seriously.
They're not better, every team will use that tactic as it's the only one. If Sky wasn't the controlling team but Saxo was, we would probably see Kreuziger doing that work, producing similar watts. Or Quintana doing it for Valverde.lemoogle said:
edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LxY3oEO5CrY#t=91s Here we see Agnoli doing the same for Nibali in this year's Giro. If we were to ask any of the other riders in that group they would probably say something similar to what Basso said. That doesn't necessarily means they accuse them of doping.
Thoughts on Froome/Sky from a new UK poster and long time lurker
Hi, I've been a long time viewer of the forums and especially the clinic, mainly due to the LA affair and following reading books from T Hamilton and D Walsh amongst others.
This is my first post, forgive me if I veer off topic but I want to provide a little context and brief background.. I am from the UK, a former sports journalist and now keen cyclist and although I followed the TDF many years ago (maybe around early 90s to early 00s), interest was renewed only after the sudden emergence of Team Sky, continued success of British Cycling and my own cycling.
I have been growing ever more suspicious of the above's success, not just because it has been a relatively new phenomenon in a sport the UK is not culturally and historically associated with as strongly as many other countries but also because of the build-up and planning to London 2012 and the expected returns (financially and emotionally) from all the investment.
This investment in an Olympics and a bizarre need for medals in kind has proven over and over to result in doping programs, most often, right from the very top. We in the UK love to point fingers at foreigners and find it much easier to believe that other nations don't play by the same rules as we upstanding plucky losers do, well the truth is very different. The UK is under the same and maybe even more pressure to succeed and are susceptible to all the temptations and short-cuts.
Sky/Wiggins
Wiggins was clearly a very talented bike rider. He then clearly wanted to become a legend and adapted his skills to the road and ultimately the TDF.
It would be naïve to think that transition could be done as quickly and successfully without pushing every boundary to the limit.
It has been accepted by almost everyone involved in pro cycling that to reach and remain at the top, or at least at a level considered to be successful during the last 20 years (in the evolved professional sporting world), riders HAD to enhance their natural ability with some or all the available doping products and methods.
This, I believe to be undeniable. If anyone reading this forum disagrees with that statement then I would urge you to look at the evidence, much of which is documented in this very place.
Is it realistic to then fly through and dominate the sport... BC on the track, now Sky on the road without breaking through those same boundaries, even with more scientific understanding, financial clout, cloak of respectability.
Stand up, Sir David of Brailsford.
Ok, enough waffle.
Froome.
I am British. I'm not particularly patriotic and believe in things on their own merit. Was I proud when Wiggins won the TDF and Olympics last year?
Not really. Why? Read further above.
Clearly obvious to me as an intelligent and balanced person (I hope) that to reach the top in any sport; you need an edge. Sometimes, the very best do have an obvious physical advantage.. the extra special technique and belief to take them to the top.
e.g. Federer. e.g. Woods (Now, I am not saying that these two have never taken PEDS. My gut says not but maybe but I do still believe the natural talent and desire of these two means they would dominate their sport with or without)
Cycling I think is different. Technique is important yes, but physical capability and endurance is massive and this is the area where doping has been proven beyond reasonable doubt to absolutely transform performance to the point of "don't bother turning up unless you are properly juiced".
People say, oh its cleaner now. Since when? Since when the next batch of undetectable PEDS came out?
Since when 1 or 2 teams made a genuine effort to be clean teams.
By the way, how are Garmin doing in this year's TDF?
I believe it is cleaner by 1 or 2 teams max. That's it. Look at the lessons of life, do old dogs learn new tricks? No! Only new shortcuts!
My educated guess is that 5-20 years ago, 95% of the TDF field were on dope, as recently as 3 years ago 90% of the TDF field were on dope.
Last year I believe that 85% of the field were doping.
This year I think that at least 80% of the field are doping.
Now, taking into account all the red flags about Froome -
- the 'convenient' bilzaria
- the rise from nowhere
- the drastically improved results
- issues with his build/health/riding style
Combine that with the reality of what has to be done to even compete at the top of the most iconic and important event in the sport -
- i.e. Doping is compulsory (Hey, even Lance finally said so)
Now, combine that with what we have seen from Froome this year -
- utterly dominant in the mountains
- another gear entirely to the best climbers
- still seems/acts well within himself - very likely even more available in the tank if required
- also a monster in the ITT - even massive dopers like Indurain weren't as dually 'gifted'. This is a huge red flag with his build.
In fact, the 4+ minute lead he has built could have been much, much larger if the team so wished. In fact, Sky's problems have probably kept the big lead down to a minimum. I think they will probably cruise it now, might lose a bit here and there but offset it on the ITT and Alpe.
They will stick to a script and try and keep it within the realms of believability (for the average sports fan and naïve/non-questioning types).
However, as far as I am concerned. The game is up.
1) Froome is very, very dirty - one of the most doped riders in the history of cycling.
2) Sky and BC are possibly the source of the dirt but at the very least are dirty by association.
I am actually ashamed to be British because this weird in-built thing of "oh we're british, so we must be clean" is quite clearly bull~hit, does not stack up when given the evidence and is quite frankly arrogant and ignorant.
I have a strange feeling that something big is going to happen before the end of this TDF.
I think someone in the race may make a stand. I don't think he will get popped but in my gut, I think there is a chance that the massively dominant Chris Froome may not win the 2013 TDF.
Hi, I've been a long time viewer of the forums and especially the clinic, mainly due to the LA affair and following reading books from T Hamilton and D Walsh amongst others.
This is my first post, forgive me if I veer off topic but I want to provide a little context and brief background.. I am from the UK, a former sports journalist and now keen cyclist and although I followed the TDF many years ago (maybe around early 90s to early 00s), interest was renewed only after the sudden emergence of Team Sky, continued success of British Cycling and my own cycling.
I have been growing ever more suspicious of the above's success, not just because it has been a relatively new phenomenon in a sport the UK is not culturally and historically associated with as strongly as many other countries but also because of the build-up and planning to London 2012 and the expected returns (financially and emotionally) from all the investment.
This investment in an Olympics and a bizarre need for medals in kind has proven over and over to result in doping programs, most often, right from the very top. We in the UK love to point fingers at foreigners and find it much easier to believe that other nations don't play by the same rules as we upstanding plucky losers do, well the truth is very different. The UK is under the same and maybe even more pressure to succeed and are susceptible to all the temptations and short-cuts.
Sky/Wiggins
Wiggins was clearly a very talented bike rider. He then clearly wanted to become a legend and adapted his skills to the road and ultimately the TDF.
It would be naïve to think that transition could be done as quickly and successfully without pushing every boundary to the limit.
It has been accepted by almost everyone involved in pro cycling that to reach and remain at the top, or at least at a level considered to be successful during the last 20 years (in the evolved professional sporting world), riders HAD to enhance their natural ability with some or all the available doping products and methods.
This, I believe to be undeniable. If anyone reading this forum disagrees with that statement then I would urge you to look at the evidence, much of which is documented in this very place.
Is it realistic to then fly through and dominate the sport... BC on the track, now Sky on the road without breaking through those same boundaries, even with more scientific understanding, financial clout, cloak of respectability.
Stand up, Sir David of Brailsford.
Ok, enough waffle.
Froome.
I am British. I'm not particularly patriotic and believe in things on their own merit. Was I proud when Wiggins won the TDF and Olympics last year?
Not really. Why? Read further above.
Clearly obvious to me as an intelligent and balanced person (I hope) that to reach the top in any sport; you need an edge. Sometimes, the very best do have an obvious physical advantage.. the extra special technique and belief to take them to the top.
e.g. Federer. e.g. Woods (Now, I am not saying that these two have never taken PEDS. My gut says not but maybe but I do still believe the natural talent and desire of these two means they would dominate their sport with or without)
Cycling I think is different. Technique is important yes, but physical capability and endurance is massive and this is the area where doping has been proven beyond reasonable doubt to absolutely transform performance to the point of "don't bother turning up unless you are properly juiced".
People say, oh its cleaner now. Since when? Since when the next batch of undetectable PEDS came out?
Since when 1 or 2 teams made a genuine effort to be clean teams.
By the way, how are Garmin doing in this year's TDF?
I believe it is cleaner by 1 or 2 teams max. That's it. Look at the lessons of life, do old dogs learn new tricks? No! Only new shortcuts!
My educated guess is that 5-20 years ago, 95% of the TDF field were on dope, as recently as 3 years ago 90% of the TDF field were on dope.
Last year I believe that 85% of the field were doping.
This year I think that at least 80% of the field are doping.
Now, taking into account all the red flags about Froome -
- the 'convenient' bilzaria
- the rise from nowhere
- the drastically improved results
- issues with his build/health/riding style
Combine that with the reality of what has to be done to even compete at the top of the most iconic and important event in the sport -
- i.e. Doping is compulsory (Hey, even Lance finally said so)
Now, combine that with what we have seen from Froome this year -
- utterly dominant in the mountains
- another gear entirely to the best climbers
- still seems/acts well within himself - very likely even more available in the tank if required
- also a monster in the ITT - even massive dopers like Indurain weren't as dually 'gifted'. This is a huge red flag with his build.
In fact, the 4+ minute lead he has built could have been much, much larger if the team so wished. In fact, Sky's problems have probably kept the big lead down to a minimum. I think they will probably cruise it now, might lose a bit here and there but offset it on the ITT and Alpe.
They will stick to a script and try and keep it within the realms of believability (for the average sports fan and naïve/non-questioning types).
However, as far as I am concerned. The game is up.
1) Froome is very, very dirty - one of the most doped riders in the history of cycling.
2) Sky and BC are possibly the source of the dirt but at the very least are dirty by association.
I am actually ashamed to be British because this weird in-built thing of "oh we're british, so we must be clean" is quite clearly bull~hit, does not stack up when given the evidence and is quite frankly arrogant and ignorant.
I have a strange feeling that something big is going to happen before the end of this TDF.
I think someone in the race may make a stand. I don't think he will get popped but in my gut, I think there is a chance that the massively dominant Chris Froome may not win the 2013 TDF.
Just realised that Hog wrote something similar. The thread is very hard to keep up with. I actually guessed the ~47km/h based on some of the stats I heard during the first 3 hours of the race.ChewbaccaD said:
- May 13, 2009
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the sceptic said:
No, Einstein doped, which makes a huge dent in the whole concept of relativity. It's a blow to modern physics and we'll have to rethink everythink from atomic weapons to particle accelerators.
- Apr 13, 2011
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tyfius said:
Right, up the climbs they are doing this. Porte has shown he can do this for sustained periods. When he goes full ***, like the other day, he then goes right up to 450-475w likely for a shorter period, kills everybody off, including himself, except Froome amazingly, and drops by the wayside and tries to recover and let Froome do the rest.
Somehow, Porte will recover at a high wattage though, and still hold a respectable pace after the insane work he did for the previous 5-10 minutes. Which is odd enough. Most guys after doing that kind of effort, will implode and almost come to a stop on the mountain. Not Porte, he just drops down and does some amazing 375w recovery pace...yeah right.
This is stupid ridiculous. Hence why the suspicion on Sky, because, this is a Froome thread, and the point being, Froome then attacks after this ridiculous pace even harder and with higher output for longer periods than what Porte just did to kill the entire field of climbers.
Suspicious is right.
Article from last year: http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/07/news/basso-its-useless-to-try-to-stop-sky_230769
“Look. It’s the same discussion as always, it’s like watching the Tour when Lance [Armstrong] or [Miguel] Indurain raced. You could try to attack, get ahead, but then what are you going to do? Just to have a laugh?” Basso said, sitting on the steps of the team bus.
“If he [Wiggins] goes as they have been, where Richie Porte is pulling and you are on the wheel pushing 420 watts, then explain to me, where are you going to go?"
LeMond made some statements previously about how he could do something like 410w for upwards of an hour at the start of the Tour. But only like 390w nearing the end. So, 2 weeks into the Tour, and Richie and Froome are putting out 425w+ for 30 minutes, and 450w for 5-10minutes or something ridiculous it is estimated. Impressive indeed!!
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