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Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

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May 27, 2012
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Bratam said:
Just realised that Hog wrote something similar. The thread is very hard to keep up with. I actually guessed the ~47km/h based on some of the stats I heard during the first 3 hours of the race.

No, that wasn't the joke. The joke is that you quoted yourself, and the hog is famous for doing the same thing, and many times, when he quotes himself, his response to himself is "Good post hog." It's one of the reasons she is so endearing to us regulars.
 
kaffenback said:
Hi, I've been a long time viewer of the forums and especially the clinic, mainly due to the LA affair and following reading books from T Hamilton and D Walsh amongst others.

This is my first post, forgive me if I veer off topic but I want to provide a little context and brief background.. I am from the UK, a former sports journalist and now keen cyclist and although I followed the TDF many years ago (maybe around early 90s to early 00s), interest was renewed only after the sudden emergence of Team Sky, continued success of British Cycling and my own cycling.

I have been growing ever more suspicious of the above's success, not just because it has been a relatively new phenomenon in a sport the UK is not culturally and historically associated with as strongly as many other countries but also because of the build-up and planning to London 2012 and the expected returns (financially and emotionally) from all the investment.
This investment in an Olympics and a bizarre need for medals in kind has proven over and over to result in doping programs, most often, right from the very top. We in the UK love to point fingers at foreigners and find it much easier to believe that other nations don't play by the same rules as we upstanding plucky losers do, well the truth is very different. The UK is under the same and maybe even more pressure to succeed and are susceptible to all the temptations and short-cuts.

Sky/Wiggins
Wiggins was clearly a very talented bike rider. He then clearly wanted to become a legend and adapted his skills to the road and ultimately the TDF.
It would be naïve to think that transition could be done as quickly and successfully without pushing every boundary to the limit.
It has been accepted by almost everyone involved in pro cycling that to reach and remain at the top, or at least at a level considered to be successful during the last 20 years (in the evolved professional sporting world), riders HAD to enhance their natural ability with some or all the available doping products and methods.
This, I believe to be undeniable. If anyone reading this forum disagrees with that statement then I would urge you to look at the evidence, much of which is documented in this very place.
Is it realistic to then fly through and dominate the sport... BC on the track, now Sky on the road without breaking through those same boundaries, even with more scientific understanding, financial clout, cloak of respectability.
Stand up, Sir David of Brailsford.

Ok, enough waffle.
Froome.

I am British. I'm not particularly patriotic and believe in things on their own merit. Was I proud when Wiggins won the TDF and Olympics last year?
Not really. Why? Read further above.
Clearly obvious to me as an intelligent and balanced person (I hope) that to reach the top in any sport; you need an edge. Sometimes, the very best do have an obvious physical advantage.. the extra special technique and belief to take them to the top.
e.g. Federer. e.g. Woods (Now, I am not saying that these two have never taken PEDS. My gut says not but maybe but I do still believe the natural talent and desire of these two means they would dominate their sport with or without)
Cycling I think is different. Technique is important yes, but physical capability and endurance is massive and this is the area where doping has been proven beyond reasonable doubt to absolutely transform performance to the point of "don't bother turning up unless you are properly juiced".

People say, oh its cleaner now. Since when? Since when the next batch of undetectable PEDS came out?
Since when 1 or 2 teams made a genuine effort to be clean teams.
By the way, how are Garmin doing in this year's TDF?
I believe it is cleaner by 1 or 2 teams max. That's it. Look at the lessons of life, do old dogs learn new tricks? No! Only new shortcuts!
My educated guess is that 5-20 years ago, 95% of the TDF field were on dope, as recently as 3 years ago 90% of the TDF field were on dope.
Last year I believe that 85% of the field were doping.
This year I think that at least 80% of the field are doping.

Now, taking into account all the red flags about Froome -
- the 'convenient' bilzaria
- the rise from nowhere
- the drastically improved results
- issues with his build/health/riding style

Combine that with the reality of what has to be done to even compete at the top of the most iconic and important event in the sport -
- i.e. Doping is compulsory (Hey, even Lance finally said so)

Now, combine that with what we have seen from Froome this year -
- utterly dominant in the mountains
- another gear entirely to the best climbers
- still seems/acts well within himself - very likely even more available in the tank if required
- also a monster in the ITT - even massive dopers like Indurain weren't as dually 'gifted'. This is a huge red flag with his build.

In fact, the 4+ minute lead he has built could have been much, much larger if the team so wished. In fact, Sky's problems have probably kept the big lead down to a minimum. I think they will probably cruise it now, might lose a bit here and there but offset it on the ITT and Alpe.
They will stick to a script and try and keep it within the realms of believability (for the average sports fan and naïve/non-questioning types).

However, as far as I am concerned. The game is up.

1) Froome is very, very dirty - one of the most doped riders in the history of cycling.

2) Sky and BC are possibly the source of the dirt but at the very least are dirty by association.

I am actually ashamed to be British because this weird in-built thing of "oh we're british, so we must be clean" is quite clearly bull~hit, does not stack up when given the evidence and is quite frankly arrogant and ignorant.

I have a strange feeling that something big is going to happen before the end of this TDF.
I think someone in the race may make a stand. I don't think he will get popped but in my gut, I think there is a chance that the massively dominant Chris Froome may not win the 2013 TDF.

hope this doesn't get lost in all the smaller digressions. One of the best summaries we've had of the situation in all the 50 000 or so posts that have graced the sky topics since last July.
 
Jul 14, 2012
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kaffenback said:
Now, combine that with what we have seen from Froome this year -
- utterly dominant in the mountains
- another gear entirely to the best climbers
- still seems/acts well within himself - very likely even more available in the tank if required
- also a monster in the ITT - even massive dopers like Indurain weren't as dually 'gifted'. This is a huge red flag with his build.

In fact, the 4+ minute lead he has built could have been much, much larger if the team so wished. In fact, Sky's problems have probably kept the big lead down to a minimum. I think they will probably cruise it now, might lose a bit here and there but offset it on the ITT and Alpe.
They will stick to a script and try and keep it within the realms of believability (for the average sports fan and naïve/non-questioning types).

However, as far as I am concerned. The game is up.

1) Froome is very, very dirty - one of the most doped riders in the history of cycling.

2) Sky and BC are possibly the source of the dirt but at the very least are dirty by association.

I am actually ashamed to be British because this weird in-built thing of "oh we're british, so we must be clean" is quite clearly bull~hit, does not stack up when given the evidence and is quite frankly arrogant and ignorant.

I have a strange feeling that something big is going to happen before the end of this TDF.
I think someone in the race may make a stand. I don't think he will get popped but in my gut, I think there is a chance that the massively dominant Chris Froome may not win the 2013 TDF.
Interesting post. No doubt Froome is doping alright. Same goes for Mr Porte as well.

I have been reading some news articles from the British Press about Froome and the Sky Team. The Brits don't even seem to question the validity of Froome/Sky's results. I guess it must be easy for Brailsford to fool the local Brit supporters. He has been doing it for a few years now and no one seems to pull him up for his mistruths and lies.

I guess the other thing that worries me about the Brits is their new found addition to Gold medals at the Olympics. Only 10 years ago they would get a small fraction of the medals that Germany or even Australia would get. Now they are suddenly up there with the Americans and Chinese in the medal counts. I know they started spending more money on their sports a few years back, but I still have strong suspicions that doping has been a major part of the success.
 
Jul 11, 2013
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Mr.38% said:
Frei re advanced training methods. I do this "advanced" stuff since ca. 2003 when my former coach had a session on the Büttgen track with Uli Schoberer who came back from Tuscany where he did some tests together with Checchini. Basso reportedly was doing insane amounts of 40/20 up to 8x10' over 6hours.

Thomas Frei‏@thomasfrei1h
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jul/15/team-sky-chris-froome-tour-de-france … nothing new about those intervalls. 30"/30",40"/20",20"/40" etc. ! #Fact


I can't believe SKY are revealing their secrets. This Guardian article tells us that they have a dietician:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jul/14/tour-de-france-team-sky-dietician

Gee, wait till the other teams find out that training and diet can help them win the Tour.
 
Bratam said:
Interesting post. No doubt Froome is doping alright. Same goes for Mr Porte as well.

I have been reading some news articles from the British Press about Froome and the Sky Team. The Brits don't even seem to question the validity of Froome/Sky's results. I guess it must be easy for Brailsford to fool the local Brit supporters. He has been doing it for a few years now and no one seems to pull him up for his mistruths and lies.

I guess the other thing that worries me about the Brits is their new found addition to Gold medals at the Olympics. Only 10 years ago they would get a small fraction of the medals that Germany or even Australia would get. Now they are suddenly up there with the Americans and Chinese in the medal counts. I know they started spending more money on their sports a few years back, but I still have strong suspicions that doping has been a major part of the success.

Perhaps you aren't looking in the right places.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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Bratam said:
Interesting post. I have been reading some news articles from the British Press about Froome and The Sky Team and the Brits don't even seem to question the validity of Froome/Sky's results. I guess it must be easy for Brailsford to fool the local Brit supporters. He has been doing it for a few years now and no one seems to pull him up for his mistrusts and lies.

I guess the other thing that worries me about the Brits is their new found addition to Gold medals at the Olympics. Only 10 years ago they would get a small fraction of the medals that Germany or even Australia would get. Now they are suddenly up there with the Americans and Chinese in the medal counts. I know they started spending more money on their sports a few years back, but I still have strong suspicions that doping has been a major part of the success.

It's not just the British public, most Joe public are clueless with regards to drugs in sport. UK, US, China, Jamaica, Australia etc it doesn't matter, the general public like to believe their lot are clean and are always up in arms if their lot get accused of doping. Doping in sport is huge business with huge sums of money funding it. No sport sees it as beneficial to bust dopers if it means loosing fans and more importantly costing them financially.

Drug testing at this TDF may as well be non-existent as it's obviously not effective and the question for me is, is it not effective because the science isn't capable of catching the cheats or is it not effective by design so there are no controversies and the money keeps flowing and the big wigs keep their pockets lined?
 
Chaddy said:
Perhaps you aren't looking in the right places.

Please show us where? I live in the UK and all i see is a normalization of his results ("Froome extends lead") like it's nothing.

It was only last year than any major UK newspaper was deleting any questions about Wiggo's and sky's performances in the comments section.
I haven't even bothered to check this year.
 
lemoogle said:
Please show us where? I live in the UK and all i see is a normalization of his results ("Froome extends lead") like it's nothing.

It was only last year than any major UK newspaper was deleting any questions about Wiggo's and sky's performances in the comments section.
I haven't even bothered to check this year.

Just because the papers aren't ranting and raving like some of the nutters on here doesn't mean it isn't getting mentioned. talkSPORT, a radio station that talks about football 24hours a day have talked about Froome, usually questioning a sports journalist at the tour or a cycling author about some of the questions Froome and Sir Dave are facing.
 
lemoogle said:
Please show us where? I live in the UK and all i see is a normalization of his results ("Froome extends lead") like it's nothing.

It was only last year than any major UK newspaper was deleting any questions about Wiggo's and sky's performances in the comments section.
I haven't even bothered to check this year.

It's a,so when Brailsford speaks. He dumbs it down for the given audience.

Agree on articles. Generally it's "Froome extends lead at Tour de France". Whereas the French might use an adjective to describe the "unusual" performance.

In saying all that when watching the Ventoux stage I cannot see how anyone can draw any other conclusion than its an "aided" ride. I cannot see how even a newbie would look at that and say its drug free.
 
Chaddy said:
Just because the papers aren't ranting and raving like some of the nutters on here doesn't mean it isn't getting mentioned. talkSPORT, a radio station that talks about football 24hours a day have talked about Froome, usually questioning a sports journalist at the tour or a cycling author about some of the questions Froome and Sir Dave are facing.

Noone is saying UK papers should "rant" like on the clinic ( I'll use your words ).
But if you read any other country's news they talk about the suspicion and the doubts a lot more.

A single radio station that as you say talks mainly about football does not represent a main source of information about the tour.... Hope you realise that... What we're saying here is that mainstream UK media is oblivious to any of the doping talk.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jul/15/team-sky-chris-froome-tour-de-france

"There is a significant increase [in drag] when you attack out of the saddle compared to staying seated and keeping your body narrow. If you can [attack] as well in the saddle [as standing] you will get more speed for the same power because there is less drag. It's while you are accelerating that drag is more important, so if you accelerate in a streamlined position, you get up to your speed more efficiently."

Big Mig agrees:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tFM7wcMiPdI#t=3146s

These guys are funny, real scientific those training schedules of Luigi Cecchini. Lolz.

Attacking from out of the saddle means just one thing: an exessive amount of EXTRA power in your legs.
 
thehog said:
It's a,so when Brailsford speaks. He dumbs it down for the given audience.

Agree on articles. Generally it's "Froome extends lead at Tour de France". Whereas the French might use an adjective to describe the "unusual" performance.

In saying all that when watching the Ventoux stage I cannot see how anyone can draw any other conclusion than its an "aided" ride. I cannot see how even a newbie would look at that and say its drug free.

Most people in the UK I talk to , even the ones that call themselves fans of the sport , only watch highlights or when they do watch it live , the commentary does not reflect how abnormal some of what they see is. Also it doesn't help that the commentary is always commenting about how "sky is in trouble now" etc etc, when that's pretty much BS.
 
Jun 19, 2012
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all i will say on this subject is that if the day ever comes that SKY have been a mass doping program i will NEVER watch cycling again . the LA era was bad enough and it took me a long time before i would give the sport a second chance .

iv wanted to believe that since then the sport has been clean but after spending some time in this part of the forum and reading and educating myself about a subject i knew very little about i am now starting to get a little worried that another explosion is not too far away .

if this explosion happens im not too sure cycling will survive a second time around , at best it will just become a circus act to be laughed at , all the sponsors will run for there lives this time and they wont be coming back !!
 
lemoogle said:
Most people in the UK I talk to , even the ones that call themselves fans of the sport , only watch highlights or when they do watch it live , the commentary does not reflect how abnormal some of what they see is. Also it doesn't help that the commentary is always commenting about how "sky is in trouble now" etc etc, when that's pretty much BS.

Many of them are probably new to the sport and does not know what to look at. There goes the difference between the battlehardened european crowd who has been down this part before.

Heinz and Pat are always keen to sell cycling which was previously not that huge before in that specific country and this creates newcomers who are as dumb as sheeps. And when the newspaper, Skyboys, commentators are wrapping themselves in the flag. Well.
 
Jul 15, 2013
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The Hitch said:
hope this doesn't get lost in all the smaller digressions. One of the best summaries we've had of the situation in all the 50 000 or so posts that have graced the sky topics since last July.

Thanks Hitch. I felt after reading so many other's well intentioned and passionate views that I should share mine too.

I love sport and I am an idealist so I want to watch fair competition, otherwise its just another form of WWE. Being such a growing sport in the UK, I would love to see cycling really clean up its act and being a force for good - health, fitness, competition etc. but when the very top of the sport has been and still is so dirty and clouded in suspicion and the new 'forces for change' such as Sky are now dominant and acting defensively, it doesn't look good. Its incredibly sad actually.
Testing bodies needs to react to the new methods ASAP, Froome needs to be busted and then, maybe, just maybe, with a new head of UCI and some proper truth and reconciliation action instead of just talk, it could be the real line in the sand moment the sport needs.

I am sceptical though because sport as a whole has a huge problem in today's world with so much money at stake and so much incredible technology available. The whole scientific development side has been/is taking over and ultimately, many years down the road, doping to some degree may well be accepted and allowed as its too potentially huge an industry to hold back forever.

Many of us love the romance of sport but the love affair is almost dead now for those who only believe in the real thing. So much of what we see is not truly real. The media do a heck of a job maintaining the pretence and for the most part, not even entering into a debate.
Far too many pay packets at stake in all areas of the industry for this.
I've worked in sport as a professional sportsman, as a sports business owner and in the media and I know how it works inside-out. It is a very dishonest and cut-throat world and becoming more so every year. Sport was an escape from the harsher realities of the world to some extent but sadly, no more.
Ultimately, its why I left the industry because in the end it did not sit well with me and I wanted to lead a simpler and more truthful existence.

Maybe spending time in The Clinic is not healthy!! But at least there are some like-minded souls who want to see some morality and honesty in the world of cycling and sport in general. I think they call it pis~ing against the wind! ;)
 
Chaddy said:
Just because the papers aren't ranting and raving like some of the nutters on here doesn't mean it isn't getting mentioned. talkSPORT, a radio station that talks about football 24hours a day have talked about Froome, usually questioning a sports journalist at the tour or a cycling author about some of the questions Froome and Sir Dave are facing.

ive seen a few of those, maybe not the ones you have but the ones i have seen or heard all end up with the invited expert reassuring the audience that Lords Bailsford, Wiggins and Chris Froome would never touch drugs.
 
The Hitch said:
ive seen a few of those, maybe not the ones you have but the ones i have seen or heard all end up with the invited expert reassuring the audience that Lords Bailsford, Wiggins and Chris Froome would never touch drugs.

As they have been knighted. I guess this makes them more or less untouchable, right?
 
Jul 15, 2013
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Bratam said:
Interesting post. No doubt Froome is doping alright. Same goes for Mr Porte as well.

I have been reading some news articles from the British Press about Froome and the Sky Team. The Brits don't even seem to question the validity of Froome/Sky's results. I guess it must be easy for Brailsford to fool the local Brit supporters. He has been doing it for a few years now and no one seems to pull him up for his mistruths and lies.

I guess the other thing that worries me about the Brits is their new found addition to Gold medals at the Olympics. Only 10 years ago they would get a small fraction of the medals that Germany or even Australia would get. Now they are suddenly up there with the Americans and Chinese in the medal counts. I know they started spending more money on their sports a few years back, but I still have strong suspicions that doping has been a major part of the success.

Thanks Bratam. I used to work in the mainstream British sports media and can back your view up. Basically, you have to stick to the script. Support and highlight British success and do not put yourself or your employer's head above the parapet. It is no-risk journalism and as mentioned in my last post.. there are too many pay-packets at stake to actually try and do an honest job because that honesty will upset people, ultimately it will be seen as a lack of loyalty.
Remember, these people now (Wiggins, Brailsford etc) are knights of the realm, they have reached the pinnacle of society! The Wiggins, Hoys, Redgraves and Dame Kelly Holmes etc are virtually worshipped as gods by the masses and trust me, the media does not need much encouragement to shove this down our throats at every opportunity.
The honours system here has a lot to answer for when it comes to sport. Its a joke how easily sportsmen are given honours and titles, with zero questions.
In my humble opinion and someone who knows a fair bit, there are huge question marks against some of these names and many others but they are rarely asked by anybody and almost never asked by the BBC and national press.
There is automatically a kind of protection then in place as nobody wants to look stupid down the line and so the farce continues.
This view comes right from the top.. look at how quickly PM Cameron was suggesting Andy Murray should be knighted!
My humble opinion is that sportsmen do it for themselves, not their country. They are very, very well rewarded and their efforts and achievements are enough alone to inspire the next generation without being held up as national heroes and knights.

To your second point, logic follows that when the stakes are potential hero worship, legendary status at the very top of British society and all the money, fame and respect that brings.. for life, the temptation to push the limits are increased tenfold.
Yes, all the money invested into UK Sport is basically state sponsorship with a lot at stake and results expected. It would be naïve not to think that some of the sports have pushed things further than others and the pretty sudden domination in some strongly suggest very advanced methods. :rolleyes:
 
Jul 15, 2013
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kaffenback said:
This is my first post, forgive me if I veer off topic but I want to provide a little context and brief background.. I am from the UK, a former sports journalist and now keen cyclist and although I followed the TDF many years ago (maybe around early 90s to early 00s), interest was renewed only after the sudden emergence of Team Sky, continued success of British Cycling and my own cycling....

wow, if you take out the sports from "former sports journalist" your post is almost an exact fit for me (although possibly wouldn't have gone quite so hyperbolic on froome conclusion at the end :))

kaffenback said:
Maybe spending time in The Clinic is not healthy!! But at least there are some like-minded souls who want to see some morality and honesty in the world of cycling and sport in general. I think they call it pis~ing against the wind!

also very much agree with this heh